Get Vaccinated Or Be Barred From Commercial Airlines

[Contrarian Expatriate]

This thread is not about vaccination in general, only about Covid vaccination. The Old Testament encourages critical thinking which would result in refusing this vaccine. However I strongly encourage you and the other morons here to take the vaccine in order to improve the human gene pool.

This thread is about possibly required vaccinations if you prepare for a trip abroad. Some countries require a certain vaccination, like yellow fever in some parts of Africa. Airlines do not allow you to board their airplanes to that destinations, as they will be fined and under obligation to transport that person back to their costs if a passenger arrives without that required vaccination.

This might be again the case with Covid-19 in near future. If you show up without proof of vaccination and are unable to accept testing and 15 days quarantine on arrival at your cost, the airline will not allow you to board their airplanes to that country.

Quantas and Cebu Pacific are already considering to handle passengers only if they prove covid-19 vaccination, and other airlines will follow, at least here in Asia.

Nobody is forcing you to accept covid-19 vaccination, up to you. It will anyway take many months more until millions of people willing to accept the covid-19 vaccine will be able to receive it. However expect restrictions for overseas trips.

I don't know why this is so difficult to understand.

The morons who are anti-vaxxers are letting nature run its deadly course. I prefer to let nature deal with them rather than try to convince them.

I am surprised about Mr.Man's comment, I found it very reasonable. Nothing mentioned about Christianity, Bible, Old Testament etc. etc.

Anyway, as I said, nobody will force you into covid-19 vaccination if you don't want it. However as a result, expect not to be allowed to board international flights to certain destinations. That's all....

MrMan is one of the most clueless idiots on this forum. It is bad enough that he is a brainwashed, spreader of biblical nonsense. But he wrote that the Covid vaccine relies on aborted fetuses. That is a lie because the Covid vaccine does not use fetal cells as some other vaccines do. But I would not expect a "bible on the brain" nincompoop to care about the truth.

[Yohan]

MrMan is one of the most clueless idiots on this forum. It is bad enough that he is a brainwashed, spreader of biblical nonsense. But he wrote that the Covid vaccine relies on aborted fetuses. That is a lie because the Covid vaccine does not use fetal cells as some other vaccines do. But I would not expect a "bible on the brain" nincompoop to care about the truth.

I do not have such a deep insider knowledge about this matter, it seems however that fetal cells from an aborted fetus in 1972 and another one from 1985 are used for vaccine research, including covid-19.

https://www.sciencemag.org/news/2020/06 ... etal-cells

This is an interesting summery about this topic, some vaccines are obviously found during research using
(full report see link above)

Cells derived from elective abortions have been used since the 1960s to manufacture vaccines, including current vaccines against rubella, chickenpox, hepatitis A, and shingles. They have also been used to make approved drugs against diseases including hemophilia, rheumatoid arthritis, and cystic fibrosis. Now, research groups around the world are working to develop more than 130 candidate vaccines against COVID-19, according to the World Health Organization; 10 had entered human trials as of 2 June.

At least five of the candidate COVID-19 vaccines use one of two human fetal cell lines: HEK-293, a kidney cell line widely used in research and industry that comes from a fetus aborted in about 1972; and PER.C6, a proprietary cell line owned by Janssen, a subsidiary of Johnson & Johnson, developed from retinal cells from an 18-week-old fetus aborted in 1985. Both cell lines were developed in the lab of molecular biologist Alex van der Eb at Leiden University.
.....

The Vatican’s Pontifical Academy for Life declared in 2005 and reaffirmed in 2017 that in the absence of alternatives, Catholics could, in good conscience, receive vaccines made using historical human fetal cell lines.
*Clarification, 8 June, 12:10 p.m.: This story has been updated to clarify that the Vatican approves of Catholics receiving vaccines manufactured using human fetal cells only in the absence of alternatives.

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“HEK-293 [cells] are essential for making protein subunit vaccines,” says Andrea Gambotto, a vaccine scientist at the University of Pittsburgh School of Medicine and the vaccine’s lead developer. Their human origin is important, he says: “Cultured [nonhuman] animal cells can produce the same proteins, but they would be decorated with different sugar molecules, which—in the case of vaccines—runs the risk of failing to evoke a robust and specific immune response.”

The statement from the Vatican is typically something in a grey zone - 'You can do that but only if there is no other way to go....'
I am not sure about all these various other vaccines under research - do they use human fetus cells or not? I read one company is using chimpanzees, others try with cows....

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This is the newest article I found, from the very conservative Irish Church, from yesterday....

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/social- ... -1.4432771

‘Morally permissible’ for Catholics to accept Covid-19 vaccine which uses aborted foetal cells
Catholic church welcomes vaccination programme for ‘common good’

about 24 hours ago

It is “morally permissible” for Catholics to accept a Covid-19 vaccination which involves the use of cell lines derived from aborted foetuses, the Irish Catholic Church has said.

The Catholic Church traditionally teaches that it is unethical to use stem cells derived from aborted fetuses in medical research.

However, in a statement on Wednesday, the Irish Catholic Bishops’ Conference said Catholics could accept vaccines using these stem-cells if a more “ethically acceptable” alternative is not available.

“Questions have arisen that human foetal cell-lines, which have their origins in abortions carried out in the past, are used in the development and production of some of the vaccines for Covid-19,” the statement said.

“If a more ethically acceptable alternative is not readily available to them, it is morally permissible for Catholics to accept a vaccine which involves the use of foetal cell-lines, especially if the potential risk to life or health is significant, as in the case of a pandemic”

The statement said that refusal to accept a vaccine could contribute to “significant loss of life in the community”, particularly among those who are most vulnerable.

“This reality must inform any judgement of conscience,” it added.

The church reaffirmed its “consistent teaching ... that abortion is always gravely immoral”.

“The church has always made a distinction, however, between formal (deliberate) involvement in an immoral act and material involvement, which may be incidental and remote,” it said.

“The decision of those who decide to accept vaccines which have had some link with foetal cell-lines in the past does not imply any consent on their part to abortion.”

The church also noted that many of the vaccines currently in devlopment “do not depend for their design or production on foetal cell lines”.

“Catholics should continue to advocate for the availability of ethically-developed vaccines. In that way they bear witness that biomedical research should always be conducted in a manner which is consistent with respect for life and for human dignity,” it added.

The church encouraged Catholics to support a programme of vaccination, not only for their own good, but for the common good of humanity.

Cells derived from elective abortions have been used since the 1960s to manufacture vaccines, including current vaccines against rubella, chickenpox, hepatitis A, and shingles.

Posts circulated on social media last month that the AstraZeneca/Oxford Covid-19 vaccine contains aborted foetus cells, prompting concerns that members of the public would object to the vaccine on moral grounds.

AstraZeneca has said its vaccine uses a cell strain taken from a female foetus aborted in the 1970s. However, the company said the cells are used to propagate the virus for the vaccine but these cells do not make it into the final jab.

So what? Church statements are mutually contradictory. Better NO, but also YES ....so 50/50

As I said, nobody is forced into accepting this covid-19 vaccination. Isn't that the most important point out of it?

And let me add, if you are against vaccination because you are a Christian, please complain directly to the Vatican or to your Church (for example to this conservative Irish Church) - but do not complain to me or calling me names or asking for my extinction, solely because I am an atheist and do not agree with this anti-vaxxer-movement.

[Contrarian Expatriate]

Cells derived from elective abortions have been used since the 1960s to manufacture vaccines, including current vaccines against rubella, chickenpox, hepatitis A, and shingles. They have also been used to make approved drugs against diseases including hemophilia, rheumatoid arthritis, and cystic fibrosis. Now, research groups around the world are working to develop more than 130 candidate vaccines against COVID-19, according to the World Health Organization; 10 had entered human trials as of 2 June.

https://factcheckni.org/articles/covid- ... d-fetuses/

[Yohan]

This is correct, as far as I can see, Pfizer and Moderna do not use fetal cell lines for producing their covid-19 vaccine.

Also in the covid-19 vaccine of Astra Zeneca there are NO fetal cells, however a fetal cell line originally from an aborted fetus is used since more than 40 years to assist with research and production of some kind of vaccine, including covid-19.

In future there will be many more vaccines regarding covid-19, and likely also Astra Zeneca might change to another similar vaccine without using fetal cell lines.

There is also the option to collect fetal cells from amniocentesis of the pregnant woman, without even touching the human fetus inside the womb.

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In future for sure you will have a choice what kind of vaccine you prefer against covid-19 or if you prefer that, refuse it.

I wonder however in 2022, two years later, if you refuse covid-19 vaccine in USA, if insurance companies will be willing to pay your medical bills when you catch it and need emergency treatment in a hospital.

It is also said in Japan, that the flu-vaccination is very important - it is available and for free - as it will prevent to catch flu and covid-19 at the same time and if this happens to you this is really a life-threatening situation - at least get the flu shot....

[MrMan]

There are people who think 'they' are intentionally (or unintentionally) putting something harmful in these vaccines we are taking, especially the COVD-19 vaccine. The current vaccine, from what I have read, was developed using the kidney cells of an aborted baby. I am not in a high risk age group, and if I got the disease there would be a 99%+ chance of survival based on the stats (from what I have heard and read. The info could have changed. It has a high death rate compared to a regular flu, which keeps a fraction of a percentage of its victims.

Thanks for your very reasonable comment.
I can only talk about how we see the situation here in Japan.
Vaccine against covid-19 is still not available. Maybe in 3 months...

There are now at least 13 different companies into research of Covid-19 vaccine. They are using different materials for their research of course, before they are testing it with humans.

I think in a few months we will know more, research is still going on and done hastily under time pressure, there are many questions and no conclusive answers yet.

The death rate in Japan/South Korea is now as follows (in average around 1.7 to 1.8%)
patient - age
80+ 11.6%
70+ 6.3%
60+ 1.5%
50+ 0.4%
40+ 0.1%
This means 90% of all deaths are people 60+ of age.

The 40+ age group has a much higher death rate than the flu, double if I recall correctly. That was the general rate, not broken down by age.

Some people test positive and are basically asymptomatic. I know two people who had it, one who was asymptomatic and another who had some minor congestion and felt like sleeping a lot. But the asymptomatic man's aunt was older and died from it. That's just anecdotal information. But there may be a lot of people who have had it who were asymptomatic who have immunity.

I hope we can get tested for antibodies to show immunity if we do not get a vaccine, and that those who had it do not need a vaccine. I do not think it worth it to expose myself to the virus to keep from having a vaccine, but I do not want to get one. Hopefully, if airlines accept this policy they will eventually change it when the virus is no longer an issue if it effects their sales.

20 % of infected people have no or weak symptoms and are not aware that they are infected and but they are infecting others near to them.

If airlines on international routes will accept an antibody certificate/ or certificate free of corona-19 etc. is questionable, but for sure such a certificate is not cheap, in Japan designated private clinics will charge you yen 46.500,- (approx. USD 445,-) for such testing and for international documents.

Further on arrival the country of destination might send you straight into quarantine and additional testing for 15 days unable to leave the hotel room....at your cost - consider that additional travel expenses of thousands of dollars for a family of 4.

It's much easier to handle this issue with a vaccine of course and much much cheaper. This is merely an economic question.

I'd rather not have vaccines for low-risk diseases. I do not take flu vaccines. On the one had, there is immunity if you happen upon last year's flu bug, but weighed against having someone inject who knows what directly into your blood stream, plus the hassle of getting a shot...

The hassle of getting a covid-19 shot is surely less than to receive a certificate of antibody/or free of corona-19 in case of overseas travel.

The last count I have here is

United States 15,820,042 infected so far - and 296,698 deaths.
You think it is a low risk disease? Yes - or No....It's all relative, if you consider USA has more than 330 million people.

Anyway, nobody will force you into vaccination if you do not want it.

It will take months to produce and provide covid-19 vaccine for all people who are voluntarily lining up for a shot and for an additional shot a few weeks later, there will be waiting time even for people who show up by themselves.
[/quote][/quote]

Eventually, I expect the COVID-19 thing to end. That's how pandemics work. At some point, it won't be an issue that inspires fear. People do not live in terror of the Spanish flu today. The problem is if there are policies, and especially laws, requiring shots to fly, or worse, work and earn a living.

[Yohan]

@MrMan

Something is mixed up with the formatting of your comment. My text is shown as your replies, and your replies are missing, please check your comment above - Thank you.

[Yohan]

https://www.insider.com/covid-19-vaccin ... nt-2020-12

Some thoughts about travel in future about vaccination....

Full text see link above...

What the COVID-19 vaccine could mean for the future of travel
.....
Soon after news of the vaccines broke, Qantas said it would likely require passengers to have proof of a COVID-19 vaccination before allowing them to fly internationally.

However, to date, it's the only airline that has made such an announcement.

Delta's CEO, Ed Bastian, said on TODAY that he could see such a requirement being instituted on international flights, though he said it may come from international authorities rather than from airlines.

Jill Chung, a spokesperson for Korean Air, similarly said that airlines may require vaccinations in the future, per AP, but added that this would likely be due to governments making the call in order to open borders and lift quarantine requirements.

[Yohan]

Eventually, I expect the COVID-19 thing to end. That's how pandemics work. At some point, it won't be an issue that inspires fear. People do not live in terror of the Spanish flu today. The problem is if there are policies, and especially laws, requiring shots to fly, or worse, work and earn a living.

This is true - but unfortunately only to some extent, as during the Spanish flu there was not such a large tourist travel industry - international AND domestic - by air traffic existing. Nowadays passengers arrive in a far away location within a few hours.

We have seen cruise ships to be also a dangerous place, however the disease will break out on board before arrival. With airplanes however this is not the case and passengers will disperse after disembarkation to many places, will also infect people when changing airplaces in transit rooms etc.

Nowadays any new unknown virus is spreading much faster compared to the past, except if there are unpleasant and costly regulations in effect like quarantine up to 2 weeks and testing during that time of waiting isolated in a hotel room, unable to get out.

Here in Japan/South Korea medical doctors expect the corona-19 virus to move around everywhere worldwide in case without widely available vaccination (especially for people using airplanes for long distance flights) for more than two years - up to 2022 or 2023...until it will disappear.

So what to do is the question... Now medical doctors in Japan/SouthKorea are busy to vaccinate people against flu and pneumonia, because if you get infected with covid-19 AND pneumonia or flu at the same time, it will become considerably more difficult to recover for the patient.

We do not have yet any vaccine in Japan/South Korea against covid-19 - and this will not change for the next 3 months it seems. Not before March or April 2021.

[mattyman]

RE Spanish flu;
-that was overall more dangerous than covid as far as IFR goes
-It had a different age distribution; Spanish flu was most dangerous to younger adults whilst covid on the other hand isn't very dangerous for healthy working but more dangerous to the elderly

I think any virus should be allowed to spread among the least susceptible segments of the population with mitigation measures for the more susceptible, so they can develop anti-bobies and T-cell immunity, slow the rate of spread and let the pandemic peter out. This won't be profitable for big pharma of course.

Governments should abandon the 'suppression' policy and move towards a 'mitigation' policy.

Compulsory vaccination can f**k-off.

[mattyman]

Great news; most people in the UK don't want the Pfizer vaccine (because it's rushed, there's been nasty side effects from untested vaccines). People in the UK are aware (Bill Gates stamping his feet in hissy fit "drat, drat and DOUBLE DRAT! My plans to reduce fertility.. people are wiser than I thought.. Smithers! Fetch me plan B, bwa ha ha!").

[Yohan]

I fully support terrorism against any airline that requires vaccination. Anyone who uses such an airline deserves to die.

Are you crazy to post such an illegal comment and admitting to be supportive to terrorism?

If you don't want to be in an airplane with vaccinated passengers and crew then stay on ground, don't use that airline.

[Yohan]

Great news; most people in the UK don't want the Pfizer vaccine (because it's rushed, there's been nasty side effects from untested vaccines). People in the UK are aware (Bill Gates stamping his feet in hissy fit "drat, drat and DOUBLE DRAT! My plans to reduce fertility.. people are wiser than I thought.. Smithers! Fetch me plan B, bwa ha ha!").

From where did you get that idea that MOST people in UK refuse covid-19 vaccination? Any link to any article about that?

[Cornfed]

I fully support terrorism against any airline that requires vaccination. Anyone who uses such an airline deserves to die.

Are you crazy to post such an illegal comment and admitting to be supportive to terrorism?

If you don't want to be in an airplane with vaccinated passengers and crew then stay on ground, don't use that airline.

This presupposes that you have a choice. The bad guys will try to make it so you have to give up more and more of your normal life in order to not take their poison.

In terms of the comment being illegal, is that the case? When I was young it was accepted that it was only illegal to incite a specific criminal offence, but now, who knows.

[mattyman]

RE Yohan. Lockdown Skeptics.org & natters wit friends.
https://lockdownsceptics.org/

According to the UK government, over 50% are unwilling to take a Pfizer vaccine. Many newpapers say this.

Boycott airlines that require vaccination.

Ignore over-reactions.

If you fschmit advocate terrorism, you're not doing yourself a service. THINK before you speak. You're trying to spin 'anyone who disagress with vaccines onflights is a terrorist'. f***ing THINK before you speak!

[Yohan]

According to the UK government, over 50% are unwilling to take a Pfizer vaccine. Many newpapers say this.

There will be soon various other vaccines available, which are not made by Pfizer and produced using different vaccine materials.

Most articles I found about UK are dividing its population into 4 groups about equally by numbers.

25 % are totally against it (regardless if made by Pfizer or not)
25 % are unsure, but more likely against it (but don't care about those who want it)
25 % are unsure, but are more likely for it however prefer to wait a while, but are not against people who are against it...
25 % want the vaccination quickly.

There is a large grey zone - anyway, at this moment clinics are busy with people who want it...25 % of the population....
It will take several weeks to vaccine them in UK, maybe 15 to 20 million people, and not to talk about another second shot - this will take again some months more. Not sure if there is even enough vaccine available.

Simply said, if you don't want it, nobody will force you to be vaccinated. So what is your problem about vaccination?

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About airlines, covid-19 vaccination might affect mainly international routes to certain countries in future as it did in the past (especially yellow fever).

Airlines have to follow immigration rules of the country of destination. If a certain country requires obligatory vaccination against a certain disease, the airline cannot allow a person showing up without proof of vaccination to board its airplane. Same is true with other requirements of course like valid passport, visa, financial requirements, return ticket etc.

Boycott airlines that require vaccination

Airlines have no other choice, what else can they do?

Airlines will be fined and have to fly back such passengers at their own costs if they fail to observe those rules.
We cannot blame the airlines if they insist on vaccination in such a situation.