What is the natural age of consent?

[publicduende]

vatican city; 12 years of age

You did this on purpose so that people can joke about paedo-priests right?
Vatican City has the same age of consent as the rest of Italy, which is 14, not 12.

[publicduende]

^ You really should do some research rather than passively reciting the PC nonsense you have been brainwashed with, just like any common woman. To reiterate, in essentially all societies most women marry soon after going through puberty because that is what works, any contact with young Western women at all would make it clear that they are much worse people for not doing so and "experimenting with their peers" (i.e. getting gangbanged and sodomized by dirtbags), and that they have vastly less dignity than the revered wives and mothers of yesteryear - what with being horrific drunken fat tat-plastered skanks and all. And that is when the resource allocation and police state systems keeping them alive are still existent. When these collapse or are withdrawn, I wonder how much dignity Western skanks will have when they are bashed and raped for a while before being killed and eaten or they starve to death. If they had husbands and families to protect them they might survive what is coming. As it is they will have no chance and they will have manginas like you to thank for their fate.

I am tired to sound like the bigot old hag, but I see this forum constantly testing new lows with the mindless joy of pigs rolling in fresh mud. You really believe it's either the child bride "frozen" in her state of innocence by a precocious marriage, or the slutty single mother of two on welfare, crack and gangbangs, and nothing in between? Is there any space, in your eminent world view, for normal couple with normal women and normal men, who share an idea of life, an idea of family, an idea of common dialectics and fun. Two brains and two souls that touch each other far more and far deeper than what's under their underwear?

What kind of research do you want me to do? As ssjparris listed below, most countries do have an age of consent around or slightly above puberty, but that doesn't mean the majority of adults will want to marry or bond to a girl that young. Unless, and that's what I suspect is your case Cornfed, the adult has the emotional and sexual maturity of a teenager, and the only category of women who won't frustrate his desires to have an easily conditioned, naive and submissive partner is the 12-16 yo.

Well, here's some bad news. You know how modern Western young girls are growing up, right? To find that kind of innocence and candor you so cherish as the virtue of young wives of yesteryear, you would probably have to target a 8, maybe a 10 yo. And that's when you will realise how completely sick and out of order your views of a relationship, of love and respect towards a woman, are.

[EntrepreneurNet]

I just read this whole thread. Hilarious on the amount of debate that is going on!

Thanks: ssjparris for posting the numbers. That was really revealing to me.. I don't know what else to say. Evolution???

[zacb]

My whole point is not to say whether it is moral or not, but rather, to say that the federal (at the very least), state, and local governments should stick to more important issues, like budgeting. I am not saying children should be abused, but that if anyone consents to something, in their free will, the government should not step in.

[Jester]

Are you implying that it's best to marry and/or get a young girl pregnant because she's still young enough to be "non-slutified"?

Yes. This is the conventional wisdom of all societies that last longer than a few generations.

Yes I do find young women attractive, where young means 20, not 14.

Normal men find women that have gone through puberty and are fully developed (full height, hips and breasts etc.) attractive. Their calendar age is not generally an issue.

Quality children come from quality families where both parties are fully aware of the responsibility of bringing up a family, not from an adult wanting to take advantage of an immature child, as in your case.

If recent experience has taught us anything it is that women of any age have no innate concept of responsibility and need to be told what their responsibilities are by men. All the better to do this when they are young and capable of taking instruction.

Now I'm wondering about your model of a real society. What are you talking about? Girls are officially under their parents' responsibility until they're 18. They certainly don't need to be married to an older man to receive further care or assistance.

Actually they do. They need to be in an appropriate adult relationship and shown how to comport themselves in the adult world before they are turned into irresponsible whoreskanks. If you want to know just how disastrous the consequences of this not happening are, go to anywhere in the West and look left and look right. I don't see why there should be any real debate about this when it is easily seen that the current Western state religion of modernity/secular humanism is in fact a suicide cult which is destroying Western civilization as we speak.

+1

I really hope you're not plus-oneing the idea of marrying young girls. I really do.

Didn't you ever read Romeo and Juliet? You're not very romantic!

A young woman who meets the tests Cornfed alluded to... full breasts, full hips, full growth, menstruation, sexual feelings -- knows herself to be an adult, capable of being with and belonging to a man.

And unless she's been slut-indoctrinated by slow-kill-genocide perversion-culture, her natural desire is for just one man, for life. Is it your business to cast a veto, if she gets what she wants the first time around?

You're kind of anti-woman, it seems!

My grandmother was married one month after her first menstruation. To her mother, to whom she had confided, that apparently marked womanhood, and eligibility. She and my grandfather escaped the Turks, escaped Communism, came to America, and raised four children. Both sons became PhD's.

What are your qualifications, again? And tell me again -- how many children have you raised? What's the divorce rate among people that believe like you? And the birthrate? Are you trying to raise others up -- or drag others down?

In the modern world, public, many of us have fallen in love with a woman who has had previous relationships. In fact, many men you meet on expat boards have married a woman with quite a serious "past". Many times the marriage works. (Indeed, if it means anything to you, Jesus himself had a reformed "harlot" in his stepfather's ancestry.) Noone is trying to raise virginity as a pre-requisite for marriageability -- or for sainthood. The question, once a man has found his woman, is not whether she was a virgin when she came to him, but what do you believe in, what do the two of you believe in, and how will the two of you raise your children? Will you require your children to repeat every mistake made by their mother and father?

A teenage girl dreams of lasting romance, of belonging to a man who will be her personal hero. Do you deny her that? And if so - why?

[publicduende]

Didn't you ever read Romeo and Juliet? You're not very romantic!

A young woman who meets the tests Cornfed alluded to... full breasts, full hips, full growth, menstruation, sexual feelings -- knows herself to be an adult, capable of being with and belonging to a man.

And unless she's been slut-indoctrinated by slow-kill-genocide perversion-culture, her natural desire is for just one man, for life. Is it your business to cast a veto, if she gets what she wants the first time around?

You're kind of anti-woman, it seems!

My grandmother was married one month after her first menstruation. To her mother, to whom she had confided, that apparently marked womanhood, and eligibility. She and my grandfather escaped the Turks, escaped Communism, came to America, and raised four children. Both sons became PhD's.

What are your qualifications, again? And tell me again -- how many children have you raised? What's the divorce rate among people that believe like you? And the birthrate? Are you trying to raise others up -- or drag others down?

In the modern world, public, many of us have fallen in love with a woman who has had previous relationships. In fact, many men you meet on expat boards have married a woman with quite a serious "past". Many times the marriage works. (Indeed, if it means anything to you, Jesus himself had a reformed "harlot" in his stepfather's ancestry.) Noone is trying to raise virginity as a pre-requisite for marriageability -- or for sainthood. The question, once a man has found his woman, is not whether she was a virgin when she came to him, but what do you believe in, what do the two of you believe in, and how will the two of you raise your children? Will you require your children to repeat every mistake made by their mother and father?

Jester, you're saying quite a few sweet things I fully agree with. Yet I find it hard to follow your train of thought...though I'll try my best.

Everybody has gone through that special age where falling in love with The Right One, and being reciprocated to the same extent, is the most cherished thought and feeling. I remember those times, and I remember the same manifesting on virtually every other person, male or female, of the same age I would interact with.

Nobody wants to spoil a little girl's dream of meeting Prince Charming and being brought to his castle, where they will live happily thereafter. Having this dream is part of growing. It's the way a girl learns to project her desires of being protected and cared for away from the paternal figure (what Jung called the Electra complex), and starts to see her loving feelings directed outside the family nest. As it is part of growing to have the same dream crushed at the first few disappointments, the first breakup, perhaps on time for the wave of hormone changes that will bring about thoughts much less romantic and more pragmatic and physical in nature.

Your grandmother was from a different time and a different culture, where children were trained to embrace their roles from a very early age and, by virtue of that training, deemed ready to start a family in their early teens. Life expectancy being at least a good 30% less than what it is now meant everything in their lives, good and bad, was compressed and shifted a few years forward. By 16 then a boy would already know the basics of farming, animal husbandry, and defending his property. A girl of the same age or younger would probably know how to cook, mind a small child, do the house chores, sew and decorate, help farming, etc. In those times and cultures, once a young woman learned to be a good housewife, a good mother and a good wife, there wasn't much else left for her to know and do. Their families were aware of that and ensured she would be passed as much as possible of this parcel of wisdom by the time she was 12, or 14.

I appreciate you sharing a bit of your family story. You're of Armenian origins, if I don't go wrong. Your brave grandparents must have seen quite a few momentous things over there: the Ottoman empire crumbling and Ataturk's faux-modern tyrannic rule, the Communists and the spies, things that sounds the stuff of adventure movies, yet probably carried a lot of suffering and sadness of their own. Please feel free to share more of your family stories, as you surely have a great heritage. For how we spoiled grandsons are looking for "happiness abroad", our grandparents would have died only to be "alive abroad".

My granny married at 19, and she was considered a bit on the late side. She was born in New York by the way, her recorded birthplace being somewhere on Wall Street (!), and strangely went back to her hometown when she was 4. My mom married at 24, a virgin. Yet, because of my granny falling sick several times during her childhood, at the tender age of 11 she would already cook for the entire family (7 people), clean the house, mind her brothers and sisters, merely a few years younger than her, and still find the time to go to school and do her homework. She went on to get a humanities degree, the most her strict, curmudgeon father would allow her to get (she wanted to study Medicine instead), and went on to become a high school teacher.

Other times, other stories. And sorry, what do "qualifications" have to do with this? My dad has a Phd (in engineering, as he's a retired university professor), and I have a 5 year engineering degree and two Masters, in Internet engineering and in financial maths. You probably mean being qualified to speak about raising children? well I don't have children and I don't have a clue how to be a good father. What I do know though is that young girls require and deserve to be taught respect for their feelings and their bodies, and not give themselves up to whoever seems to be "the right guy at the right time and place". Saying that I don't attach much value to virginity doesn't mean I would like my daughter to lose her virginity at 12. The only way to ensure that is to instill enough self-respect. It's bad enough now, with all the push towards sexualising children for the sake of multinational profits, and unless total collapse happens and we get thrusted back to a simpler, more rural life, thing could only be worse in, say, 5 or 10 years.

I think we're misunderstanding here. I believe the original claim from the OP was that we should be hooking up with girls before they get "polluted" by the current feminist zeitgeist. The OP and some other posters then reinforced the claim saying that a girl would need a mature boyfriend/husband who could guide her towards discovering love, and obviously sex. Before we knew it, the discussion veered towards condoning, if not encouraging, the idea of a male adult being sexually involved with a young girl as some sort of "mature guide", complementary to her family. Well no, that sounds more like an excuse to "grab the fresh meat" than a genuine attempt to help the young lady with her emotional and sexual development.


Very few parents would be able to stop their daughters from sneaking out of their bedroom windows and f**k their boyfriends at a party, or the modern equivalent of engaging in webcam sex (only Microsoft windows involved ). And yet, even less parents would ever allow a male adult to go and interfere with their daughter's sexual development, let alone propose marriage! Growing up and learning to love is a journey by trials and errors, yet the only guidance a girl should ever need is that of her family, relatives, and actually whoever will want to join in, as long as they keep sexual feelings and dirty thoughts away from their paedagogical mission.


And even with all the good intentions and the best upbringing on the planet, the time of a first sexual encounter could only be delayed by a few years. We are sexual beings and as such we should develop. And if the girl were to turn into a slut, it would be a sign of her family failing to give her the right values and role models to follow.

I then believe my answer to your final question is in my previous posts on this thread. They say "love is blind", and the chance of an adult man finding the Love of His Life in a teenage girl is very possible. Yet what I am wondering is what on Earth an adult man would find worth pursuing a long-term relationship or even marriage, in a girl who, especially in these modern times, is only concerned with posting crap on Facebook, listening to very dubious pop, tapping on their smartphones, gossiping about the latest celebs and drooling over a few pointless fashion items, and perhaps passing some school exams on the side? What cultural, intellectual affinities, what common horizons and plans could a 36 years old like me share with a 15 or 16 years old? Granted, physical attraction could be a significant factor for some (although I am not at all a fan of child-like beauty, I like 'em curvy and well developed). In short: I personally find it very difficult for a healthy adult male to find reasons to pursue a teenager other than a predilection for young bodies and young minds, probably out the idea that a younger girl would be far easier to dominate and shape to one's own will, or perhaps some nostalgia about the traditional girls of 2 or 3 generations ago, who unfortunately have ceased to exist for good. And I'm deliberately omitting the other obvious, much less charitable reason.

[zacb]

My only thing was the legal side of it. I agree that the culture is different. Also, I think it is funny when one culture says "ew", yet we probably do 500 things that are "ew" to them. I guess in addition to the legal aspect, I was saying we should be culturally agnostic when it comes to cultural morals. In other words, morals should be personal, not cultural. So please understand, I am saying is why not introduce libertarian ideals into our law? Live and let live? Because the problem I see is that while some laws have good intentions (this one, among others), they ultimately push the envelope on what the government could or should do. And eventually we get to where we are, were now they are threatening "our" right, in which before it was just the rights of some minorities or "undesirables.

[zacb]

My only thing was the legal side of it. I agree that the culture is different. Also, I think it is funny when one culture says "ew", yet we probably do 500 things that are "ew" to them. I guess in addition to the legal aspect, I was saying we should be culturally agnostic when it comes to cultural morals. In other words, morals should be personal, not cultural. So please understand, I am saying is why not introduce libertarian ideals into our law? Live and let live? Because the problem I see is that while some laws have good intentions (this one, among others), they ultimately push the envelope on what the government could or should do. And eventually we get to where we are, were now they are threatening "our" right, in which before it was just the rights of some minorities or "undesirables.

[OutWest]

I then believe my answer to your final question is in my previous posts on this thread. They say "love is blind", and the chance of an adult man finding the Love of His Life in a teenage girl is very possible. Yet what I am wondering is what on Earth an adult man would find worth pursuing a long-term relationship or even marriage, in a girl who, especially in these modern times, is only concerned with posting crap on Facebook, listening to very dubious pop, tapping on their smartphones, gossiping about the latest celebs and drooling over a few pointless fashion items, and perhaps passing some school exams on the side? What cultural, intellectual affinities, what common horizons and plans could a 36 years old like me share with a 15 or 16 years old? Granted, physical attraction could be a significant factor for some (although I am not at all a fan of child-like beauty, I like 'em curvy and well developed). In short: I personally find it very difficult for a healthy adult male to find reasons to pursue a teenager other than a predilection for young bodies and young minds, probably out the idea that a younger girl would be far easier to dominate and shape to one's own will, or perhaps some nostalgia about the traditional girls of 2 or 3 generations ago, who unfortunately have ceased to exist for good. And I'm deliberately omitting the other obvious, much less charitable reason.

Your description of modern teens is funny but sad...and keep in mind there are many exceptions.I have a not yet 13-year-old daughter from my first marriage. She is growing into a quite attractive girl, no attitude, no interest in celebrities, minor interest in Facebook, and very little interest in pop culture.

She tests at the college freshman level for reading skills and comprehension. Her computer skills are advanced adult- she sets up her own servers and does the admin work on them herself..is very interested in Science and languages, and has old fashioned common sense by the boatload. She does not need to be "taken in hand" but at the same time is very suspicious of anything feminist.
Might she be interested in marriage by age 18? Maybe- we have talked about it.

How did this happen you might ask? Not a single day in US public schools, the cone-head factory.and I have always encouraged her to be an independent thinker. We have a roaring email and chat interchange and she is joining me here in the Philippines this coming year for a while. She and my new wife adore each other...


Overall, her experience in life and the kind of young woman she is growing into bear no resemble to anything discussed on this forum.
One of her biggest wishes this coming year when I am back in the states (To bring her back with me) is that I will put her through a good combat firearms training regimen. to whatever degree she can handle.

It IS possible to be different, and girls can still grow up the way she is now.


Outwest
Mindanao, Philippines

[zacb]

Cornfed:No. What I am saying is we give government this. Then we let them take away drugs, then insider trading, then ban cigarettes, then Christians meeting in their own home. What next? And while some of the above laws protect stupidity (children growing up in a culture than indoctrinates them with stupidity, insider trading, product bans, etc.), then it leads to taking away of rights from what most people would consider "normal" people. (example: Patriot Act) I don't know how you would get genocide out of any laws that I have mentioned, except if you mean it violates the NAP (non-aggression principle). If that is the case, then yeah, you are right. All I was saying is to most people, those laws make sense, and don't question the potential outcome. Which leads to bad laws that affects everyone, not just society's outcasts.

[publicduende]

I don't know how you would get genocide out of any laws that I have mentioned

It is very simple. The policy in question -preventing young women from marrying - is part of a suite of policies openly designed to suppress the birthrate of the target population. These policies have succeeded in suppressing the birthrates of almost all white Western populations below replacement level. If a population doesn’t breed at replacement level for long enough it goes extinct, as elementary school mathematics should tell you. If you replace the target population with immigrants, put toxins in food etc. then this will obviously hasten them on their way. Common sense would suggest that a tipping point will be reached where the target populations will simply be massacred, but even if this does not occur and things just keep on the way they are going, in 100 years time the white race will have essentially ceased to exist. So genocide.

What has marrying got to do with genocide? You know how weak is the institution of marriage is in the UK, yet you will agree with me they have a healthy birth rate. Sure, many of those kids will be from young single moms on welfare and families broken beyond recovery, yet birth statistics make no difference between Prince William's son and Essex Pearly Queen's. And sure, more and more first-class world children are replaced, on a purely statistical basis, by kids from immigrant families. Big deal. You really think the only or better policy to get women to have more kids is to marry them young?

On another post, PAN says I should have respect for you simply out of your seniority (= age). I don't even know what your biological age is, but I can surely tell your mental age from most of your posts. Between 13 and 16. And a pretty messed up 16 at that.

[publicduende]

I then believe my answer to your final question is in my previous posts on this thread. They say "love is blind", and the chance of an adult man finding the Love of His Life in a teenage girl is very possible. Yet what I am wondering is what on Earth an adult man would find worth pursuing a long-term relationship or even marriage, in a girl who, especially in these modern times, is only concerned with posting crap on Facebook, listening to very dubious pop, tapping on their smartphones, gossiping about the latest celebs and drooling over a few pointless fashion items, and perhaps passing some school exams on the side? What cultural, intellectual affinities, what common horizons and plans could a 36 years old like me share with a 15 or 16 years old? Granted, physical attraction could be a significant factor for some (although I am not at all a fan of child-like beauty, I like 'em curvy and well developed). In short: I personally find it very difficult for a healthy adult male to find reasons to pursue a teenager other than a predilection for young bodies and young minds, probably out the idea that a younger girl would be far easier to dominate and shape to one's own will, or perhaps some nostalgia about the traditional girls of 2 or 3 generations ago, who unfortunately have ceased to exist for good. And I'm deliberately omitting the other obvious, much less charitable reason.

Your description of modern teens is funny but sad...and keep in mind there are many exceptions.I have a not yet 13-year-old daughter from my first marriage. She is growing into a quite attractive girl, no attitude, no interest in celebrities, minor interest in Facebook, and very little interest in pop culture.

She tests at the college freshman level for reading skills and comprehension. Her computer skills are advanced adult- she sets up her own servers and does the admin work on them herself..is very interested in Science and languages, and has old fashioned common sense by the boatload. She does not need to be "taken in hand" but at the same time is very suspicious of anything feminist.
Might she be interested in marriage by age 18? Maybe- we have talked about it.

How did this happen you might ask? Not a single day in US public schools, the cone-head factory.and I have always encouraged her to be an independent thinker. We have a roaring email and chat interchange and she is joining me here in the Philippines this coming year for a while. She and my new wife adore each other...


Overall, her experience in life and the kind of young woman she is growing into bear no resemble to anything discussed on this forum.
One of her biggest wishes this coming year when I am back in the states (To bring her back with me) is that I will put her through a good combat firearms training regimen. to whatever degree she can handle.

It IS possible to be different, and girls can still grow up the way she is now.

I am in awe. Did you raise her yourself? I can interpret your "not a single day in US public school" as her either going to a private school, or being homeschooled. Which one is it? See what I mean, when I say there are indeed examples of nice, serious, decent and balanced women, or women-in-the-making?

[publicduende]

You know how weak is the institution of marriage is in the UK, yet you will agree with me they have a healthy birth rate

No, they don't. They have a fertility rate of 1.94 births per woman, which is an extinction birth rate - lower still for the white population. Just google "fertility rate UK". You keep making up complete nonsense and posting it here. Do you actually know anything about anything or do any research at all?

Here my man. Cornfed or spoon-fed? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_so ... birth_rate
You will clearly see than UK, together with France, has one of the highest birth rates in first world countries. And reason for that is certainly not because women are child-farrowing bitches. It's because, coincidentally, both France and the UK have relatively good welfare nets that include child benefits, maternity and paternity leave, subsidies for food, kindergardens etc. Have a look and drawn your own conclusions.

[Cornfed]

You know how weak is the institution of marriage is in the UK, yet you will agree with me they have a healthy birth rate

No, they don't. They have a fertility rate of 1.94 births per woman, which is an extinction birth rate - lower still for the white population. Just google "fertility rate UK". You keep making up complete nonsense and posting it here. Do you actually know anything about anything or do any research at all?

Here my man. Cornfed or spoon-fed? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_so ... birth_rate
You will clearly see than UK, together with France, has one of the highest birth rates in first world countries.

Yes, and the entire first world has extinction birthrates, and the only reason the UK and France are not going extinct quite as fast is because of their relatively fecund immigrant populations.

As to welfare for single skanks to breed, like most things the extinction agenda has had to be phased in and sold to its targets. Salesmen function largely by overcoming objections. The objection young women have to not getting married and instead becoming childless whores is "What if I want to be a mother one day?" to which the answer is "No worries, you can do it on some form of welfare". However, even with the welfare the system is set up to economically reward a lower birthrate. Once the idea of fecund families is well and truly dead the welfare can be reduced and ultimately withdrawn, as is happening.

[OutWest]

I then believe my answer to your final question is in my previous posts on this thread. They say "love is blind", and the chance of an adult man finding the Love of His Life in a teenage girl is very possible. Yet what I am wondering is what on Earth an adult man would find worth pursuing a long-term relationship or even marriage, in a girl who, especially in these modern times, is only concerned with posting crap on Facebook, listening to very dubious pop, tapping on their smartphones, gossiping about the latest celebs and drooling over a few pointless fashion items, and perhaps passing some school exams on the side? What cultural, intellectual affinities, what common horizons and plans could a 36 years old like me share with a 15 or 16 years old? Granted, physical attraction could be a significant factor for some (although I am not at all a fan of child-like beauty, I like 'em curvy and well developed). In short: I personally find it very difficult for a healthy adult male to find reasons to pursue a teenager other than a predilection for young bodies and young minds, probably out the idea that a younger girl would be far easier to dominate and shape to one's own will, or perhaps some nostalgia about the traditional girls of 2 or 3 generations ago, who unfortunately have ceased to exist for good. And I'm deliberately omitting the other obvious, much less charitable reason.

Your description of modern teens is funny but sad...and keep in mind there are many exceptions.I have a not yet 13-year-old daughter from my first marriage. She is growing into a quite attractive girl, no attitude, no interest in celebrities, minor interest in Facebook, and very little interest in pop culture.

She tests at the college freshman level for reading skills and comprehension. Her computer skills are advanced adult- she sets up her own servers and does the admin work on them herself..is very interested in Science and languages, and has old fashioned common sense by the boatload. She does not need to be "taken in hand" but at the same time is very suspicious of anything feminist.
Might she be interested in marriage by age 18? Maybe- we have talked about it.

How did this happen you might ask? Not a single day in US public schools, the cone-head factory.and I have always encouraged her to be an independent thinker. We have a roaring email and chat interchange and she is joining me here in the Philippines this coming year for a while. She and my new wife adore each other...


Overall, her experience in life and the kind of young woman she is growing into bear no resemble to anything discussed on this forum.
One of her biggest wishes this coming year when I am back in the states (To bring her back with me) is that I will put her through a good combat firearms training regimen. to whatever degree she can handle.

It IS possible to be different, and girls can still grow up the way she is now.

I am in awe. Did you raise her yourself? I can interpret your "not a single day in US public school" as her either going to a private school, or being homeschooled. Which one is it? See what I mean, when I say there are indeed examples of nice, serious, decent and balanced women, or women-in-the-making?

Raised by myself and my ex...more than half of her time has been with me and since she gets such compliments, which my ex finds flattering, she pretty well sticks to the routine I insist on. The last two years has been busy so she has been more with my ex, but now she is coming to spend time in the Philippines again.

She has been mostly home schooled and now she is deciding if she wants to spend time in a private school for high school or continue with home schooling. Most likely she will opt for home schooling as she can zoom and will likely graduate from high school by the time she is 16. She then wants to spend a year traveling with me.

Outwest