Why Fate & the Will of the Gods Decide the Big Things in Life, Not Free Will or Free Choice

[Winston]

From my discussion with El_Caudillo. What do you all think? In my experience, it seems that fate/destiny/the will of the gods determine the big things in life, not our free will or free choice. Here's why.

[8/9, 2:35 PM] El_Caudillo: You still need to have will to travel and meet people. What if you had never bothered to go to the philippines? Or was that forewritten?

[8/9, 5:07 PM] Winston Wu: In my experience i would have met dianne another way. Depends on how fixed the fate is or the will of the gods. It means there are no coincidences. Lots of wise people conclude that after experiencing everything.

[8/9, 5:29 PM] El_Caudillo: Or you might have met someone else?

[8/9, 5:29 PM] El_Caudillo: If only we could see our fate.

[8/9, 5:30 PM] El_Caudillo: Maybe you are due to meet someone in a week. But if its 5 years itd be nice to know... Less stress

[8/9, 5:34 PM] Winston Wu: Remember a lot of people who meet their soulmates said they knew instantly they were the one. Its like an enlightenment. And sometimes they meet by the most amazing coincidence.

A lot of time travel movies show that if u save someone from dying they die another way. So if u went back and saved JFK he would have been assassinated another way. The universe doesnt care as long as the balance is restored.

If me and dianne had karma to work out then we would meet some way even if i didnt meet her the day i did.

[8/9, 5:36 PM] Winston Wu: You know how sometimes you keep running into the same stranger multiple times? Like the universe is telling u something.

Deepak chopra has stories about how he cant find a girl he met before and had no way, but then the most unlikely coincidence happened to bring her to him again which defied all probability. Etc. Stuff like that tells me its guided. Not random.

[8/9, 5:44 PM] El_Caudillo: So i was destined to be a teacher at a catholic school in nz with mexican partner? Must be thats why nothing worked out for me in Taiwan.

[8/9, 5:48 PM] Winston Wu: Could be. Doesnt mean the destiny is there to make u happy. Just some karma to work out. supposedly u meet the same people in each incarnation.

[8/9, 5:49 PM] Winston Wu: Notice how in taiwan it felt like the vibes were off and awkward right? Hard to put into words. But not everyone feels that way. Its unexplainable.

[8/9, 5:49 PM] Winston Wu: Some guys even average guys, get wife easily in america and job easily too and never have to go abroad except for vacation.

[8/9, 5:50 PM] Winston Wu: Yet they arent any better looking than the guys in my forum. All they did was follow their destiny.

[8/9, 5:52 PM] Winston Wu: If ur with the wrong person all kinds of unusual things happen to try to break u up. You cant even make a hotel reservation together without something going wrong. Its like the universe is really against you. Yet when youre alone nothing like that ever goes wrong. That happened with lisa. I was madly in love with her. So i was pissed that the universe would do that to me. I could feel the jinx and dark cloud around me.

[8/9, 5:56 PM] Winston Wu: If u watch the series by stephen king called 11 22 63 starring james franco, when the protagonist goes back in time to save JFK the universe gives him all kinds of creepy signs that hes not meant to be there and shouldn't be there to meddle. And wacky old men appear out of nowhere to tell him he doesnt belong there. Thats how the universe works when u try to change things and upset the balance or order of things that were meant to be. Stephen king got it right. The last episode in the series shows why he was wrong to try to change history. This series here.

https://www.imdb.com/title/tt2879552/?ref_=nv_sr_srsg_0

[Winston]

Ok here's the crux of my argument. Here's the point I'm trying to make.

Why do New Agers and most Americans, think we are in control of our destiny and fate, and that our destiny depends on the choices we make, as if it were all up to us to decide our future and life? I don't see that at all. I've been talking to @GoingAwol about this and he agrees with me. In my experience, we are only allowed free choice on the trivial things in life that don't matter, such as what to order in a restaurant or what flavor bagel to choose, etc. But not the big things in life. Here's why: In my life, whenever I try to do something that goes against my destiny, it BLOCKS me, with all kinds of coincidences, obstacles, murphy's law type events, jinxes, curses, etc. It's like every little thing goes against me, until I fail. When a dark cloud is over you and wants to ruin your plans, there's nothing you can do about that. It's like the universe or hand of God is exercising ITS WILL, not yours. Simply put, if every little coincidence goes against you, you will always fail and your plans will be ruined. It's totally out of your control.

On the other hand, if I follow my destiny, or God's will, or the will of the universe, then things start going right for me. Coincidences start going in my favor, and all kinds of doors open for me. I've experienced this many times. Have any of you?

Therefore, HOW the heck can my destiny be up to me and my "free will or free choice"? It doesn't make sense. New Agers and American optimists - who believe that we are the "captain of our destiny" - have NEVER explained this. Every time I ask them, they are stumped and try to deny my claims or change the subject or try to blame me, saying that my higher self or subscious mind must be sabotaging me then, therefore, part of my consciousness is making choices that oppose my conscious mind, hence it's my fault either way.

If you watch the movie "The Adjustment Bureau" starring Matt Damon, in a scene where the Adjustment Bureau agents talk to Matt Damon, they tell him that free choice is an illusion, and that they (the bureau) decide the big things in life, according to some grand design by the creator, we just don't know it. They told him that they only allow us to decide trivial things, such as what to order in a restaurant, which don't matter, but not the big things in life. I kind of agree. Based on all my experiences, that does seem to be how it works.

So basically, if you go against your destiny, everything goes against you until you fail. If you follow your destiny, then things start to go your way, doors open, and coincidences help you. This is the consistent pattern I've experienced for many years. So why then do most Americans and New Agers say otherwise?

Can anyone explain? Have any of you wondered about this too? Or experienced what I experienced?

[Spencer]

Wiseton what your destiny what to will be in time of 1 years and 10 years for you for borders for worldwide what wise predictions to sharing now with we your aborder fans

[Winston]

Check this out. Apparently the classic philosophers of Greece and Rome agreed with me that MOST of life is NOT under our control or choice, as modern American New Agers and self improvement teachers claim. Here is an example from the Middle Ages from an author who wrote about how to deal with suffering and how most of life is out of our control. The Romans believed that one's fortune was controlled by a goddess named Fortuna, not by us or our choices.



"The Consolation of Philosophy is the name of one of the greatest and most useful books ever written, the work of the Roman statesman and philosopher Boethius, who wrote it in prison as a way to ward of despair and regret. The lessons of the book remain hugely applicable to our own times - and deserve to be known to all of us in the face uncertain times."

Also check out what the Greek philosopher Epicurus said below about happiness. It makes sense. We should all live in a commune together. Lol



6 great ideas from philosophy for dealing with disappointment and suffering in life. These are some good ideas.

[Winston]

Wiseton what your destiny what to will be in time of 1 years and 10 years for you for borders for worldwide what wise predictions to sharing now with we your aborder fans

I don't know what you mean. We can always have a basic outline plan, but everything depends on the string pullers or script writers that control our destiny and matrix. lol. Just like in movies and TV shows. See my next post.

[Winston]

I think free will is mostly overrated and mostly an illusion, but not 100 percent because we do have souls and consciousness, so we must have some free will. But we do not have control over our fate or destiny it seems. Life seems to be scripted somehow, like a movie or TV show. But my reasons are different than atheists like Sam Harris. They think free will is an illusion because our genes and subconscious mind determine what we do, as if we are machines only and can only do what machines do. He forgets that consciousness is mysterious and cannot be explained and that no scientist or biologist in the world can explain it, thus it's the big X factor that atheists like Sam Harris and those like him do not take into account. With big X factors like consciousness, one cannot say whether free will is an illusion or not, because one cannot say we are merely machines or not either. Atheists don't like to think deeper because they want science and atheists to do the thinking for them and tell them what to believe it seems.

The reason I believe life is scripted is because things seem to happen naturally of their own accord. We don't choose them. I can't speak for everyone, but certainly that's true of my life and when I observe other people too. For example, if 99 or 100 percent of girls reject me, that's not my choice or under my control. It happens whether I am nice or mean, or regardless of what I do or what choices I make. It just happens, not due to any fault or choice of my own. Or if all 30 kids in my 4th grade class bully me, that's not something I chose, it just happened, as if the universe put a label that says "bully me" on it and did NOT give me a choice in the manner. It's not because of my looks. Not everyone who looks asian or nerdy gets bullied in school. And I heard some white kids who look normal and fine, even girls, get bullied by everyone for no reason too. Asking the bullies to stop doesn't accomplish anything and fighting with them doesn't stop the problem either (contrary to what you see in the movies).

Furthermore, you do not choose whether you fit in or not. If you don't fit into your job or culture, that's not your choice. You can't be something you are not. Others will notice it. It's not a choice. If a group realizes you don't fit in, they won't wanna hang out with you anymore, even if you're nice and good. If an employer realizes you don't fit in, they gotta let you go, even if you didn't do anything wrong and you are a good worker, because they don't want just someone who will only do the job, they want someone who is a good fit with their company too, especially if it's a white collar job that demands high performance and excellence. You can't just "pretend" to fit in obviously. It won't work. People will see through that. Especially if you have a strong sense of who you are.

Let me give you some TV shows as an example. In Gilligan's Island, the party never gets off the island until the very last episode. That's not always due to bad choices or free will (though sometimes they do make bad choices). It's because the show's SCRIPT does not allow them to leave the island until the last episode. That's why something always goes wrong when they try to, which is out of their control. Life seems to be like that too.

If you watch the James Bond movies, you notice that James Bond is handsome and charming but he never is able to settle down with one woman. That's not his choice. It's part of the SCRIPT. There was one movie, if you remember, where Bond did get married at the beginning. But his bride got killed during a drive by shooting. So even when he tries to settle down, something goes wrong, and he's back to being single again. That's the SCRIPT, not his choice. He did not choose for his bride to get killed that way of course.

If you remember that sitcom, Seinfeld, you will remember that the main characters never settle down and never have more than short term affairs. Every woman they date (or man in Elaine's case) only lasts one episode or two, and then something goes wrong, and then they are back to being single again. If you remember in the last season, George tried to settle down and get married to his blonde fiancee, but she ended up licking a poisoned enveloped and dying. So he was back to being single again. Back to square one again. Again, these are not the characters' choices, they are SCRIPTED. Even when the character chooses to settle down finally, like George did, something STILL goes wrong and ruins everything.

Well real life is like that too, at least mine is. Things seem to be scripted, not under my control. I have countless experiences that indicate that. So I've never understood why New Agers and Americans always say that we are "the captain of our destiny or fate" and that we determine our destiny/fate. I see NOTHING that backs that up. Do you? What do you guys think? Do your experiences agree or say otherwise? Even if your experiences don't agree, that still begs the question of why my experiences do.

It's like in the movie "The Adjustment Bureau" with Matt Damon. When he meets the agents of the secret Adjustment Bureau, they tell him that they determine the big things in life and world affairs, and that choice/free will are just an illusion. But they admit that they will allow free will in trivial things, such as what you order in a restaurant, because those things don't affect the "grand plan of the architect", but not the big things. Real life does seem to be like that too, as depicted in the movie. Very often, movies are metaphors for reality, and sometimes even literally true too.

If you ask most married men in the American suburbs about how they met their wife, it will usually be some normal natural story, about going to school together or having mutual friends, etc. It will be a story where things happened NATURALLY, and in accord with THE FLOW of things. These married men will not tell you that they have some "secret formula or method" like PUA con artists claim, which single men do not have. No way. All they did was GO WITH THE FLOW. Very simple. Because their relationship was MEANT to happen, it was part of their DESTINY or SCRIPT. That's all. It's not rocket science. And most of these men are nothing special, just average looking (or slightly above or below) nice men who treat their wives like they are "the boss". They don't got anything that the average male does not have. All they did was go with the flow, hence it's all DESTINY and SCRIPTED. See what I mean?

So why don't Americans and New Agers realize this? Why do they insist that everything is a choice and under our control? Makes no sense. Why does what they say contradict real life experience?

@hypermak what's your take on the above? And can you read EVERYTHING I wrote and listen? You seem to ignore the main points of my post and repeat the same points without taking anything I say into account. If you learned to listen, you would see that my points do not fit the simplistic explanations you usually give. If the data doesn't fit, you should change your conclusions, not ignore the data. Don't you agree? That's how the scientific method works. I can think of lots of data/examples that don't fit your simplistic explanations, so you should be constantly UPDATING your beliefs. Right?

[hypermak]

I think free will is mostly overrated and mostly an illusion, but not 100 percent because we do have souls and consciousness, so we must have some free will. But we do not have control over our fate or destiny it seems. Life seems to be scripted somehow, like a movie or TV show. But my reasons are different than atheists like Sam Harris. They think free will is an illusion because our genes and subconscious mind determine what we do, as if we are machines only and can only do what machines do. He forgets that consciousness is mysterious and cannot be explained and that no scientist or biologist in the world can explain it, thus it's the big X factor that atheists like Sam Harris and those like him do not take into account. With big X factors like consciousness, one cannot say whether free will is an illusion or not, because one cannot say we are merely machines or not either. Atheists don't like to think deeper because they want science and atheists to do the thinking for them and tell them what to believe it seems.

The reason I believe life is scripted is because things seem to happen naturally of their own accord. We don't choose them. I can't speak for everyone, but certainly that's true of my life and when I observe other people too. For example, if 99 or 100 percent of girls reject me, that's not my choice or under my control. It happens whether I am nice or mean, or regardless of what I do or what choices I make. It just happens, not due to any fault or choice of my own. Or if all 30 kids in my 4th grade class bully me, that's not something I chose, it just happened, as if the universe put a label that says "bully me" on it and did NOT give me a choice in the manner. It's not because of my looks. Not everyone who looks asian or nerdy gets bullied in school. And I heard some white kids who look normal and fine, even girls, get bullied by everyone for no reason too. Asking the bullies to stop doesn't accomplish anything and fighting with them doesn't stop the problem either (contrary to what you see in the movies).

Furthermore, you do not choose whether you fit in or not. If you don't fit into your job or culture, that's not your choice. You can't be something you are not. Others will notice it. It's not a choice. If a group realizes you don't fit in, they won't wanna hang out with you anymore, even if you're nice and good. If an employer realizes you don't fit in, they gotta let you go, even if you didn't do anything wrong and you are a good worker, because they don't want just someone who will only do the job, they want someone who is a good fit with their company too, especially if it's a white collar job that demands high performance and excellence. You can't just "pretend" to fit in obviously. It won't work. People will see through that. Especially if you have a strong sense of who you are.

Let me give you some TV shows as an example. In Gilligan's Island, the party never gets off the island until the very last episode. That's not always due to bad choices or free will (though sometimes they do make bad choices). It's because the show's SCRIPT does not allow them to leave the island until the last episode. That's why something always goes wrong when they try to, which is out of their control. Life seems to be like that too.

If you watch the James Bond movies, you notice that James Bond is handsome and charming but he never is able to settle down with one woman. That's not his choice. It's part of the SCRIPT. There was one movie, if you remember, where Bond did get married at the beginning. But his bride got killed during a drive by shooting. So even when he tries to settle down, something goes wrong, and he's back to being single again. That's the SCRIPT, not his choice. He did not choose for his bride to get killed that way of course.

If you remember that sitcom, Seinfeld, you will remember that the main characters never settle down and never have more than short term affairs. Every woman they date (or man in Elaine's case) only lasts one episode or two, and then something goes wrong, and then they are back to being single again. If you remember in the last season, George tried to settle down and get married to his blonde fiancee, but she ended up licking a poisoned enveloped and dying. So he was back to being single again. Back to square one again. Again, these are not the characters' choices, they are SCRIPTED. Even when the character chooses to settle down finally, like George did, something STILL goes wrong and ruins everything.

Well real life is like that too, at least mine is. Things seem to be scripted, not under my control. I have countless experiences that indicate that. So I've never understood why New Agers and Americans always say that we are "the captain of our destiny or fate" and that we determine our destiny/fate. I see NOTHING that backs that up. Do you? What do you guys think? Do your experiences agree or say otherwise? Even if your experiences don't agree, that still begs the question of why my experiences do.

It's like in the movie "The Adjustment Bureau" with Matt Damon. When he meets the agents of the secret Adjustment Bureau, they tell him that they determine the big things in life and world affairs, and that choice/free will are just an illusion. But they admit that they will allow free will in trivial things, such as what you order in a restaurant, because those things don't affect the "grand plan of the architect", but not the big things. Real life does seem to be like that too, as depicted in the movie. Very often, movies are metaphors for reality, and sometimes even literally true too.

If you ask most married men in the American suburbs about how they met their wife, it will usually be some normal natural story, about going to school together or having mutual friends, etc. It will be a story where things happened NATURALLY, and in accord with THE FLOW of things. These married men will not tell you that they have some "secret formula or method" like PUA con artists claim, which single men do not have. No way. All they did was GO WITH THE FLOW. Very simple. Because their relationship was MEANT to happen, it was part of their DESTINY or SCRIPT. That's all. It's not rocket science. And most of these men are nothing special, just average looking (or slightly above or below) nice men who treat their wives like they are "the boss". They don't got anything that the average male does not have. All they did was go with the flow, hence it's all DESTINY and SCRIPTED. See what I mean?

So why don't Americans and New Agers realize this? Why do they insist that everything is a choice and under our control? Makes no sense. Why does what they say contradict real life experience?

@hypermak what's your take on the above? And can you read EVERYTHING I wrote and listen? You seem to ignore the main points of my post and repeat the same points without taking anything I say into account. If you learned to listen, you would see that my points do not fit the simplistic explanations you usually give. If the data doesn't fit, you should change your conclusions, not ignore the data. Don't you agree? That's how the scientific method works. I can think of lots of data/examples that don't fit your simplistic explanations, so you should be constantly UPDATING your beliefs. Right?

@Winston, once again my answers might not be those you expect and I might not agree with you. That doesn't mean I cannot read English or I don't read your posts well before replying. It's disappointing and preposterous that you think that, when I am one of the few posters who are replying to you punctually, profusely and with the best written English they can muster. At least you should appreciate the time and effort I put into writing back to you.

One thing I noticed is that you keep mentioning movies, TV series and other works of fiction to substantiate your theories. A movie often represents reality in a way that is functional to the story, or the underlying message. Characters make choices that are scripted for the audience's entertainment. If Seinfeld's writers wanted the main character to be stuck in this "forever single" loop it's probably because they wanted to keep the comedy value of these "catch and release" affairs going on and on. I don't think there is any deeper meaning about the existence of free will or a single man's persistent misery.

And again, I am sorry that you have been rejected by a few women or bullied at school or felt like your job or social circle isn't a good fit. Most men get rejected by women until they find their match. I personally respect those who try and get rejected than those who don't even try. So you know where I stand on this.

A lot of boys are bullied at school but not all of them let those experiences affect their adult life. Some of them learn martial arts and give their bullies a good payback, some of them just ignore them or move to a social circle where they won't meet those nasty kids anymore.

About "fitting in" into a job or professional environment, I think that's a bit more complicated. Few, very few, are lucky enough to find themselves in an ideal work situation, without a demanding and abusive boss, without jealous and non-collaborative colleagues, with an unattractive salary, or without much of a career ladder. The situation is made worse by the simple fact that one cannot simply change job every 2 weeks until they find the perfect fit. Most of the times one simply adjusts to the situation, makes the best out of it, until something happens which improves things, or their perception of things, and they can carry on with the job for another year or three, before looking for something better.

None of these life events suggests me that good or bad things happen out of a Truman Show-like script. Sure, one may believe in a series of apparently unexplicable coincidences and call them "fate", or "destiny". Yet, that does not mean that everything that happens to us is driven by a cosmic plan on which we have no control. That is making excuses.

There's this famous prayer, composed by an American theologian, which I am sure you know. It starts with...

God, grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change,
courage to change the things I can,
and wisdom to know the difference

Very concisely, it says that

1) there are things that are indeed outside our control - we look the way we look and a hot blonde who onlt fancies blonde blue-eyed football quarterback type of guys is probably gonna reject our approaches, no matter how hard we try - it cannot be changed and the best we can do is accept that very fact

2) there are things, and I personally believe they're the majority, that are fully under our control and we can change. Sure, it might take time, discipline, effort, courage, pain and sweat, but change they can. Believing that we cannot change them is delusional, it might make us feel safer in the short term but they often come back to bite us later in life.

On the same example, it's obvious that most cute girls would rather date a fit, confident type of man, than an out of shape, depressing-looking guy. It doesn't cost that much to be a on a good diet and exercise regularly, and continue to do so well into one's adult life. Yet, it's amazing how many men grow entitled and curse the hell out of women because "they won't accept them as they are".

3) most important of all, is the wisdom to understand what can (and should) be changed and what cannot and should be simply accepted.

It takes a very good amount of intellectual honesty to tell these two groups apart. @Winston, no offense, but you keep sounding like you have an amazing edifice of very sophisticated theories to justify that lack of wisdom, or that intellectual laziness, that makes you think everything in your life belongs to group 1, the things you cannot change.

[Spencer]

I think free will is mostly overrated and mostly an illusion, but not 100 percent because we do have souls and consciousness, so we must have some free will. But we do not have control over our fate or destiny it seems. Life seems to be scripted somehow, like a movie or TV show. But my reasons are different than atheists like Sam Harris. They think free will is an illusion because our genes and subconscious mind determine what we do, as if we are machines only and can only do what machines do. He forgets that consciousness is mysterious and cannot be explained and that no scientist or biologist in the world can explain it, thus it's the big X factor that atheists like Sam Harris and those like him do not take into account. With big X factors like consciousness, one cannot say whether free will is an illusion or not, because one cannot say we are merely machines or not either. Atheists don't like to think deeper because they want science and atheists to do the thinking for them and tell them what to believe it seems.

The reason I believe life is scripted is because things seem to happen naturally of their own accord. We don't choose them. I can't speak for everyone, but certainly that's true of my life and when I observe other people too. For example, if 99 or 100 percent of girls reject me, that's not my choice or under my control. It happens whether I am nice or mean, or regardless of what I do or what choices I make. It just happens, not due to any fault or choice of my own. Or if all 30 kids in my 4th grade class bully me, that's not something I chose, it just happened, as if the universe put a label that says "bully me" on it and did NOT give me a choice in the manner. It's not because of my looks. Not everyone who looks asian or nerdy gets bullied in school. And I heard some white kids who look normal and fine, even girls, get bullied by everyone for no reason too. Asking the bullies to stop doesn't accomplish anything and fighting with them doesn't stop the problem either (contrary to what you see in the movies).

Furthermore, you do not choose whether you fit in or not. If you don't fit into your job or culture, that's not your choice. You can't be something you are not. Others will notice it. It's not a choice. If a group realizes you don't fit in, they won't wanna hang out with you anymore, even if you're nice and good. If an employer realizes you don't fit in, they gotta let you go, even if you didn't do anything wrong and you are a good worker, because they don't want just someone who will only do the job, they want someone who is a good fit with their company too, especially if it's a white collar job that demands high performance and excellence. You can't just "pretend" to fit in obviously. It won't work. People will see through that. Especially if you have a strong sense of who you are.

Let me give you some TV shows as an example. In Gilligan's Island, the party never gets off the island until the very last episode. That's not always due to bad choices or free will (though sometimes they do make bad choices). It's because the show's SCRIPT does not allow them to leave the island until the last episode. That's why something always goes wrong when they try to, which is out of their control. Life seems to be like that too.

If you watch the James Bond movies, you notice that James Bond is handsome and charming but he never is able to settle down with one woman. That's not his choice. It's part of the SCRIPT. There was one movie, if you remember, where Bond did get married at the beginning. But his bride got killed during a drive by shooting. So even when he tries to settle down, something goes wrong, and he's back to being single again. That's the SCRIPT, not his choice. He did not choose for his bride to get killed that way of course.

If you remember that sitcom, Seinfeld, you will remember that the main characters never settle down and never have more than short term affairs. Every woman they date (or man in Elaine's case) only lasts one episode or two, and then something goes wrong, and then they are back to being single again. If you remember in the last season, George tried to settle down and get married to his blonde fiancee, but she ended up licking a poisoned enveloped and dying. So he was back to being single again. Back to square one again. Again, these are not the characters' choices, they are SCRIPTED. Even when the character chooses to settle down finally, like George did, something STILL goes wrong and ruins everything.

Well real life is like that too, at least mine is. Things seem to be scripted, not under my control. I have countless experiences that indicate that. So I've never understood why New Agers and Americans always say that we are "the captain of our destiny or fate" and that we determine our destiny/fate. I see NOTHING that backs that up. Do you? What do you guys think? Do your experiences agree or say otherwise? Even if your experiences don't agree, that still begs the question of why my experiences do.

It's like in the movie "The Adjustment Bureau" with Matt Damon. When he meets the agents of the secret Adjustment Bureau, they tell him that they determine the big things in life and world affairs, and that choice/free will are just an illusion. But they admit that they will allow free will in trivial things, such as what you order in a restaurant, because those things don't affect the "grand plan of the architect", but not the big things. Real life does seem to be like that too, as depicted in the movie. Very often, movies are metaphors for reality, and sometimes even literally true too.

If you ask most married men in the American suburbs about how they met their wife, it will usually be some normal natural story, about going to school together or having mutual friends, etc. It will be a story where things happened NATURALLY, and in accord with THE FLOW of things. These married men will not tell you that they have some "secret formula or method" like PUA con artists claim, which single men do not have. No way. All they did was GO WITH THE FLOW. Very simple. Because their relationship was MEANT to happen, it was part of their DESTINY or SCRIPT. That's all. It's not rocket science. And most of these men are nothing special, just average looking (or slightly above or below) nice men who treat their wives like they are "the boss". They don't got anything that the average male does not have. All they did was go with the flow, hence it's all DESTINY and SCRIPTED. See what I mean?

So why don't Americans and New Agers realize this? Why do they insist that everything is a choice and under our control? Makes no sense. Why does what they say contradict real life experience?

@hypermak what's your take on the above? And can you read EVERYTHING I wrote and listen? You seem to ignore the main points of my post and repeat the same points without taking anything I say into account. If you learned to listen, you would see that my points do not fit the simplistic explanations you usually give. If the data doesn't fit, you should change your conclusions, not ignore the data. Don't you agree? That's how the scientific method works. I can think of lots of data/examples that don't fit your simplistic explanations, so you should be constantly UPDATING your beliefs. Right?

@Winston, once again my answers might not be those you expect and I might not agree with you. That doesn't mean I cannot read English or I don't read your posts well before replying. It's disappointing and preposterous that you think that, when I am one of the few posters who are replying to you punctually, profusely and with the best written English they can muster. At least you should appreciate the time and effort I put into writing back to you.

One thing I noticed is that you keep mentioning movies, TV series and other works of fiction to substantiate your theories. A movie often represents reality in a way that is functional to the story, or the underlying message. Characters make choices that are scripted for the audience's entertainment. If Seinfeld's writers wanted the main character to be stuck in this "forever single" loop it's probably because they wanted to keep the comedy value of these "catch and release" affairs going on and on. I don't think there is any deeper meaning about the existence of free will or a single man's persistent misery.

And again, I am sorry that you have been rejected by a few women or bullied at school or felt like your job or social circle isn't a good fit. Most men get rejected by women until they find their match. I personally respect those who try and get rejected than those who don't even try. So you know where I stand on this.

A lot of boys are bullied at school but not all of them let those experiences affect their adult life. Some of them learn martial arts and give their bullies a good payback, some of them just ignore them or move to a social circle where they won't meet those nasty kids anymore.

About "fitting in" into a job or professional environment, I think that's a bit more complicated. Few, very few, are lucky enough to find themselves in an ideal work situation, without a demanding and abusive boss, without jealous and non-collaborative colleagues, with an unattractive salary, or without much of a career ladder. The situation is made worse by the simple fact that one cannot simply change job every 2 weeks until they find the perfect fit. Most of the times one simply adjusts to the situation, makes the best out of it, until something happens which improves things, or their perception of things, and they can carry on with the job for another year or three, before looking for something better.

None of these life events suggests me that good or bad things happen out of a Truman Show-like script. Sure, one may believe in a series of apparently unexplicable coincidences and call them "fate", or "destiny". Yet, that does not mean that everything that happens to us is driven by a cosmic plan on which we have no control. That is making excuses.

There's this famous prayer, composed by an American theologian, which I am sure you know. It starts with...

God, grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change,
courage to change the things I can,
and wisdom to know the difference

Very concisely, it says that

1) there are things that are indeed outside our control - we look the way we look and a hot blonde who onlt fancies blonde blue-eyed football quarterback type of guys is probably gonna reject our approaches, no matter how hard we try - it cannot be changed and the best we can do is accept that very fact

2) there are things, and I personally believe they're the majority, that are fully under our control and we can change. Sure, it might take time, discipline, effort, courage, pain and sweat, but change they can. Believing that we cannot change them is delusional, it might make us feel safer in the short term but they often come back to bite us later in life.

On the same example, it's obvious that most cute girls would rather date a fit, confident type of man, than an out of shape, depressing-looking guy. It doesn't cost that much to be a on a good diet and exercise regularly, and continue to do so well into one's adult life. Yet, it's amazing how many men grow entitled and curse the hell out of women because "they won't accept them as they are".

3) most important of all, is the wisdom to understand what can (and should) be changed and what cannot and should be simply accepted.

It takes a very good amount of intellectual honesty to tell these two groups apart. @Winston, no offense, but you keep sounding like you have an amazing edifice of very sophisticated theories to justify that lack of wisdom, or that intellectual laziness, that makes you think everything in your life belongs to group 1, the things you cannot change.

Duende you cross line again better stopit for you not cat not have 9 life wiseton is filosophizing masterman so how you dare to brandish knive fronting his face so warning you now calm down saracastics act humbleness to wiseton or i reignite my tailor truthing quest for full exposure you radical racialist fake chefman stop stop stop doubt wiseton he bossman here you dumwit so shushup for good on bickering for if you need argue go back contarian who more your legue for wiseton wipe sewer with your overage carcassing then banman you again

[Winston]

Of course I appreciate your responses hypermak. But I don't see what you claim. I don't see how my choices make any difference. In my life, what is meant to be, will be. My choices DO NOT change that. Like I said earlier, the universe will BLOCK me if I go against my destiny. Only if I follow my destiny, does the universe allow me to move forward. IT decides, NOT ME! So how is that free will or free choice? I don't get it.

Suppose you were a mouse hypermak and I put you in a maze. If you went the wrong way, I put a wall to block you. If you go the right way in the maze that I want, I allow you to move forward. Is that free will? You see what I mean? That's a simple analogy or metaphor to illustrate my point. You seem to keep dodging it or misunderstanding it, so I have to use very simple analogies to help you get my point.

That's it in a nutshell. That's what I see and experience. I do not see that it's all due to my choices. Sorry. Is that really your experience? If so, why isn't it mine? I would love for my life to go by what I choose, but it doesn't. So I don't see what you claim. Do you understand?

I already gave many examples. Did you watch the movie "The Adjustment Bureau"? It claims most things in life are scripted according to a grand plan we don't see. What if that's true? It certainly seems true. Bottom line: I see no evidence in my life that supports what you say. Do you understand?

[Winston]

Free will is a man made concept. There is not even one single verse in the Bible that says anything about free will. Even if free will exists, it’s very minimal and not as big a factor as American culture claims. Even Stoicism from ancient Greece and Rome says that most things in life are not controllable. Most decisions you make are either from your subconscious mind or higher self too. So I see very little evidence for free will.

[Gali]

Hi Winston, so basically you think you are a robot

[Winston]

Hi Winston, so basically you think you are a robot

No im a freethinker and very soulful. But you can't prove that I'm in control and that higher forces are not controlling us at a higher level. Or that randomness exists. Or that i choose my destiny.

[Winston]

Question I posted on YouTube for Matt McKinley about his "inner tuning fork" advice:

Hey Matt, I got a question about the "inner tuning fork" that you frequently talk about. The thing is, even Christian fanatics claim that their inner tuning fork led them to Jesus and the Bible. Mormons claim the same. When you ask them why they believe their religion is true, they can only say "because it is true, and if you listen to your inner tuning fork, it will reveal the truth of our religion to you." Etc. I'm sure the former Christians here, like me, know what I mean. Even Richard Dawkins will tell you that his inner tuning fork led him to die hard atheism. So isn't this inner tuning fork thing subjective Matt?

The only thing I can conclude is that, as you've alluded to, we are all playing some sort of script or role here (including you too perhaps) and if we are assigned to be a Christian or New Ager or Buddhist or Atheist or Truther, then those things will resonate with us and our "inner tuning fork" will guide us there. That's why we are not all the same, there is some sort of organizing principle that arranges things in this world, and even in our bodies too. For example, what organizes the 40 trillion cells in your body to do what they do? Obviously not your conscious mind, there has to be some hidden organizing principle that does it, or some AI program that's hidden in another dimension? If you watch the flow of traffic for example you will see that it comes in a steady flow. If it were truly random, then once in a while all the cars would come onto the freeway at the same time, but that never happens, except maybe during rush hour, but it never happens randomly, because there is some hidden order that organizes everything so that it doesn't happen. Just like the trillions of cells in our body are organized.

What do you all think? Do you see a hidden order in everything too? What this means is that free will is an illusion and only those who are highly conscious may have it. Or free will is a very small factor. Like Matt Damon was told in "The Adjustment Bureau" the system only allows free will in trivial things, like the flavor ice cream you pick, etc. But not anything important. So it could be that free will is a "necessary illusion" but that our thoughts are not our own, and if some of us become aware of that, we go crazy. Maybe schizophrenics are trying to break away from their programmed thoughts, and that's why they have an inner split within them? Who knows. There's big thinking for you! Sorry for the long rant. I've been thinking about this for a long time now and these are my conclusions. What do you all think? Have any of you observed similarly?