Winston wrote:Big question to all:
Suppose Rock has been totally honest and non-delusional in everything he said about Taiwan. Let's him him the benefit of the doubt for a moment.
How then, can you reconcile what he claims about most guys being able to get chicks in Taiwan easily (though not necessarily having their pick of the litter, that's another matter), with my claims about there being a cold wall around Taiwanese girls who do NOT want to be approached by male strangers? The cold wall is very real, it's NOT my imagination, and obviously, no guy is going to feel comfortable approaching a girl who doesn't want to be approached. Duh!
How do you reconcile those two contradictory claims?
Sure you can't say that girls with cold walls around them are approachable to everyone except me? Not even a redneck would be dumb enough to say that!
Also, since over 99 percent of guys don't have the guts to approach girls cold, where are these guys meeting these chicks? Don't you have to be a party animal to meet girls in cliquish societies? Not all guys are of course.
Can anyone here harmonize these two contradictory claims, assuming Rock is honest, and lay to rest this dispute once and for all?
Serious questions to Rock:
Rock,
A lot of your claims are vague. Even reading your past posts, it's not clear what you are claiming exactly. Can you clarify them?
1. Are you claiming that most guys are able to cold approach Taiwan girls in public? Yes or no?
2. How do you explain the fact that 99.99 percent of guys are NOT comfortable approaching a girl in public cold? And the fact that flirtation is not accepted in Taiwan and not liked by Taiwan girls?
3. If Taiwan girls are very approachable, how come no one is approaching them? Not even tall handsome guys are, since it's not socially appropriate. How do you explain that?
4. Where are these majority of guys you know meeting these girls, if they don't cold approach them?
5. Are you claiming that the cold wall I mention around Taiwan girls is not real and just an illusion? Seriously.
If 99 percent of guys aren't comfortable approaching girls cold, then there is no way in hell they would be comfortable approaching girls with cold walls around them. Come on now. Don't insult our intelligence.
We all know that a girl's attitude will rub off around the guys near her. So if a girl is nervous, fearful and closed, then the guy trying to chat her up will feel it too. Her attitude will rub off on him. He will feel nervous, fearful and annoyed as well. Obviously, two people who are nervous and fearful aren't going to chat up each other. It's unavoidable. No guy is going to do well in that situation. Duh.
6. If Taiwan girls are so open, then why are you afraid to approach any girls at the night market? The one here has 100+ hot girls wandering about. You can't even approach 1 out of 100+? If so, then why do you say that they are open and approachable?!?!
7. Do you dare flirt with Taiwan girls, when it's totally taboo here to do that? Can you flirt with girls in their 20's? If not, why do you say that Taiwan is a dating/pick up paradise?
(Flirting in Taiwan is akin to cussing profanity during a church service by the way, it doesn't fit the prudish culture here at all.)
8. Are you claiming that most guys in Taiwan have their pick of the litter, from ugly to hot? If so, why are most white guys dating unattractive Taiwanese girls? Why aren't they all dating hot ones?
If they don't have their pick of the litter and are just settling, then how can it be a dating paradise?
Thanks,
Winston
Winston recently PMd me this post and asked me to address it on the forum. So here goes:
I did not claim "most guys could get chicks in Taiwan" whatever that means. I did however say that I believe a large percentage of 'certain guys' which I defined as younger (up to 30-35), western (meaning white or perhaps dark skinned or black) beta males of average looks give or take a bit, would likely enjoy a large dating and social handicap in Taiwan vis-a-vis the US or other Anglo country as long as they are proactive about meeting local girls - cold approaches, online, networking, etc. Their prospects improve if they have a personality which meshes well with Taiwan and feel comfortable staying here. Softer spoken introverted types with a natural interest in something related to China or Taiwan often fit this bill.
What do I mean by dating handicap? It's the ability to date and be intimate with more, better looking, and younger girls than when in one's reference (Anglo) country. Understand, it's just a handicap though, not a magic wand. A handicap, unless it's extreme, does not enable any guy to get his 'pick of the litter'. Barring all forms of P4P, I don't think there's any country on this planet where you can get anyone you want unless you too are 'the pick of the litter' for most girls.
If you are really are only interested in dating girls who match your exact spec, I think the most effective strategy is to play a numbers game. You go only for girls who fit your type and you try enough times, chances are you can get one in Taiwan if you fall within the scope of 'certain guys' which I defined above. Remember, Taiwan is nothing like the Philippines. You see a large number of attractive girls out and about here on a daily basis here.
Eurobrat, based on info and photos he posted, is likely a solid candidate for the 'Taiwan advantage'. But Winston is not. That's why I recommended long ago that he leave for another country such as China, Thailand, or DR where he might have better luck. However, I have not focused my observations on ABCs here or older guys here so perhaps there may be other attractive opportunities for some guys in these groups as well. It's just that I'm not yet aware of any.
The Taiwan cold wall you perceive means it may require a lot of courage to cold approach. But cold approaching is just one of several ways to meet girls here. It depends on a guy's preferred method(s) and style(s). And this ice barrier you experience here is not absolute. Some are more sensitive to it than others.
To reconcile "most guys are able to get chicks in Taiwan easily" with "there is a cold wall around Taiwanese girls who do not want to be approached by male strangers", I say that the first statement is an exaggeration of what I claimed (certain vs. most) and the second one only applies to some girls and/or depends on who is approaching and how they approach (varies according to approacher and his method). So there are critical nuances which have been missed in your "Big question to all".
In addressing the questions directed specifically to me, I can shed a bit more light on this.
First, if my claims are vague, then why do you often falsely attribute specific concrete claims to me which I never made? When you do that, it derails the discussion.
Now for you 8 questions.
1. I think about anyone can cold approach Taiwan girls in public if they have the courage. So answer is Yes.
2. 99.9% of guys are not comfortable approaching a girl in public cold is not a proven fact. It's just an assumption you've arrived at from your own antidotal experience and discussions with others. Another assumption you make is that "flirtation is not accepted and not liked by Taiwan girls". First of all, I don't agree. Some Taiwan girls do like it under the right circumstances. Secondly, flirting and approaching are not the same thing. Even if a girl does not like for anyone to flirt with her, she may still be open to making friends with strangers who don't flirt.
3. I didn't claim that Taiwan girls are very approachable. But your assumption that no one is approaching them is false. Some of my friends have approached several quite recently. We both approached girls on trips to Taichung too. Just because something is not deemed by some or even most as socially appropriate does not mean no one is doing that as you and I proved last two times we were in Taichung. That's how I explain that.
4. Well the guys I know and have known met Taiwan girls in various ways including cold approaches, online, being approached first by the girl (yes it happens), meeting through friends, meeting through work, meeting through school, language exchanges, etc.
5. The cold wall you mention is an obstacle, but not always impossible to overcome. It's also sometimes relative as I explained above - "The Taiwan cold wall you perceive means it may require a lot of courage to cold approach. But cold approaching is just one of several ways to meet girls here. It depends on a guy's preferred method(s) and style(s). And this ice barrier you experience here is not absolute. Some are more sensitive to it than others.".
To have an effective logical discussion, you need to stop masking your assumptions as facts. 99% of guys are not comfortable approaching girls cold? Certainly not the case in my circle of friends. So don't insult my intelligence.
You talk about a person's attitude rubbing off on guys near her. So if the girl is nervous, fearful, and closed,, the guy trying to chat her up will feel it too. I actually think this depends on the guy. For example, I'm personally more comfortable trying to speak with timid girls than I am approaching overconfident western style chicks who may talk down to me with a hint of sarcasm. It's the latter type which intimidates me the most. Also, not all girls here are necessarily going to be nervous, fearful, and closed when approached. Remember Taichung? What, they weren't young and hot enough? Well, maybe if we had been 10 years younger, we would have had more courage and appeal to the cute 18 year olds we saw all over the train station area.
6. First, I've always been afraid to approach strangers. I grew up as an introverted loner who feared social interactions with my peers, especially females. But, once I started travelling, I managed this fear by breaking out of my comfort zone. I forced myself to approach and interact with hundreds female strangers frequently as if I was an insurance salesman. But I always felt the nervous tension inside. I just became adept at hiding it and not letting it affect my pitch. Secondly, and for the umpteenth time, I never claimed that Taiwan girls are so open. Third, I could approach single girls at a night market but I don't think I've ever been to the one you mention.
7. I normally didn't flirt with girls in Taiwan unless they indicated they are open to it. Generally, I would just express a sincere interest in making friends. If she accepted, then I would establish contact channels and hopefully work up closeness over the phone and dates. In the less common cases where she was visibly interested right off the bat, I might try to establish a seductive banter with her on the spot or over the phone as soon as I called her the first time. Generally, I did not aim for same night pulls. My sweet spot was 3-5 dates with lots of phone and text in between. If the girl really dug me, things would happen faster. If she didn't dig me at all, I generally wouldn't get much past the first date before things fizzled.
Another subtlety to understand is that flirting does not equal dating or intimacy. It's easy to find girls who will flirt with you in certain warmer cultures. But that does not mean they will date you or sleep with you. OTH, just because a girl is publicly reserved does not mean she won't get intimate with you. Just ask Momopi.
BTW, I don't think flirting here is nearly as taboo as you believe, at least in Taipei. In some venues, a lot of it goes on, guys at girls and girls at guys too. It's just usually more subtle and ambiguous (Taiwan style) to allow for face saving. And, its best done between people in same age group. An average looking guy who appears 30+ and directly flirts with 18- 21 year-olds will creep a lot of them out. With that sort of apparent age gap, he should be a lot more subtle and apply a passive strategy.
IMO, Taiwan is a social and dating paradise for many guys who fit my spec above because I believe they can do so much better here than either back at home or in so many other foreign countries.
8. No, I'm not.
Here's what I am saying from above, " I believe that a large percentage of 'certain guys' which I defined as younger (up to 30-35), western (meaning white or perhaps dark skinned or black) beta males of average looks give or take a bit, would likely enjoy a large dating and social handicap in Taiwan vis-a-vis the US or other Anglo country as long as they are proactive about meeting local girls through various means - cold approaches, online, networking, etc." There may also be attractive opportunities for other groups but that has never been the focus of my observation so I have not commented on it.
and
"What do I mean by dating handicap? It's the ability to date and be intimate with more, better looking, and younger girls than when in one's reference (Anglo) country. Understand, it's just a handicap though, not a magic wand. A handicap, unless it's extreme, does not enable any guy can get his 'pick of the litter'. Barring all forms of P4P, I don't think there's any country on this planet where you can get anyone you want unless you too are 'the pick of the litter' for most girls."
As for the answer to why are most white guys dating unattractive Taiwan girls, I believe this is again just your assumption. I actually believe they are more often with attractive girls here than in most if not all other Asian countries based on my personal observations and tastes.
Furthermore, the definition of hot or not is very subjective. Just look at the discussion I've been having with Devil's Advocate regarding a few women I posted vs. girls commonly seen with white guys in PI. What's hot for him is ugly for me and vice-versa.
Even if what you say about white guys only being with unattractive girls in Taiwan were true for 100% of them, that might be due, at least in part, to them choosing girls you find ugly but they happen to prefer.