Does God Exist? Is there any proof or evidence?

[Winston]

I am not an atheist but have problems with the trouble religions have caused. Today look how the bible is used as a complete political tool and the whole God the father thing is a bit much for me.

Of course, because man made religions have political agendas and anything man made can be corrupted and used for control and self-interest. What do you expect? That doesn't mean though that there's no spirit word and no God and no soul and that we are just an accident here created by random chemicals colliding together by chance only, which is ridiculous. That's my point.

So Atheism, Christianity, and New Age all have problems and flaws. None are perfect or have the monopoly on truth. None of them fit all the data. But a lot of closed minded people, including some here, think that one of those three paradigms is absolute truth and flawless and explains everything. That's ridiculous of course, but I can't explain why guys like CE, Yohan, Neo and MrMan actually believe that their belief is flawless and the answer to everything and the ultimate truth and above questioning. I can't speak for them, only myself.

For some reason, almost everyone is only skeptical of the beliefs they don't agree with, but they are NEVER skeptical of their own beliefs. That applies to the guys here too. Only a true skeptic like me can apply skepticism to my own beliefs. No one else can, not even in a freethinking forum like this.

[Moretorque]

Thanks, I will think about that...

[MrMan]

Btw, answered prayers do exist and do happen. There are countless stories of miracles and answered prayers.

None of that is proof. It is confirmation bias because there are many more countless stories of UNANSWERED prayers. People like you just select the stories that confirm your argument and ignore those that undercut your argument. So there still is no proof that prayers are answered. People just falsely attribute it to prayer while they ignore the fact that all their lives their other prayers went ignored. But of course some Christian wacko would respond to that by saying, "God works in mysterious ways," which is a total cop out position.

Answered prayer is evidence. Unanswered prayers is not evidence. Even from the Bible, we should expect that God does not grant all prayers' for example prayers not prayed in faith, prayers asked wrongly out of 'lusts' (illegitimate desires) may not be granted and it is clear promises and answers to prayer may take a long time to be fulfilled.

Let's suppose some children in a family heard their parents talk about a rich uncle Charlie who they'd never met. So all the kids write a letter to rich uncle Charlie asking for some financial help for something. One wrote asking for money to pay for a new bicycle. Another wrote asking for a cotton candy machine. Another wrote for money to buy cigarettes, and another wrote asking for money to pay for his mother's operation. The kids writing asking for cash for a bike, cotton candy machine, and cigarettes get no response at all. The kids who asked for money for his mom's operation gets a letter and cash. The kids who get no response decide to become a-Charlie-ists, arguing that Charlie does not exist.

[My analogy is limited. Prayer is not just about asking for cash, of course.]

[Contrarian Expatriate]

Btw, answered prayers do exist and do happen. There are countless stories of miracles and answered prayers.

None of that is proof. It is confirmation bias because there are many more countless stories of UNANSWERED prayers. People like you just select the stories that confirm your argument and ignore those that undercut your argument. So there still is no proof that prayers are answered. People just falsely attribute it to prayer while they ignore the fact that all their lives their other prayers went ignored. But of course some Christian wacko would respond to that by saying, "God works in mysterious ways," which is a total cop out position.

Answered prayer is evidence. Unanswered prayers is not evidence. Even from the Bible, we should expect that God does not grant all prayers' for example prayers not prayed in faith, prayers asked wrongly out of 'lusts' (illegitimate desires) may not be granted and it is clear promises and answers to prayer may take a long time to be fulfilled.

Let's suppose some children in a family heard their parents talk about a rich uncle Charlie who they'd never met. So all the kids write a letter to rich uncle Charlie asking for some financial help for something. One wrote asking for money to pay for a new bicycle. Another wrote asking for a cotton candy machine. Another wrote for money to buy cigarettes, and another wrote asking for money to pay for his mother's operation. The kids writing asking for cash for a bike, cotton candy machine, and cigarettes get no response at all. The kids who asked for money for his mom's operation gets a letter and cash. The kids who get no response decide to become a-Charlie-ists, arguing that Charlie does not exist.

[My analogy is limited. Prayer is not just about asking for cash, of course.]

Nonsense! And how about the mother who prays that her child remains healthy only for that child to get cancer and die an agonizing death? Is that evidence to you as well?

Face it. People like you who are brainwashed by religion can’t even think logically so they pick and choose whatever examples they like and proclaim it as evidence.

The only evidence you presented to us is that you are an unmitigated imbecile.

[MrMan]

Btw, answered prayers do exist and do happen. There are countless stories of miracles and answered prayers.

None of that is proof. It is confirmation bias because there are many more countless stories of UNANSWERED prayers. People like you just select the stories that confirm your argument and ignore those that undercut your argument. So there still is no proof that prayers are answered. People just falsely attribute it to prayer while they ignore the fact that all their lives their other prayers went ignored. But of course some Christian wacko would respond to that by saying, "God works in mysterious ways," which is a total cop out position.

Answered prayer is evidence. Unanswered prayers is not evidence. Even from the Bible, we should expect that God does not grant all prayers' for example prayers not prayed in faith, prayers asked wrongly out of 'lusts' (illegitimate desires) may not be granted and it is clear promises and answers to prayer may take a long time to be fulfilled.

Let's suppose some children in a family heard their parents talk about a rich uncle Charlie who they'd never met. So all the kids write a letter to rich uncle Charlie asking for some financial help for something. One wrote asking for money to pay for a new bicycle. Another wrote asking for a cotton candy machine. Another wrote for money to buy cigarettes, and another wrote asking for money to pay for his mother's operation. The kids writing asking for cash for a bike, cotton candy machine, and cigarettes get no response at all. The kids who asked for money for his mom's operation gets a letter and cash. The kids who get no response decide to become a-Charlie-ists, arguing that Charlie does not exist.

[My analogy is limited. Prayer is not just about asking for cash, of course.]

Nonsense! And how about the mother who prays that her child remains healthy only for that child to get cancer and die an agonizing death? Is that evidence to you as well?

Face it. People like you who are brainwashed by religion can’t even think logically so they pick and choose whatever examples they like and proclaim it as evidence.

The only evidence you presented to us is that you are an unmitigated imbecile.

Name calling is a sign of not having a decent argument, kind of like cheerleaders who chant the 'you're ugly' chant when their team is losing.

You'd be hard pressed to find someone whose religion teaches that no one ever gets sick and dies.

I've had a number of specific answers to prayer. I needed cash once, and prayed for $400. About an hour later, if that, someone who did not know I'd prayed that (I hadn't told anyone) gave me $400. There are some more specific than that.

[flowerthief00]

@flowerthief00

Do you have any answers to the questions above?

Keep in mind that if everything were a coincidence we would not exist or be here, because randomness can NEVER create life or complexity. Never. Not in a gazillion years. So we cannot be the result of random molecules colliding together without purpose. That's an atheist philosophy with zero proof and has hijacked the science community too of course. But that doesn't make it true if there's no evidence to support it.

Keep that in mind and you will see that chance and coincidence cannot explain everything or anything at all. Look at the big picture and learn to let go of your rigid beliefs if the data doesn't fit or if it doesn't make sense or doesn't feel right. Atheists need to learn that their beliefs do not have to be fixed. Look around you, do you honestly feel that everything is here by accident and random chance only???

Where have I ever said that everything is here by accident and random chance only? Get outta here with that straw man. Sure, randomness by itself doesn't create great complexity. What it creates is variation. Which a selecting mechanism can then act upon to reinforce patterns resulting in increasing complexity.

Such a mechanism(s) could be natural and unintelligent, or it could be intelligent, or there could even be both (if I'm not mistaken the Catholic church take this latter position).

But if we're going to talk about what selecting mechanism is supported by science rather than religious faith or speculation, there is really only one--Natural Selection. Surely you've heard of it?

I don't know what any of this has to do with atheism though. Atheists and Catholic popes alike accept that complexity can arise in the way I outlined.

[flowerthief00]

Btw, you NEVER answered my questions above that were posted to you:

1. How does RANDOMNESS creates complex structures and designs such as computers, computer programs, human DNA, human anatomy, etc? And how randomness creates the origin of life and human consciousness? I asked atheists these questions many times in this thread. They all DODGED them. Why? Can you answer them? Why do you keep dodging them?

2. Another question for you: Can you name even ONE argument why God does NOT EXIST? Just one? Christopher Hitchens and Richard Dawkins cannot even find one in any of their books. Open up their books and you will see this. All they do is ridicule religion with ad hominem attacks. They have ZERO arguments for the nonexistence of God. Can you think of even one valid argument? Just one?

How do you explain all that??? How??? You gotta have some explanation. If atheism can't explain it then you gotta look for a NEW PARADIGM don't you think?!

This wasn't directed at me but it needs to be said....

As for 1. although I didn't dodge the question myself it would not have been wrong to have ignored it. The explanation (which is common knowledge) doesn't resolve the atheism question.

As for 2. there is such a thing as burden of proof. As many different concepts of god have been devised by man as the number of question marks (punctuation) contained in the sum total of posts you make on HA in a single day. In other words, a very big number.

So which concept of god are we supposed to believe in? Why did you reject the gods that you don't believe in?

Can you name even ONE argument why Odin does NOT EXIST? Just one?

[Contrarian Expatriate]

You'd be hard pressed to find someone whose religion teaches that no one ever gets sick and dies.

But you did not answer the question. Why do you not view the woman's prayer's going unanswered as evidence that god might NOT exist. Again, you pick and choose the few examples of where there was a favorable outcome for the person praying and hold it up as "evidence." Yet, you ignore the more numerous unanswered prayers then come up with some ridiculously lame excuse like, "You'd be hard pressed to find someone whose religion teaches that no one ever gets sick and dies." Selective "evidence" if I ever saw it!

I've had a number of specific answers to prayer. I needed cash once, and prayed for $400. About an hour later, if that, someone who did not know I'd prayed that (I hadn't told anyone) gave me $400. There are some more specific than that.

And that coincidence is your proof that god exists? Please tell me you are trolling because you cannot be that stupid. And the fact that you think god felt providing $400 to you was more important than answering prayers of parents to save their children from agonizing cancer death is narcissistically insane.

This is what I mean when I say Christianity is evil cloaked under the guise of virtue!

[Contrarian Expatriate]

Where have I ever said that everything is here by accident and random chance only? Get outta here with that straw man.

Christians and @Winston in particular, often do that when they cannot win an argument. They will try to use something you did not say nor believe against you.

Non-Christian: I don't believe Christianity is a religious faith for rational and intelligent people.
Christian: Why do you support all Christian churches being destroyed in such a hateful manner?

Non-Christian: Catholic priests are too often pediphiles.
Christian: Catholicism is not Christianity!

Typical nonsense that one has to deal with when engaging irrational Christian nutjobs.

[halnovemila]

Typical nonsense that one has to deal with when engaging irrational Christian nutjobs.

I promise you, based on my long past experience debating in various forums, that you have to deal with such kind of nonsense no matter if you are engaging a Christian or a non Christian and no matter what's the subject of the debate.
But, I think, it's more like a female trait that one to make long way inferences on someone opinions or assumptions based on previous statements.
For example, it's happened to me quite often that when criticizing a theory that assumes that "the Jews" are the main responsible for some "evil" event (let's say the 9/11 tragedy) I then got replied with "so you are saying that the Israeli government is always innocent?".

That said, I want to share my take on the "answered prayers" argument because CE objection not only deserve an answer that is "rational" in terms of "morality" (it needs to not be contradictory within a given morality framework, which is were often miserably fails the mainstream Christian doctrine) but it's also part of the larger main problem of all those who believe in "Loving Almighty God", it's the apparently never ending, never explained, so called "Problem of Evil", which also CS Lewis, novelist of great renown, author of the "Chronicles of Narnia", friend of R. Tolkien, ex atheist, then turned to Christianity with great faith, who had his wife died of cancer four years after their marriage, decided to deal with in his book "Problem of pain".
The problem of pain is a big huge issue that has never been fully addressed by any Christian doctrine and that has caused many bright minds, like well known Prof Bart Ehrman, once a Christian fundamentalist, to lose their faith and turn, not to atheism, but to agnosticism at least.
In other words it's easier to stick to the idea of an all loving and all mighty God only till when life doesn't turn unbearably painful (usually after the suffered loss of a loved one).

Let's make a basic distinction... prayers that requires miracles and prayers that don't.
I'm my belief, which is uniquely and independently developed and don't
rely on any Christian doctrines but may conflict with many of them, God cannot intervene directly in this world because his intervention will cause interference to our free will and therefore will also take away the full responsibility and accountability of someone's actions and choices.
But that "principle" of love and law (mother and father) doesn't turn God in a plain "spectator" of the human lives, (S)He still can "act" to help those who seeks for help through prayers.
God can't intervene directly but can communicate to all those who have a "good heart", no matter if believers or not, even atheists can receive God's words.
God's words appear to us as thoughts, we can't really know such thoughts are from God, and we take such thoughts as they are ours.
An atheist may very well have a thought appearing to his her mind and following that thought without knowing that though is God's words for him her.
But really, for God to be able to send thoughts to our mind we need to be a "heart" tuned on the right "communication frequency", so it's not for everyone and not in every single moment of someone's life.
So, assuming God can send thoughts to billions of people at any time, if someone has a prayer that can be answered by "suggesting" someone else to do something "good", and the suggestions is picked up by the receiver who free willingly follow the suggestion, here we have the the prayer is answered by God acted only as a proxy, as the "action" is from those persons who chose to follow the thoughts that God had been able to send to them.
In that case the "principle of the preservation of free will and own accountability" is not violated, God doesn't intervene directly, God's intervention is indirect, God's intervention is totally based on the "good heart" and free will of those who can receive God's thoughts to them... but ultimately are the men and women that has received God's thoughts who actually make the prayer to be "answered".
That's something similar to what happened to me recently... I've been "playing" God for a moment.
A poor girl, in a hopeless situation, prayed me to let her free car transportation for her travel from province to town.
Me couldn't really fulfil her prayer directly because I don't have a car and also couldn't send her the money for the travel fare, so, what I did? I sent some words to a friend which I have a open always on communication channel (I have his phone number) and asked him if he can do a free service, not as a personal favor to me, but has a act of charity, so totally up to him what to do.
He replied "OK, I'll do it".
So the girl had her prayer fulfilled, she thanked me of course, she also thanked my friend, I thanked my friend too and I'm pretty sure that God is happy of all of us
It's possible that God actually played a role on that little story I've told above.

So that's for the prayers that not require miracles, for the prayers that requires miracles I have another explanation but it's also quite long to be written even if I try to be as concise as possible and it's tiring to write long texts using the phone...
I'll do the effort to write that other explanation only if I'll see enough interest from readers here on what I have to say.

Good things to everyone.

Alex from Venice

[Yohan]

Christians and @Winston in particular, often do that when they cannot win an argument. They will try to use something you did not say nor believe against you.

Non-Christian: I don't believe Christianity is a religious faith for rational and intelligent people.
Christian: Why do you support all Christian churches being destroyed in such a hateful manner?

Non-Christian: Catholic priests are too often pediphiles.
Christian: Catholicism is not Christianity!

Typical nonsense that one has to deal with when engaging irrational Christian nutjobs.

Same experience so far.

For example:

Yohan: Without afterlife why should a human care about if a God exists or not?

Winston: How do you know Yohan? Have you searched for proof? Or do you just refuse to look for it? Isn't an atheist looking for proof of God like a thief looking for a policeman? lol

What kind of answer is this? And it is funny, but true that the Jehovah' Witnesses - who are known as Christian fanatics with their persistent Biblestudies - agree with me...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jehovah%27s_Witnesses

Life after death
Jehovah's Witnesses believe death is a state of non-existence with no consciousness. There is no Hell of fiery torment; Hades and Sheol are understood to refer to the condition of death, termed the common grave. Jehovah's Witnesses consider the soul to be a life or a living body that can die.

These are empty talks from religious bigots and the only way to know that something like a God and your soul exist is to die... after your death you will see what happens - but so far nobody came back telling me his or her story...

Oh yes, I almost forgot -
Catholicism is not Christianity!
Jehovah's Witnesses is not Christianity!
etc. etc.

The question remains, what is 'Christianity'? Any Christianity-orientated group is accusing all other Christianity-orientated groups that they are not Christians....

[Contrarian Expatriate]

Oh yes, I almost forgot -
Catholicism is not Christianity!
Jehovah's Witnesses is not Christianity!
etc. etc.

- Baptists are not Christian!
- Orthodox are not Christian!
- The King James Bible is not the Bible!
- The New Catholic Bible is not the Bible!
- If you need to see proof that god exists, then you have chosen to hate god and you are likely a criminal and a sexual predator who supports Islamic terrorism and Antifa and will have a surprise waiting for you when you die!

These brainwashed, Christian nutjobs are the original, manipulative "gaslighters." And it is very telling that the most toxic members here are the most religious (no names needed, you know them all).

[Winston]

Btw, answered prayers do exist and do happen. There are countless stories of miracles and answered prayers.

None of that is proof. It is confirmation bias because there are many more countless stories of UNANSWERED prayers. People like you just select the stories that confirm your argument and ignore those that undercut your argument. So there still is no proof that prayers are answered. People just falsely attribute it to prayer while they ignore the fact that all their lives their other prayers went ignored. But of course some Christian wacko would respond to that by saying, "God works in mysterious ways," which is a total cop out position.

Answered prayer is evidence. Unanswered prayers is not evidence. Even from the Bible, we should expect that God does not grant all prayers' for example prayers not prayed in faith, prayers asked wrongly out of 'lusts' (illegitimate desires) may not be granted and it is clear promises and answers to prayer may take a long time to be fulfilled.

Let's suppose some children in a family heard their parents talk about a rich uncle Charlie who they'd never met. So all the kids write a letter to rich uncle Charlie asking for some financial help for something. One wrote asking for money to pay for a new bicycle. Another wrote asking for a cotton candy machine. Another wrote for money to buy cigarettes, and another wrote asking for money to pay for his mother's operation. The kids writing asking for cash for a bike, cotton candy machine, and cigarettes get no response at all. The kids who asked for money for his mom's operation gets a letter and cash. The kids who get no response decide to become a-Charlie-ists, arguing that Charlie does not exist.

[My analogy is limited. Prayer is not just about asking for cash, of course.]

Nonsense! And how about the mother who prays that her child remains healthy only for that child to get cancer and die an agonizing death? Is that evidence to you as well?

Face it. People like you who are brainwashed by religion can’t even think logically so they pick and choose whatever examples they like and proclaim it as evidence.

The only evidence you presented to us is that you are an unmitigated imbecile.

Name calling is a sign of not having a decent argument, kind of like cheerleaders who chant the 'you're ugly' chant when their team is losing.

You'd be hard pressed to find someone whose religion teaches that no one ever gets sick and dies.

I've had a number of specific answers to prayer. I needed cash once, and prayed for $400. About an hour later, if that, someone who did not know I'd prayed that (I hadn't told anyone) gave me $400. There are some more specific than that.

Exactly. Because CE has no argument or defense to answered prayers. He can only say that they are due to coincidence only. He doesn't know that of course, but that's all he can say, even if false. He has nothing else to say. So he uses ridicule and ad hominem attacks, cause he is losing and has no real arguments, and he knows it.

Some answered prayers are too specific, like your example above. I've seen such examples too. There are even more amazing ones in Christian literature. And I've experienced them too. So I know they exist. Do they prove God or the power of the mind and the power of intention, as New Agers might claim? I don't know. But they definitely are NOT coincidence as atheists and CE claims.

[Winston]

@flowerthief00

Do you have any answers to the questions above?

Keep in mind that if everything were a coincidence we would not exist or be here, because randomness can NEVER create life or complexity. Never. Not in a gazillion years. So we cannot be the result of random molecules colliding together without purpose. That's an atheist philosophy with zero proof and has hijacked the science community too of course. But that doesn't make it true if there's no evidence to support it.

Keep that in mind and you will see that chance and coincidence cannot explain everything or anything at all. Look at the big picture and learn to let go of your rigid beliefs if the data doesn't fit or if it doesn't make sense or doesn't feel right. Atheists need to learn that their beliefs do not have to be fixed. Look around you, do you honestly feel that everything is here by accident and random chance only???

Where have I ever said that everything is here by accident and random chance only? Get outta here with that straw man. Sure, randomness by itself doesn't create great complexity. What it creates is variation. Which a selecting mechanism can then act upon to reinforce patterns resulting in increasing complexity.

Such a mechanism(s) could be natural and unintelligent, or it could be intelligent, or there could even be both (if I'm not mistaken the Catholic church take this latter position).

But if we're going to talk about what selecting mechanism is supported by science rather than religious faith or speculation, there is really only one--Natural Selection. Surely you've heard of it?

I don't know what any of this has to do with atheism though. Atheists and Catholic popes alike accept that complexity can arise in the way I outlined.

The problem with natural selection and random mutations is that it does NOT add information to the genome. It can only duplicate DNA or remove DNA, but CANNOT create NEW DNA. That's what atheists keep missing over and over again, because if they acknowledge it, their theory is toast. I've told you guys this many times already. Can you stop pretending to be deaf please?

Richard Dawkins was asked to give an example of a random mutation that adds information to the genome. He was speechless and dumbfounded. It was caught on camera. Are you able to name one example?

Of course the Catholic Church has to claim that. They went very liberal in the 1960's. So they had to adopt Evolution and now claim to believe in Theistic Evolution. However, Dr. Stephen Meyer, one of the top experts in Intelligent Design, has thoroughly debunked Theistic Evolution. See below.

[Winston]

Btw, you NEVER answered my questions above that were posted to you:

1. How does RANDOMNESS creates complex structures and designs such as computers, computer programs, human DNA, human anatomy, etc? And how randomness creates the origin of life and human consciousness? I asked atheists these questions many times in this thread. They all DODGED them. Why? Can you answer them? Why do you keep dodging them?

2. Another question for you: Can you name even ONE argument why God does NOT EXIST? Just one? Christopher Hitchens and Richard Dawkins cannot even find one in any of their books. Open up their books and you will see this. All they do is ridicule religion with ad hominem attacks. They have ZERO arguments for the nonexistence of God. Can you think of even one valid argument? Just one?

How do you explain all that??? How??? You gotta have some explanation. If atheism can't explain it then you gotta look for a NEW PARADIGM don't you think?!

This wasn't directed at me but it needs to be said....

As for 1. although I didn't dodge the question myself it would not have been wrong to have ignored it. The explanation (which is common knowledge) doesn't resolve the atheism question.

As for 2. there is such a thing as burden of proof. As many different concepts of god have been devised by man as the number of question marks (punctuation) contained in the sum total of posts you make on HA in a single day. In other words, a very big number.

So which concept of god are we supposed to believe in? Why did you reject the gods that you don't believe in?

Can you name even ONE argument why Odin does NOT EXIST? Just one?

I never said Odin does not exist. That's irrelevant. All I said was that an INTELLIGENT agent or causation must have created the universe and biological organisms. Randomness cannot do that. Can randomnness create a computer or computer program? Why does Bill Gates hire programmers to create Windows if random keystrokes can do it? lol

All the videos I posted above prove this 100 percent. You've not rebutted that. Just because your beliefs have been debunked doesn't mean what I said isn't true.