Dianne's greed getting out of control, what should I do?

[Winston]

Hey swincor, what you are seeing is the "canned debate" paradigm. Its very VERY evident over at the american women suck webpage. Basically, its an attempt to create faux discussion where no conclusion is reached, but the goal is to incite drama via rhetorical questions and non-replies. Consider it the internet version of jerry springer. It goes something like this;

OP: OMFG! my girl robbed me and stole my car and drained my bank account and ran off with the mailman! why is she being so mean to me?

Reply: Dude thats insane, get out of that relationship before it gets worse!

OP: your crazy I never said I was unhappy, Im in complete control of the relationship you asshole!

The problem with this is that it puts up a pretty dismal face of "western men traveling overseas" that newbies would be repulsed by. I guess I could start my own webpage, but my marriage is happy, functional, and low maintained.

W: You forget, a lot of guys wanting to date women overseas are seeking a playboy or whoremongering lifestyle, not a stable monogamous relationship. I am still happier abroad, and I can always enjoying dating different hot or cute girls, regardless. That itself is an inspiration to others. Relationships go up and down all the time. No one said it had to be happily ever after. No one can completely control their circumstances or other people. You know that.

Therefore, I am not a bad example to others. I am still doing what other guys dream of. And happy doing it as well. You should have seen the hot girls I've met the past few days. I kept thinking that I was a dream! Owwwwwwww!

[Winston]

There's a wide range of mental and physical conditions that may cause fatigue. The most common one is that the person is simply not used to being physically active. Considering the weather in PH, I'd lean toward the swimming pool or the beach. Does Dianne know how to swim? If you can get her in the pool to do laps, she'd build up her mental and physical capabilities.

Don't be stupid. Winston's problem will not be solved by having Dianne swim laps in the pool. And it also won't be solved by taking Dianne to Taiwan.

Simply put, Dianne is way out of her league in her current situation, much like Winston. She lacks the character and maturity to handle her role as wife and mother, and her poor, low-class background makes her incapable of dealing with money issues maturely or intelligently. She is simply incompatible with a western-style middle class existence. This problem will be solved when Winston cuts his ties to Dianne's family, which means not only leaving Dianne, but also his kid who is tying him to his miserable situation.

W: Your observations are right for once Swincor. I think momopi was trying to solve this problem as he would a computer program. LOL The thing is, to understand people and relationships, it takes more than logic or academic skills, it takes the ability to see the big picture and a grasp of psychological dynamics.

Swincor's assessment above is probably largely correct. But why give up? Where is your faith? Remember at the end of Rocky IV, after he beat Drago, he said to the Russian audience, "If I can change, and you can change, everybody can change!"

BTW, even though Dianne is lazy with low energy, she does have good skills with babies. She changes diapers very well, feeds the baby very well, handles him like a natural, and tends to his daily needs efficiently, She is skillful and adept at reading the baby's needs, signals and body language, in a way that I could never match. It is probably a maternal thing. But she is efficient at it, perhaps because her heart is in it, so she musters the energy for it. She cleans very well too, when she wants to.

Therefore, I'd say she's a qualified capable mother. But as you said, not capable of having middle class civilized values or behavior. And comes from a survivalist mentality family that basically doesn't give a shit about morals and places no value on right and wrong. The wise old expat I met was right in that people like them will be exactly the same 10 years later. They live in a routine that never progresses, expands or changes, except of course, when their living standards are increased by outside sources, such as the new house they live in for instance.

And sadly, Dianne can not overcome her brainwashing to serve them. I've told her that she is brainwashed, but she doesn't care. She says "I don't want to be selfish and forget my family." This means that even if the family sucks, her purpose in life is still to help and support them.

I can only hope that they don't brainwash my baby into thinking that his purpose in life is to support them. Hopefully, he will have my critical thinking genes and be able to think outside that. lol

Maybe, if this thread and forum are still around when he grows up, I will have him read it so he can learn the truth about what was going on and draw his own conclusions.

[momopi]

W: I don't think it's lack of exercise. I've met such types before. Some are just like that, they just love pleasure and relaxation too much to put up with any pain. It's not a habit or learned condition. That's just them.
<snip>
BTW momopi, I've been trying to take Dianne to Taiwan for a long time now, but the problems, bad luck, and bad timings we've had getting her a passport are so complicated, that I don't even want to try to begin to describe them. Don't even get me started. It's insane.

Chronic indolence is usually caused by physical or psychological condition (or both). If the external environment accepts such behavior, it'd make things worse. Let's take education as an example. If the teacher is unmotivated, her students will be given inferior education with unchallenging homework. Quoting Stanford researcher on the effects:

"If two average 8-year-olds are assigned to different teachers, one who is strong and one who is weak, the children's lives can diverge in just a few years, according to research pioneered by Eric Hanushek at Stanford. The child with the effective teacher, the kind who ranks among the top 15% of all teachers, will be scoring well above grade level on standardized tests by the time she is 11. The other child will be a year and a half below grade level--and by then it will take a teacher who works with the child after school and on weekends to undo the compounded damage. In other words, the child will probably never catch up."

Physical fitness is an important part of preventing lethargy. Good schools will impose fitness regimens to keep its students physically healthy. Swimming is good because it exercises all your muscles, plus the pool is nice and cool, and you get to see chics in swim suits. Even if the person can't swim, you could put them in shallow pools and just let them waddle around.

As for the VISA issue, have you asked your parents to assist? My parents in TW have hired several maids from PH in the past without issue. Maybe you could have your parents talk to one of the domestic help agencies and see if they could offer any suggestions on how to file the VISA app.

[Grunt]

Well said, swincor. Winstons escapades of late are hardly a shining example of male freedom and opportunity. Had I read this back in 1997 I would have decided to stay home.

[Island Bum]

This is my first post here. A buddy told me about the site and I figured I could learn a lot from it.

I have been following this thread with interest. I must say that I am disappointed in Winston in that he has created a real mess for himself. I thought that he would be a teacher for us, something like a monger guru, but now I’m not so sure. I’ve been married to a Thai woman for over 30 years now, and I have lived and worked in Thailand, Philippines, Korea, and Japan, so I have some knowledge of the issues you are facing.

I don’t know how or where you found Dianne, and that isn’t really important. However, I will say if I were single, still in my 30’s, and looking for a relationship, that I think I could have found a nice smart girl with a college degree who could have made a real good lifetime companion. The Internet and Manila newspapers are full of personal ads from decent middle class Filipinas, and a casting of the net would have eventually brought in a keeper. Bargirls are fun to play with, but I think a reasonably educated, mature and sober American male should know better than to get heavily involved with them.

The most significant fact is that you have had a baby with Dianne. This creates serious legal implications, as a court in the Philippines can assess child support just like a court in the USA. And child support lasts roughly 18 years. If you break up with her over money issues, I do not doubt for a minute that she will seek advice from friends and eventually try to get you in legal trouble if you continue living in the Philippines.

Someone wrote a post near the beginning of this string that suggested you get some legal advice. I certainly agree with that advice, as you are going to be facing a lot of trouble if you try to break up with Dianne. It’s probably too late to enter into a binding “palimony� agreement with Dianne, as the baby has already been born. However, perhaps it would be possible to enter into a “prenuptial� agreement with her in the event you might wish to consider getting married to her at some point. However, I am not certain that the Philippine courts will recognize these types of agreements, and that is why you should hire a lawyer. Anyway, a prenuptial agreement could stipulate that you do not have to give money to her family members, and stipulate the size of the monthly allowance you will give to her for all her shopping and other personal requirements. More importantly, it could stipulate that, should you later divorce, that she will not be entitled to any alimony, or any percentage of any pension plan, 401K or other asset that you have. You may even be able to stipulate as to the size of the monthly child support, how it would be paid, and your right to visit your child for a certain period or periods each year.

The alternative is to keep paying out money for Dianne’s clothes and other extravagances, and to support her family. Based on my experience, having many friends married to Thai and Filipina women, they will never stop pressuring you for money. And as time goes on, they will become more jealous and more demanding to the point that you will feel like a prisoner.

Anyways, to summarize, I recommend that you contact a Philippine lawyer for damage control. Good luck, as you will need it.
Island Bum

[Winston]

Momopi, it isn't about the visa. We can't even get to that part yet. It's about her basic requirements for a PASSPORT and how anal the government is about it, despite the fact that Filipinos by nature are clumsy and inefficient, making it illogical to expect strict requirements.

It's a long story. We've already consulted a lot of people and travel agencies. And things got worse when we lost her school ID's and passport documents on the bus, which was the first time I ever lost anything, and it had to come at a bad time.

[Winston]

W: You forget, a lot of guys wanting to date women overseas are seeking a playboy or whoremongering lifestyle, not a stable monogamous relationship. I am still happier abroad, and I can always enjoying dating different hot or cute girls, regardless. That itself is an inspiration to others. Relationships go up and down all the time. No one said it had to be happily ever after. No one can completely control their circumstances or other people. You know that.

Therefore, I am not a bad example to others. I am still doing what other guys dream of. And happy doing it as well. You should have seen the hot girls I've met the past few days. I kept thinking that I was a dream! Owwwwwwww!

In all likelihood, it was probably ONLY a dream given that Dianne controls you, doesn't allow you to visit bars or see other girls, and pretty much leaves you sexually frustrated in the sex Disneyland of the world.

You may be happier abroad, as you claim to be. But to be quite honest and blunt, I don't see how your situation is an inspiration for others, given the ineptitude and misery that largely characterizes it. I find it hard to believe that a man looking for romance and fun abroad would envy or trade places with you after observing your particular situation.

You might want to inform your readers to do some research before going abroad or hooking up with a local girl for some serious romance. Do that which leaves open as many options possible.

W: Dude, you should ask questions and try to act humble, rather than make judgments and calls like that. FYI, it is not a dream. I am doing whatever I want right now, and going out with friends, dating hot girls I know, etc. I am never dateless or sexless here. And that is the bottom line. What is your problem?

The problem is that YOU are focusing on the negative. That's the problem, not that I'm failing or not doing what I want. It's YOU, not me.

My claims are not a dream. I live them. Sorry to burst your bubble. I would gladly post pictures here of what I'm talking about, but I do not want my enemies to use them against me. You can always see my Philippines collage to see what I'm talking about though.

Dianne tries to control me, but it doesn't last for long. Why do you act like you know more about my life than me? That is insane.

I am an inspiration because I GET hot girls here. That's the bottom line. Finding girls with bad qualities once in a while is normal and expected here. It is YOU who is making this situation paint the whole dating abroad thing, NOT ME. YOU! Let's be clear on that at least.

[Winston]

This is my first post here. A buddy told me about the site and I figured I could learn a lot from it.

I have been following this thread with interest. I must say that I am disappointed in Winston in that he has created a real mess for himself. I thought that he would be a teacher for us, something like a monger guru, but now I’m not so sure. I’ve been married to a Thai woman for over 30 years now, and I have lived and worked in Thailand, Philippines, Korea, and Japan, so I have some knowledge of the issues you are facing.

I don’t know how or where you found Dianne, and that isn’t really important. However, I will say if I were single, still in my 30’s, and looking for a relationship, that I think I could have found a nice smart girl with a college degree who could have made a real good lifetime companion. The Internet and Manila newspapers are full of personal ads from decent middle class Filipinas, and a casting of the net would have eventually brought in a keeper. Bargirls are fun to play with, but I think a reasonably educated, mature and sober American male should know better than to get heavily involved with them.

The most significant fact is that you have had a baby with Dianne. This creates serious legal implications, as a court in the Philippines can assess child support just like a court in the USA. And child support lasts roughly 18 years. If you break up with her over money issues, I do not doubt for a minute that she will seek advice from friends and eventually try to get you in legal trouble if you continue living in the Philippines.

Someone wrote a post near the beginning of this string that suggested you get some legal advice. I certainly agree with that advice, as you are going to be facing a lot of trouble if you try to break up with Dianne. It’s probably too late to enter into a binding “palimony� agreement with Dianne, as the baby has already been born. However, perhaps it would be possible to enter into a “prenuptial� agreement with her in the event you might wish to consider getting married to her at some point. However, I am not certain that the Philippine courts will recognize these types of agreements, and that is why you should hire a lawyer. Anyway, a prenuptial agreement could stipulate that you do not have to give money to her family members, and stipulate the size of the monthly allowance you will give to her for all her shopping and other personal requirements. More importantly, it could stipulate that, should you later divorce, that she will not be entitled to any alimony, or any percentage of any pension plan, 401K or other asset that you have. You may even be able to stipulate as to the size of the monthly child support, how it would be paid, and your right to visit your child for a certain period or periods each year.

The alternative is to keep paying out money for Dianne’s clothes and other extravagances, and to support her family. Based on my experience, having many friends married to Thai and Filipina women, they will never stop pressuring you for money. And as time goes on, they will become more jealous and more demanding to the point that you will feel like a prisoner.

Anyways, to summarize, I recommend that you contact a Philippine lawyer for damage control. Good luck, as you will need it.
Island Bum

W: I met her in an internet cafe and bar. I don't think legal protection or involvement is necessary here. None of my Filipino friends say that it is. I think you are thinking of the worst, and you do not know Dianne or Filipino mentality. FYI, she does not like to involve outside sources in family or personal conflicts. In fact, she prefers to deny the problems. And hates even discussing them. Filipinos are not the suing type like Americans are. And Dianne is not a suing type either. She hates involving outside parties in personal matters.

More than half the bar girls here have babies, but they never sue the fathers of their babies, even if they are foreigners. They just give up on them and live separate lives and that's it. It's very common around here. I do not hear about the girls here going to court suing for child support. But just for safety purposes, I'll consult my close Filipino friends here, including this intellectual that I met here who is almost a mirror image of me.

I already wrote several times here that Dianne is willing to accept it if I just provide baby supplies for her to pick up, rather than any kind of monthly child support in the form of cash. You must have missed that. Why would I give them an allowance? That would be stupid. And I don't even trust them, for many reasons I'll elaborate on later.

Besides, they can't afford a lawyer, and can't even afford food on the table right now. So Dianne has to work part time, but she hardly ever goes to work cause of her low energy level and tolerance. And even if they did, I can bring up theft charges against them for things they did in the past, including attempted violence, scams, etc. (which I'll get more into in another post later). So I have a lot on them too. And believe me, it is not true that the courts here will always side with Filipinos. Me and my friends have won cases and disputes here involving law enforcement. If it is a simple matter, they will usually side with the people who are right. And don't forget I have some powerful connections here too. And in addition, I am very persuasive and convincing person who speaks very honestly. I'm the type of person that people BELIEVE when they hear. No one who listens to me doubts the truth of what I'm saying. Truth is everything to me, and my passion for the truth shines through. I come across as an honest educated intelligent persuasive person who argues very well and skillfully. That's why I always do so well in job interviews.

Also, believe it or not, deep down inside, despite her insatiable greed for materialistic things, she does love me deep down at the core. This is demonstrated by the fact that no matter how big the fight between us, she always wants to try to work things out, and even when we don't see each other for a week cause we are on a "break", as soon as she sees me again, there is a smile of joy and happiness the moment she sees me again.

[Winston]

Swincor and Grunt,

By the way, do you not realize the erroneous logic you are using here? You are claiming
that one bad apple ruins a whole bunch. That is not true and is irrational. Why are you
doing that? I am disappointed in such blunders in logic from you.

Dianne is ONE PERSON. There are many girls here. Not all of them are like her. Most of them do not slap their guys frivolously. And most of them are able to watch a movie without falling asleep. And some never ask for money or try to get things from you against your will. Some of my friends have girls like that. They just aren't that attractive usually, as the girls that I like. So why are you judging the whole bunch just on one person?

I myself know many girls here, and not all of them are like Dianne. Some behave better, and some worse, in different ways. The bottom line is that they are easy to meet and treat me better than Western women do. I am never dateless or sexless here.

Honestly, it appears that YOU are the one trying to make this situation into something that ruins my credibility and inspiration to others. Not me.

And you are using false logic in doing so.

That is disappointing. But it is my duty to point that out. You seem to have lost focus.
And I think it's sad that you are trying to assume that this incident brings down the whole
"Happier Abroad" movement and cause. IT DOESN'T! But sadly, you are doing what our enemies and critics want, to tear up our movement and create havoc and doubt from within.

You should think about that.

PS - I can get a girl that's less materialistic than Dianne here, with a much more even temper that doesn't erupt as often, and makes me feel like we're a team rather than competitors, but she'd probably be less attractive. I know a really hot girl right now with the same figure as Dianne who treats me right, never asks for anything, and is not greedy. And she does loves me. But she has multiple guys and has to work in the bar to support her baby too. So you see, I have CHOICES.

[Winston]

I know a really hot girl right now with the same figure as Dianne who treats me right, never asks for anything, and is not greedy. And she does loves me. <b>But she has multiple guys and has to work in the bar to support her baby too.</b> So you see, I have CHOICES.

You don't seem to know just how bad those choices are.

W: Bad? Why are you so damn judgmental? I hate judgmental types.

Everyone is doing the best they can with what they know how. Remember that.

At least this girl I'm referring to is honest and upfront about all the guys she dates. Like me, she is blunt and tells it like it is. I respect that at least. I trust her more than I do other girls here. Plus she is very non-manipulative.

[Winston]

I know a really hot girl right now with the same figure as Dianne who treats me right, never asks for anything, and is not greedy. And she does loves me. <b>But she has multiple guys and has to work in the bar to support her baby too.</b> So you see, I have CHOICES.

You don't seem to know just how bad those choices are.

W: Bad? Why are you so damn judgmental? I hate judgmental types.

Everyone is doing the best they can with what they know how. Remember that.

At least this girl I'm referring to is honest and upfront about all the guys she dates. Like me, she is blunt and tells it like it is. I respect that at least. I trust her more than I do other girls here. Plus she is very non-manipulative.

You say all this as if it really matters. You make her sound like she's much different from Dianne.

I hate to break it to you Winston, but she's just another bar girl -- with "multiple guys" and a kid.

This doesn't exactly boost your original claim about having choices -- choices that one would normally expect to be from OUTSIDE the bar scene in order for the claim to be credible.

W: She is different from other bar girls in that she is honest, upfront, hides no secrets, and is not greedy. And genuinely CARES about me. Anyone can see it.

She is different from Dianne in that Dianne's personality does not fit the bar scene. She only goes there when she has no choice. Dianne does NOT date multiple guys. It's not in her nature.

There are differences. It is you who is trying to paint them all with a broad brush.

[Island Bum]

Regarding your reply to my last post, my first experience with the Philippines was in 1972, and I have been there and Thailand countless times since. I used to know guys who were in the military stationed in the P.I. who got girls pregnant and ended up with a court order to pay child support. If you are living there semi-permanently you have a higher risk of getting nailed by the legal system than, let's say, the 1 week per year sex tourist. All you have to do is start packing your stuff and saying you're going back to America - see what her reaction is then.

I actually think an allownace is a good thing. My Dad put my mother on one and - guess what? All the arguments stopped. Let her decide what is more important - beauty parlor, SM Mall, or her parents. As you know, these people have lived hand-to-mouth practically all their lives. They think money really does grow on trees in the US. Bottom line is they don't know how to manage money. That's why they constantly nag you for more money to pay for their latest whim.

Good luck, Winston. I will be interested in learning how your relationship with Dianne turns out.

Island Bum