18 year old disillusioned in Taiwan after night out

[air_king]

It's true. In Asia, Taiwan is probably the worst place I've seen...how the heck did i end up here haha it was pertty good when i first got here 20yrs ago....but it has changed SOOO much since then

[Rock]

1. I've been to SW China too and almost felt I was in another country. Virtually none of the girls I saw there appealed to me physically.

2. I'm not sure how open and friendly more mainstream areas of China in Tier 1-2 cities (or even Tier 3-4 for that matter) really are. I can't say people made much more eye contact with me there than in Taiwan. But then, I'm not hypersensitive to this the way Winston and some others seem to be. My shyness reflex which has stayed with me since childhood is to avoid direct gazes myself so I often miss the dynamics. Like here in the Phils, people I'm with will sometimes tell me that a lot of people keep looking at us. Yet I almost never notice this myself.

3. Yes Winston put me on the phone with a couple of his mainland gals and they seemed friendly and personable and all. But during our conversation, one of them was openly wondering what he wanted the two of use to talk about and I pretty much voiced the same sentiment, lol. OTH, I also put Winston on phone with my ex and I think he found her to be very engaging and friendly too lol. I'm sure I could find some more Taiwan girls to be friendly on the phone with Winston but those are just anecdotes, not representative of much as Lad likes to say.

4. Taiwan has not developed much economically in last decade the way China has. But Facebook, smartphones, etc. have still had their impact so it's gonna be different now in some ways at least.

5. Every indication I've seen from Falcon so far suggests that yes, Taiwan is not the place for him dating wise. But Phils, as far as girls and people are concerned, would likely fit him well. I already stated this observation in another post.

6. Xiongmao, I don't much agree with you that Taiwan is such a good place for older guys as far as dating is concerned. I've said so much before in various posts in the past. But on the flip side, older people often seek comfort, predictability, safety, good manners, first world conveniences, value-for-money, cleanliness, etc; maybe decent job prospects too. Taipei definitely provides all of those things.

7. Keep in mind that the generational gap Falcon refers to applies to your parents too Winston! Being in Chiayi County only compounds the gulf between them and local urban youth culture of Taipei today. During most of martial law era, discos and clubs were virtually banned in Taiwan. Things started to loosen up a lot after CKS's son took the helm after his father's death in 1976 given his very different personality and outlook. So Taiwan started to become a lot more interesting socially after that even though martial law remained in effect until late 80s. For a period, westerners were often seen as pop culture icons and if you read through the archives of Forumosa, you will learn of an era where some clubs even granted free admission to western looking foreigners while charging a steep entrance fee to locals (including girls lol). The attitudes about westerners gained traction even as Taiwan rapidly developed economically in 80s and 90s. Certain girls made a beeline to the world of foreign men to escape the political and social repression of Taiwan. And there was a relative wealth gap which worked in favor of foreigners too. In fact, foreign English instructors were once quite well paid (respective to local wage levels) and respected as teachers according to Chinese culture too.

Today, you still have a certain cultural repression remaining with Taiwanese tho it's much different politically of course. Personally, and this is just my own bias, I appreciate some outer effects of this repression. It keeps people in line and makes the society a harmonious and easy place to exist in as a lone introvert. If you make friends and connections with certain people, you can have a great time with them and nobody will bother you.

You can take social short-cuts by abandoning certain societal comfort zones and breaking the unspoken rules. If you are polite, friendly, and give people face, no harm will be done. People will generally not be angry at you or feel bad. And sometimes you will get lucky. On the outside, everyone may look like repressed robots. But on the inside, there are many different worlds. 一種米養百種人 (The same type of rice raises up a hundred types of different people). Taiwan has a lot of introverts among it's young and some are individualists or looking for something new.

8. I still have every confidence that I could get a guy like Sinbadsailor hooked-up in Taiwan with multiple attractive young local girls if he does the right things and looks mature enough.

9. I arrive Taipei after midnight tomorrow (Saturday) night. I got a 1,400 Peso all-in Cebu Pacific promo fare Manila to Taipei.

[Falcon]

1. I've been to SW China too and almost felt I was in another country. Virtually none of the girls I saw there appealed to me physically.

In terms of personality, vibe, and looks, many SW Chinese women really seem more like Burmese, Laotian, and Vietnamese women than like the others in China. Culturally and linguistically, SW China really is much closer to Burma, Laos, and Vietnam.

Winston doesn't seem to be attracted by rural SW Chinese women either. I showed him a girl I went out with in a SE Yunnan, and Winston said she looked like she's "from the boondocks" because of her "rugged looks." When I'd show him the Yunnan women, Winston would often immediately blurt out, "Why don't you date / take pictures of the hot ones?"

Winston's friend Natalya (who's registered on the ladies' forum) said that she looks really cute, sweet, and even introverted though.

5. Every indication I've seen from Falcon so far suggests that yes, Taiwan is not the place for him dating wise. But Phils, as far as girls and people are concerned, would likely fit him well. I already stated this observation in another post.

6. Xiongmao, I don't much agree with you that Taiwan is such a good place for older guys as far as dating is concerned. I've said so much before in various posts in the past.

... On the outside, everyone may look like repressed robots.

OK Winston, there ya go, more points for you! "I was right all along! Even Rock was forced to admit that Taiwan is not a dating paradise! Take that!" Haha, but whatever his views, you'd really have to admit that his incredible knowledge and familiarity with Taiwan are absolutely indispensable, like Momopi's.

Since I speak Mandarin fluently, I'd be in a different position than Winston or Xiongmao would be in. However, my Mandarin doesn't sound entirely Taiwanese, as I interact with mostly non-Taiwanese when speaking Chinese. In Bangkok, while I was talking to some mainland Chinese women with Everdred and Xiongmao, the Chinese women said that I sounded much more like I was from Hong Kong or Singapore, since my Chinese sounded more "international" and didn't have that much of a Taiwanese twang.

I really want to take a side trip to the Philippines while in Taiwan, even though my relatives would all say it's dangerous and backwards.

3. Yes Winston put me on the phone with a couple of his mainland gals and they seemed friendly and personable and all. But during our conversation, one of them was openly wondering what he wanted the two of use to talk about and I pretty much voiced the same sentiment, lol.

This comes really naturally to me, since I start talking about culture, language, history, and geography right away. I easily chatted with the Chinese women on the phone for maybe an hour or more with each. Winston didn't seem to have as much of a variety of things to say, other than about his typical HA stuff.

[Winston]

Sinbadsailor,
Check out this letter I received last week from someone named Henry, another guy who like you is not afraid to tell the truth about Taiwan. He makes some good points too.

Dear Mr Wu:

My name is Henry and nice meeting you.

May I say something?

America is not a western country. It is a Jewish country with Greek-Roman system of government administration. However, even the ways administrations are carried out, it is Jewish.

America denounced the British way of things after Independence. The British/Western way are the very thing Americans hate, hate to the bones. They adopted the Jewish ways.

Americans, especially in the silicon valley, are very very superficial, very eastern! Do not ever think The US is a western country.

I truly lived in a western country before, so I know the difference.

Americans are like plastic mannequins with a smile whereas Taiwanese are like plastic mannequins with no facial expression.

I think the two societies are very similar and you mentioned that before. However, I think Taiwan society is not as hypocritical. People are just rude in Taiwan and cold. Americans have a smile but you approach them, you know they are very cold.

Taiwan girls are no doubt the most beautiful in Asia, and are comparable to the most beautiful females in the world, but most of them have several issues make them extremely unattractive.

1)Most of them are very cold, very unapproachable, very stuck-up.
2)Even if you can approach them, you find most of them are very simple, very narrow minded, you can not connect with them intellectually. If you try, they think you are strange and begin to alienate you.
3)Most of them get angry with you easily, for no reason at all, they make something out of nothing to lash out at you.
4)If you say Taiwan girls are simple, you may be in for a rude surprise. They have a lot of hidden messages, meta-messages when they talk, that you have to construe.

[Winston]

3. Yes Winston put me on the phone with a couple of his mainland gals and they seemed friendly and personable and all. But during our conversation, one of them was openly wondering what he wanted the two of use to talk about and I pretty much voiced the same sentiment, lol. OTH, I also put Winston on phone with my ex and I think he found her to be very engaging and friendly too lol. I'm sure I could find some more Taiwan girls to be friendly on the phone with Winston but those are just anecdotes, not representative of much as Lad likes to say.

Well only one of the women I had you talk to also talked to Falcon. But she was busy at the time and didn't have much time to chat. On the other hand, Falcon and I talked to all three of them for a long time. Also, Falcon seemed to be very good with them in that he got them to open up and feel comfortable talking to him. His Chinese was also excellent and fluent. The girls even asked me why my Chinese wasn't as good as his. lol. His explanation was that his parents are KMT and so speak Mandarin with him, whereas mine speak Taiwanese with me.

The good news is that Falcon told me that many girls in China he met, even on buses, were just as friendly, engaging, and down to earth as the ones he talked to with me on the phone. In other words, such easy to connect with girls in China are common, not exceptions. We both agreed that they were a breath of fresh air compared to trying to connect with snotty airheads in America. Also, when girls are easy to connect with, it sort of makes you feel "validated".

6. Xiongmao, I don't much agree with you that Taiwan is such a good place for older guys as far as dating is concerned. I've said so much before in various posts in the past. But on the flip side, older people often seek comfort, predictability, safety, good manners, first world conveniences, value-for-money, cleanliness, etc; maybe decent job prospects too. Taipei definitely provides all of those things.

Maybe, but you forgot something. Xiongmao isn't seeking younger women. He often dated older women in China, and if he does the same in Taiwan, he may do ok since many older women in Taiwan are still relatively down to earth. It's the young ones that aren't.

Btw Rock, in case you don't know, the person who posted above as "air king" agreeing with me, Falcon and Sinbadsailor, is our mutual buddy Sean, from your city of Taipei.

[Falcon]

The good news is that Falcon told me that many girls in China he met, even on buses, were just as friendly, engaging, and down to earth as the ones he talked to with me on the phone. In other words, such easy to connect with girls in China are common, not exceptions.

Absolutely true! I've met at least 3 or 4 girls on buses and minivans in the SW Chinese countryside, that are now talking to me regularly on QQ. They're view me as an impressive, high-caliber guy who's pleasant to talk to. They'd be just like the lady from southern Hunan that we talked to, if not even friendlier.

4)If you say Taiwan girls are simple, you may be in for a rude surprise. They have a lot of hidden messages, meta-messages when they talk, that you have to construe.

Several people in Yunnan have told me that dating in Yunnan is simple and innocent. You don't hear this about Taiwanese dating anymore. Even my parents tell me that Taiwanese dating has gotten really complicated, which is also compounded with declining marriage and birth rates.

[Falcon]

5. Every indication I've seen from Falcon so far suggests that yes, Taiwan is not the place for him dating wise. But Phils, as far as girls and people are concerned, would likely fit him well. I already stated this observation in another post.

Not just the Phils, but also rural NE Thailand from my experience.

This is how my Thai gf and I dance together. The music is fast and aggressive, like Latin American cumbia and merengue. It's impossible to imagine Taiwanese dancing like this! Even if they try, you can imagine it will be quite forced and unnatural for them.



Taiwanese pop music is soft and mellow. Or put more bluntly, wimpy. Rock said that Taiwanese like to be soft (吃軟), which is what Jay Chou certainly epitomizes.

[Winston]

Check out what the guy who wrote me that letter above said next. It's very interesting how he compares the US, New Zealand, Taiwan, and mainland China. What he says about Taiwan and Silicon Valley, CA being "not alive" is so true.

Winston, I just turned 36 years old. I left Taiwan when I was 11 and I lived in New Zealand for four years and then in 1992 I came to The US and have been living in US ever since. I lived in California for 3 years, in silicon valley and then in Texas since.

New Zealand is purely a British, western society. When I came to US, it really gave me a shock. The US is absolute strange, because it has a British system of administration with a Jewish mentality. I guess Hong Kong and Singapore are very strange too, because they also have a British system of administration but it is done with a Chinese mentality.

Americans, especially in California, and especially in silicon valley, can't tolerate differences. British society tolerate differences up to a certain point, but Americans can't, especially in silicon valley. You are supposed to keep people distant and act politically correct, say only things that people perceive to be true, only the good things. This is true especially in California and especially in silicon valley. In America, especially in the silicon valley, you try to be yourself, in high school, they will get you psychological help.

In America, people gets kids ritalin, get them drugged because they can't conform in school. I remembered when I was in Taiwan, my elementary school teacher wanted to get me psychological help. However, I never remember anyone getting drugged in New Zealand, in school. I guess, there was nothing wrong with these kids, it is the system that force them to conform!

I guess Taiwan is so similar to America, because of this eastern thinking, this narrow minded, superficiality. I guess, if I had never been to New Zealand and just came to the US from Taiwan, I would not have had so many problems in the US. I really acquired western thinking in New Zealand. Taiwan has this west coast US feeling, it really does, this silicon valley feeling, sterile. However, I thought silicon valley was worse than Taiwan, but probably that was 20 years ago! Contemporary Taiwan is probably as bad as silicon valley. In the US, especially in the silicon valley(I guess west coast the same except not as strong, not as pronounced as silicon valley) people feel like plastic mannequins with a smile and in Taiwan people feel like plastic mannequins with no facial expression.

New Zealand and mainland China feel alive. British are hurtful but they feel alive. Most of them will hurt you but some will love you. So, you have a lot of hurt with some love. You feel alive. In Mainland China, you have people loving you, hurting you, nonchalant about you. But strangely, Mainland China feels alive.

[Winston]

Here is the next letter from him. Wow he is so insightful and truthful. His point about America and Taiwan not being "alive" is so true, because:

1. You are expected to be distant and not talk to people.
2. You are expected to act like a plastic mannequin.
3. If you talk, you are expected to be very politically correct.

So true! How come even the alternative media doesn't talk about these things? They aren't discussed outside of HappierAbroad for some reason. We sure are unique.

Dear Winston:

Something very interesting that I forgot to share with you on my previous e-mail.

When I was in Taiwan, when I was young, I always got this label, you are incessantly talkative.
When I was young, my mother said to me: if someone say this and that about you, you listen, there has to be some reasons why people say that.
I obeyed my mother and I thought, may be I was. But I continued to get into trouble with Taiwanese people and I was lost for many years.

Later I came to the US from New Zealand, I thought, both countries speak English, and my father said:if you lived in New Zealand, you adjust to The US almost immediate. I thought both countries are similar.
As a result,　I approached my high school teachers, associated with them, talked to them. But soon, I was called in by some psychologist to counsel me?
No one told me the US is a Jewish country, very similar to Taiwan. I thought it was a western country.

That angered me until today, because my mother always told me, if someone say this or that, you did something wrong! But at the time, even thou I did not do anything wrong, I thought I probably did and I was lost for many years.

But I did not, something were really wrong with these people.

In Taiwan and in The US, especially in the west coast, and especially in silicon valley, you have to be distant with people, do not talk, do not bother people, act like a plastic mannequin and fit in. Speak only in a politically correct way. No one told me this before. You are not supposed to feel alive.
In Taiwan, even you fit you, people still attack you, to try to tell you that you are strange, even thou you are not.
In the US, you just fit in and keep people distant, that is all.
But both places, do not talk, do not bother people, keep your distance and act like a plastic and remember to speak politically correctly only.
Look at all the franchise shops in the US, does it look like a country that accept diversity?

[xiongmao]

Well I'll have to give Taiwan a go.

I'm not really interested in dating 20 somethings (at least for a long term thing). I still like the older KTV lady, even if my pinyin is so terrible I haven't progressed to asking her out!

Actually I'm flopping hard in Thailand, it's freaking hard to get a date online, maybe 99% of the girls on dating sites are just there to make $$$$ from guys who are chatting to them online from the USA or other countries. I've never lived anywhere there's been so many ATM's or Western Union places - just the thing from collecting your loot from your part-time bf.

Anyway, my plan B is to hang out in shopping malls looking for nice ladies. Well I've found my mall but the food is so good there I'm losing interest in the women!

I had a really tempting job offer in the Phillies, but again I've turned it down as I don't want to go back to living in a country with horrible food. Plus I'd be worried about personal safety. So many people get robbed there, and the police are useless.

There is one BIG advantage of Thailand - the climate. I feel much better here than I ever did in Southern China. It's ferociously hot here, but it's not as humid. So the body can keep cool a lot more naturally. Millions of people can't be wrong about which Asian country is best to visit or to live in.

It's also easy to live a simple, non-consumerist lifestyle here as well. I'm happy in my tiny studio, and I just really buy food here (which is incredibly good).

I'm not sure about that poster writing that mainland China was alive though. There's next to no culture there and people don't know what to do when they're not working.

[Repatriate]

Actually I'm flopping hard in Thailand, it's freaking hard to get a date online, maybe 99% of the girls on dating sites are just there to make $$$$ from guys who are chatting to them online from the USA or other countries. I've never lived anywhere there's been so many ATM's or Western Union places - just the thing from collecting your loot from your part-time bf.

Try Thai love links. It's the most popular dating site. I think there is a problem with being a middle aged white guy in that it's the largest foreign tourist demographic by far. You have to set yourself apart somehow or settle for subpar Thai women or p4p.

Just take your time when looking for Thai women because there are lots of bad ones out there too. The most aggressive women whether it be in regular night clubs or online are usually not so good. The shy demure ones who don't speak much english are the best.

[Banano]

Xiongmao

you are not the only one who flopped in TH,
its not easy to meet chicks on DIA or Thai friendly, as you said 99% are p4p, it unofficial escort service. Lots of LBs and hardened sluts.

p4p is ok but after a while you get bored with women that only want your $$.

I stayed in guesthouse next to Rex hotel, its good area btw.
Sometimes I think TH is overrated when it comes to girls, take away p4p and getting regular chicks isn't always easy

[E Irizarry R&B Singer]

It has a lot of Indian elements to this song. I can imagine Carlos Santana producing this gem. lol

[sinbadsailor]

Sinbadsailor

I'll be back in Taipei at the end of this month. If you really wanna meet and date local girls, I think I can help get you sorted out.

Yeah I would love to. I just started to take Chinese classes at Normal University and there are a lot of good looking foreign girls there, especially in the library. I have a pretty busy schedule but pm me we will work it out and maybe do a report on here or something.

[sinbadsailor]

Welcome Sinbadsailor.



How do you look? Have you tried dating sites there? If all else fails, just get a pro for 3,000 NT. The taxi drivers will tell you where to go and take you. Or go to China or Thailand. People are far more open there and easier to connect with.

Comparison example: In Taiwan, women don't make eye contact when they walk. They either look down on the ground or straight ahead. Their eyes never make contact with yours. They don't look around. But in China they do, according to our members' trip reports. Even Falcon told me that they do. In China, women will make eye contact and return your gaze. To me, that's normal.

Keep in mind the historical changes of the two countries. Taiwan has been modernized for a long time now, and the culture is now turning into a cynical, stuck up, and egoistical culture. China, on the other hand, has just begun modernizing. So they are more like the 1920's of America (flappers, parties, Great Gatsbys).