Eternal hell is not justified

[69ixine]

christian argument:a crime against a infinite God deserves infinite punishment

Answer:you cannot commit a crime against an infinite god,by definition.He cannot be slighted or harmed by anything,that is a deficiency.

so a finite crime against an infinite god does not deserve infinite punishment.Such a thing therefore is unjust.

Sinning against god alone harms no one but ourselves. And the proper response to that is not to punish them fprever— but through accountability and healing, guide them away from the destructive nature of their sin,even if there is some finite punishment involved.

god could punish sinners with annihilation aswell,which would minimize sin and also stop suffering.However life is good by nature since he can only create good,and if god chooses total death,it would mean he is unjust aswell.

god instead chooses the option that maximizes both sin and suffering(eternal hell), which directly conflicting with His nature as a morally perfect being and omnibenevolent.

So hell seems like a petty childlike attempt of god at saying 'I told you so'.

[69ixine]

@Pixel--Dude and @Lucas88 you all are well versed in philosophy,what are your thoughts ?

[Cornfed]

It is more a case of not making the cut than infinite punishment. But in any case, by what standard is it not justified?

[69ixine]

It is more a case of not making the cut than infinite punishment. But in any case, by what standard is it not justified?

How?in that case annihilation or a neutral eternal place would be justified,not infinitely enduring punishment.

As for your question,see the above post.

[fschmidt]

Eternal hell is justified for modern programmers. Their code is the most revolting depraved crap that humanity has ever produced.

[kangarunner]

Eternal hell is justified for modern programmers. Their code is the most revolting depraved crap that humanity has ever produced.

If you're a master programmer, then interview at Facebook or Google and show those programmers how it's done.

The only thing I'm a master of is degeneracy.

[Cornfed]

It is more a case of not making the cut than infinite punishment. But in any case, by what standard is it not justified?

How?in that case annihilation or a neutral eternal place would be justified,not infinitely enduring punishment.

As for your question,see the above post.

You didn't say by what standard you are judging God's punishment. Also, breach of contract is the only crime in our current system and arguably in general, and you can commit that against God.

[fschmidt]

Eternal hell is justified for modern programmers. Their code is the most revolting depraved crap that humanity has ever produced.

If you're a master programmer, then interview at Facebook or Google and show those programmers how it's done.

The only thing I'm a master of is degeneracy.

So you have mastered the most important thing for Facebook and Google since they are primarily looking for degenerates. Do you really think they would tolerate me with my views? And I have shown modern programmers how it is done on my website http://www.reactionary.software/ and of course they hate me for this.

[69ixine]

It is more a case of not making the cut than infinite punishment. But in any case, by what standard is it not justified?

How?in that case annihilation or a neutral eternal place would be justified,not infinitely enduring punishment.

As for your question,see the above post.

You didn't say by what standard you are judging God's punishment. Also, breach of contract is the only crime in our current system and arguably in general, and you can commit that against God.

If objective notions of goodness do not exist,the idea that God is perfect is senseless,and it's arbitrary,and all his ethical commands become arbitrary,as does truth,nothing would be true and thus truly good,if objective good doesn't exist,objective truth doesn't exist,because there is an aspect of something that cannot be true objectively(goodness),nor truly evil ,just like the kabbalist worldview where truth can change.it would also mean nothing exists,since there is no objective truth,and thus no objectively true existance or reality,and true things like mathematical equations would also be subjective.

everything then becomes arbitrary,there also can be no perfect God or true power,so God can be dethroned.

it is an objective good to minimize harm and suffering,wouldn't you agree?seeing that harm and suffering are privations,of the ultimate good,happiness and well-being/whole-being(seeing that being is synonymous with goodness and truth),therefore no being without privation could cause harm or intentionally increase suffering,even if seemingly necessary(which is impossible,since there are other options always and more morally good ones to minimize sin) when there are other ways to minimize sin like annihilation,or rehabilitation,and this assumes also that you can slight a perfect being,which is impossible.

This is besides the fact a perfect being could undergoe no change whatsoever since potentiality is a privation,and that it is more perfect to be absolutely unique in perfection or divine qualities than to share them,which would mean the trinity is false.This is because simplicity and unity are perfections,and multiplicity,differentiation on the same level of being and complexity are privations,and a multiplicity of divine beings would mean there is a common shared essence that makes them divine plus some type of differing or multiplying factor,even if just a seperate individualized consciousness.

basically a perfect being's essence would be peculiar and specific to it,not shared,because if it were generic it would be differentiated and multiply instantiated,which is to say not full and complete,none of them having divinity in it's complete entirety since all of them share it.

now I am a christian,but only because of fear of hell if I'm wrong,I know all these christian doctrines cannot hold up if a perfect God exists.

[Lucas88]

Sinning against god alone harms no one but ourselves. And the proper response to that is not to punish them fprever— but through accountability and healing, guide them away from the destructive nature of their sin,even if there is some finite punishment involved.

I agree that a supreme being punishing its creatures eternally for temporary mistakes and flaws would be excessively cruel and makes no sense. Such "sins" committed within a contingent world of matter and a finite spacetime would have little importance in light of the vastness of eternity and opposite an infinite creator.

If there is indeed a system of divine justice in the cosmos, then some kind of purgatory with finite punishments and moral lessons would arguably make more sense. We don't eternally punish children for their misbehavior, do we? We simply chastise them and teach them better behavior. The goal is for them to grow. Wouldn't a benevolent creator who views us as his children feel the same way?

god instead chooses the option that maximizes both sin and suffering(eternal hell), which directly conflicting with His nature as a morally perfect being and omnibenevolent.

As you already know, I am not a Christian nor do I regard the Abrahamic god as a benevolent being. Instead I strongly suspect that Yahweh is a malevolent impostor, a kind of dark demonic entity who masquerades as the Supreme Being while enslaving human souls and orchestrating their destruction. Yahweh's cruel and sadistic nature is abundantly evident throughout the Old Testament with all of its ruthless massacres, gruesome sacrifices and instances of infanticide.

In my view, Christianity and other Abrahamic religions are nothing more than doctrines of deception given to humanity for our enslavement and destruction by a false deity who hates us. That's why they are all about sin, eternal damnation and apocalyptism. The Christian doctrine of sin is strikingly similar to that of the Kabbalah - just as the Kabbalah teaches that all Gentile souls are born out of the darkness of the sitra achra and are therefore evil by nature and must be either annihilated or enslaved to the Jews in the Messianic Age, the New Testament teaches that all human beings are of a sinful nature through Original Sin and therefore deserve to spend eternity in hell unless they are redeemed through acceptance of Jewsus' blood sacrifice. I think that these misanthropic doctrines which Yahweh supposedly gave us speak volumes about his thinly veiled contempt for us as a species.

Why do you think that the Abrahamic religions attract so many perverse people who even sadistically relish in the idea of fellow human beings being eternally tormented in hell? It's because the Abrahamic religions themselves are incredibly perverse, even though they like to dress themselves up in an outwardly righteous garb.

@Pixel--Dude and @Lucas88 you all are well versed in philosophy,what are your thoughts ?

I am of the view that souls are born out of the Supreme Being and incarnate into the material world for the purpose of growth and evolution through varied experiences rather than for moral reasons. As such, the emphasis of earthly existence is on action and edification, mistakes and shortcomings are to be expected, and even negative experiences can become lessons. "Sin" and "salvation" are simply artificial notions of infantile "revealed religions" and don't even figure in the broader scheme. Since we ourselves are individuated fragments of the Supreme Being, it would make no sense for the Supreme Being to eternally condemn us. If, hypothetically speaking, a soul does develop some serious flaw, then purgation and rehabilitation would likely follow instead of something akin to eternal hell.

In NDEs some people experience a panoramic life review and talk about it being more about learning than anything else and without any kind of moral judgment - a far cry from the terrifying vision of hellfire and brimstone peddled to us by evangelical preachers and crazed religious fanatics. If NDEs are something to go by and give us a glimpse into spiritual reality beyond the confines of this material matrix, then we shouldn't worry about hell and eternal punishment and such. However, I personally suspect that the beings witnessed in NDEs could be malevolent archons/negative entities (allied with Yahweh) projecting images of universal love and light in an attempt to trick us into remaining within their system of darkness (I believe that they've hijacked our world for their own nefarious ends). For me, I think that it's a better idea to distrust any purported "angels" or "beings of light" and flee from the tunnel and white light. That's what my instinct tells me, having studied the topic of NDEs for a long time.

[Cornfed]

it is an objective good to minimize harm and suffering,wouldn't you agree?seeing that harm and suffering are privations,of the ultimate good,happiness and well-being/whole-being(seeing that being is synonymous with goodness and truth),therefore no being without privation could cause harm or intentionally increase suffering,even if seemingly necessary(which is impossible,since there are other options always and more morally good ones to minimize sin) when there are other ways to minimize sin like annihilation,or rehabilitation,and this assumes also that you can slight a perfect being,which is impossible.

If one accepts the existence of a Creator God, then generally it would be accepted that it is His ball game and following his plan would be by definition good. Where would you get the idea that minimizing harm and suffering was an objective good? Even in our own daily experience, suffering is often necessary and desirable.

[69ixine]

it is an objective good to minimize harm and suffering,wouldn't you agree?seeing that harm and suffering are privations,of the ultimate good,happiness and well-being/whole-being(seeing that being is synonymous with goodness and truth),therefore no being without privation could cause harm or intentionally increase suffering,even if seemingly necessary(which is impossible,since there are other options always and more morally good ones to minimize sin) when there are other ways to minimize sin like annihilation,or rehabilitation,and this assumes also that you can slight a perfect being,which is impossible.

If one accepts the existence of a Creator God, then generally it would be accepted that it is His ball game and following his plan would be by definition good. Where would you get the idea that minimizing harm and suffering was an objective good? Even in our own daily experience, suffering is often necessary and desirable.

Why would it be?If he is evil,which he cannot be,then following him would not be good.

Divine command theory makes a mockery of reality and a truly perfect God.God could command us to be pederasts and it would be good in their view.

you keep asking me questions that I have as a prelimenary already answered,the highest good is happiness,anything that minimizes that and whole-being/well-being(remember pure being and utmost being is total happiness,the highest beauty,the ultimate aim of all things,and is synonymous with perfection and good) is a privation,thus evil.because harm and suffering are contrary to the nature of that ultimate principle and it's conceptually distinct but self-same attributes,of that principle the ultimate good and joy and beauty.

a ugly reality like hell,is a privation,and God cannot proximately cause objective evil/privations.

God is absolute whole being and good and completely free from privation,or evil,so causing harm and suffering is a evil.

we finite beings are by definition beings of privation and evil as is our world and level of spacio-material (another privation,perfection cannot be contained in space)reality so of course we inflict evil to achieve some aim,imperfection and lack,the closer we get to God the more we become like him,though we can never become absolutely like him.

[Cornfed]

you keep asking me questions that I have as a prelimenary already answered,the highest good is happiness,anything that minimizes that and whole-being/well-being is a privation,thus evil.

What is the evidence for this? Also, whose happiness?

[69ixine]

Sinning against god alone harms no one but ourselves. And the proper response to that is not to punish them fprever— but through accountability and healing, guide them away from the destructive nature of their sin,even if there is some finite punishment involved.

I agree that a supreme being punishing its creatures eternally for temporary mistakes and flaws would be excessively cruel and makes no sense. Such "sins" committed within a contingent world of matter and a finite spacetime would have little importance in light of the vastness of eternity and opposite an infinite creator.

If there is indeed a system of divine justice in the cosmos, then some kind of purgatory with finite punishments and moral lessons would arguably make more sense. We don't eternally punish children for their misbehavior, do we? We simply chastise them and teach them better behavior. The goal is for them to grow. Wouldn't a benevolent creator who views us as his children feel the same way?

god instead chooses the option that maximizes both sin and suffering(eternal hell), which directly conflicting with His nature as a morally perfect being and omnibenevolent.

As you already know, I am not a Christian nor do I regard the Abrahamic god as a benevolent being. Instead I strongly suspect that Yahweh is a malevolent impostor, a kind of dark demonic entity who masquerades as the Supreme Being while enslaving human souls and orchestrating their destruction. Yahweh's cruel and sadistic nature is abundantly evident throughout the Old Testament with all of its ruthless massacres, gruesome sacrifices and instances of infanticide.

In my view, Christianity and other Abrahamic religions are nothing more than doctrines of deception given to humanity for our enslavement and destruction by a false deity who hates us. That's why they are all about sin, eternal damnation and apocalyptism. The Christian doctrine of sin is strikingly similar to that of the Kabbalah - just as the Kabbalah teaches that all Gentile souls are born out of the darkness of the sitra achra and are therefore evil by nature and must be either annihilated or enslaved to the Jews in the Messianic Age, the New Testament teaches that all human beings are of a sinful nature through Original Sin and therefore deserve to spend eternity in hell unless they are redeemed through acceptance of Jewsus' blood sacrifice. I think that these misanthropic doctrines which Yahweh supposedly gave us speak volumes about his thinly veiled contempt for us as a species.

Why do you think that the Abrahamic religions attract so many perverse people who even sadistically relish in the idea of fellow human beings being eternally tormented in hell? It's because the Abrahamic religions themselves are incredibly perverse, even though they like to dress themselves up in an outwardly righteous garb.

@Pixel--Dude and @Lucas88 you all are well versed in philosophy,what are your thoughts ?

I am of the view that souls are born out of the Supreme Being and incarnate into the material world for the purpose of growth and evolution through varied experiences rather than for moral reasons. As such, the emphasis of earthly existence is on action and edification, mistakes and shortcomings are to be expected, and even negative experiences can become lessons. "Sin" and "salvation" are simply artificial notions of infantile "revealed religions" and don't even figure in the broader scheme. Since we ourselves are individuated fragments of the Supreme Being, it would make no sense for the Supreme Being to eternally condemn us. If, hypothetically speaking, a soul does develop some serious flaw, then purgation and rehabilitation would likely follow instead of something akin to eternal hell.

In NDEs some people experience a panoramic life review and talk about it being more about learning than anything else and without any kind of moral judgment - a far cry from the terrifying vision of hellfire and brimstone peddled to us by evangelical preachers and crazed religious fanatics. If NDEs are something to go by and give us a glimpse into spiritual reality beyond the confines of this material matrix, then we shouldn't worry about hell and eternal punishment and such. However, I personally suspect that the beings witnessed in NDEs could be malevolent archons/negative entities (allied with Yahweh) projecting images of universal love and light in an attempt to trick us into remaining within their system of darkness (I believe that they've hijacked our world for their own nefarious ends). For me, I think that it's a better idea to distrust any purported "angels" or "beings of light" and flee from the tunnel and white light. That's what my instinct tells me, having studied the topic of NDEs for a long time.

I lean towards neoplatonism or a type of emantion of lights from highest to lowest of being,to our world.However I am a christian due to fear,and personal experiences and other's testimonies.

I know it has no leg to stand on in regards to Yahweh being that highest totality of goodness and beauty,because for one that being would be pure being,and could not change due to it's perfection,and cannot be contained in reality or be effected by it's creatures or anything in any non-cambridge way.

it's creation would also be eternal since every aspect of it is pure being,and it could have no possibility nor emergent desires and actions,nor emergent effects in a proximate manner.

As for NDEs,fundementalist christians will say those are from Satan

[69ixine]

something finite in action cannot in essence reach something perfect or infinite,privation cannot reach completion.

A finite crime cannot reach perfection and totality,it is a privation.