My Trip to Yalta PART C (Wrap-Up)

[EvilBaga]

Hi, this is a repost of my report of going to Yalta Ukraine. Its brutally honest in my opinion. (Read Part A and B first!)
Its in response to this post, and a few details about this post are the last (at the time of this writing) comments on this forum link: http://www.happierabroad.com/phpBB2/vie ... php?t=4661

(Repost Below)

[EvilBaga]

Lets finish off what happened to me chronologically
At night Aug 29 I tell the driver (Ibrahim) to be ready at 6:00AM to go to Simferopol. Incidently if you stay at the Krimski and are planning to use a taxi, use him. Hes cheaper by a mile. From the hotel to the Bus station cost me 20 Gyvinas, a normal taxi charged me 35 (after trying to charge me 50).

In the morning Im off. Kind of solemn really. A mostly or completely wasted trip. We arrive at 7:40. There are two terminals. But just follow the other passengers with luggage to find the place. As its a small airport, the layout is slightly different - No big boards constantly changing. Just one that displays the flight number. Talked to a British guy who had lived in Cyprus for the last 20 years - he loves the place. He married a lady from Sevastopol about a year ago (she was there) and taught her English himself over 7-8 months. They had come to visit her family.

Seems a lot of smart cookies are leaving the west, with its feminazi nanny state and overregulation (read some of Fred Reed's website). Im not prepared to do that yet - but I remain open to the idea. Maybe.

I make my way on to the flight at 9:30 (left a lot of time just to be careful). We have to walk to the plane. Strange.
As we line up to board, a baggage handler takes my bag from me. Too big apparently. When we board - I see why. The overhead compartments for storing luggage are simply angled open bins. This is some Soviet backward aircraft. The ride itself was REALLY bumpy. For 10 minutes or so, it was like being ona bridge - going up and down, having my internal organs jostled constantly.

We get off at Kiev. Another overcrowded room waiting for luggage. Im resigned to missing my flight again really. Have to wait about 1 hour before the luggage carousel starts up. Ill say it again, nothing works in the Ukraine. Nothing.

When I finally get my luggage its 20 minutes to take off time for my flight ot Charles De Gaulle, Paris France. I make a quick stop to change my UAH to Dollars. Generally the customs dont care even though its illegal to take any UAH out of the country - but Im not taking any chances.

[EvilBaga]

I scoot over to Terminal B. At the Air France Counter, they tell me boarding is finished for Air France. The counter Lady takes a Walkie Talkie to see if she can stop the plane. It works. She quickly closes her counter and takes me and some young lady from Boston who was in the same situation as me to have our baggage loaded. I chat with the lady- saying ' if you dont mind Im going ot stick to you like glue till we are on the plane cause you speak Russian' We make more small talk - as soon as her passport is stamped the clerk tells her to go up the yellow elevator to boarding. Shes gone in a flash. I would be satisfied with a look, or a 'Sorry, I got to go', but shes just a bitch. My passport takes longer because its bangladeshi - but in 2 minutes I get the same directions from the clerk.

I get up the elevator and there are 2 huge lines with no signs explaining what they are. You have to appreciate that I am highly adrenalized - so not thinking too clearly. And not used to Airplane Travel in general. I look for an official for a minute. None. I ask some random fellows, they say something in Russian and shrug.

Wait - I see a uniformed lady! at the entrance to the other room. Saying "Izvenchiya" I make my way to the front of the line - show her my ticket and she looks at me and walks further away. It wasnt someone in Uniform - just looked like one. Embaressed in front of 70 people. But the adrenaline keeps that in check. I ask one more random couple. More gibberish and shrugging.

After waiting for another 30 seconds to a minute - I got to the front of the other line saying 'Izvenichiya' (other line because its less embaressing). I actually go through the doorway - and theres a clerk on the other side stamping tickets. I cut in and say in English " My Flight leave now". She doesnt look up, but stamps whatever she has to. Then I load my baggage for security check and go through.

Now Im in a big terminal again. Where to go? What to do? I dont know. Remember the plane is waiting just for me. I see the cyprus guy and quickly ask him what to do. He says go there to Passport Control. I ask what would happen if I cut in? He says try and explain it. My chief rational fear was I would be stopped by some pompous Military or Security guy and create more problems if I cut in a line thats already 70-100 people long. Anyway I cut in with the mandatory "Izvenichiya" get to the front and get through.

[EvilBaga]

I get my passport stamped and get through.
Its the boarding area. I am drenched in sweat by now. I squint at my ticket to find the terminal. And begin to run towards it. I see the Air France Ticketing Lady looking for me. She hails me over and takes me to the gate. I say "Thank you so much for all your help!" She smiles and I jog through to the plane (western style direct to plane loading).

I get on, and make my way to my back seat. Time is 12:55. When we are supposed to take off.

In my seat, a air hostess kneels down to eye-level and asks me (still puffing) if I would like some water. I reply "Yes, please!"

We take off 20 minutes later with priority landing clearance for Paris France so the flight wont be late.

And that ends my adventure. There were a few hiccups in Paris France and Montreal - but nothing major and its irrelevant to this post.

[EvilBaga]

There are some details and background I should add to flesh out what happened, to clarify some of the comments made in the PART B Thread.

I had been talking to Nastya for about 8 months (well 7 and a quarter given the RLM hoax). It wasnt an all day long conversation type thing. More like a letter or two a week, and a chat every now and then if averaged out.

I had originally planned to visit in March, but I ended up having a dispute with my money in the bank (long story and irrelevant to this discussion), so I had to cancel that. Thing was I didnt know *IF* I was going to get the money back

- so I was reticent about telling Nastya (or the other girl in Sevastopol for that matter) that I was coming.

Now for the last few years (I am 28 right now) I have been dicking around in High-Stress Low paying jobs. Up to the age of 25 I didnt really have many options (yet another irrelevant long story). But between 25 and 28 my life was

coming together - working and stuff. Reason I choose the relatively low pay jobs over college is to start my own business in the field of agriculture. I gave up on the idea in the end. Im still convinced it would work - but there are too

many uncertainties for too small a relative reward.

So, being blessed with a high mathematical aptitude - even at the late age of 28, I enrolled in College - Computer Science (Engineering would take 3 months longer as Id need more prerequisites, and the salaries are about the same).

Whats the point of all this? Well basically what Im trying to say is I was Time constrained in many ways. I would get the money in August from the bank - but wasnt going to make any plans before that. When I did get the money - I

tried to contact Nastya.

So on one hand, I got college starting in September (Sept 2nd was my first day in fact), on the other hand I have a limited budget for the next 4 or so years. It was a now or never situation I was in. Time and money wise.

Of course there was also the constraint of "How long can I just talk to a girl on the net without taking the next step?" Behaviorally, it also meant I was willing to jump in and bring her over if we got along moderately, even if not with

certainty.

So I book the flight about August 5th (?). In a sense I was planning on using Nastya. Using her to change my life for the better. I figured it was a risk, but at the same time the 3000 or so bucks budgeted is something that would easily

be compensated if it worked out - not just in a pleasant home-life (my then and now current situation is close to intolerable, but I will decline to elaborate further), but also in cash as she could easily get work in Canada to

compensate the $3000. All this required, as well, quite a bit of long term thinking on my part because the fiance visa process would take 6 months to a year.

I genuinely liked Nastya. I just add the above to let you guys know I had a bit of an "angle" as well, and it wasnt just all blind love.

[EvilBaga]

Now one thing: There are two types of knowledge. Emotional Knowledge and Intellectual Knowledge.

Old hands at this 'game' have a lot of knowledge to give - but its generally conveyed in the form of intellectual knowledge. As this is a very emotional game, what that generally translates to is the knowledge being ignored.

Another prominent factor is that emotional knowledge will differ according to the personality type and past experiences of the guy involved - even if reacting to a uniform (or at least similar) situation. To take an example - Being burned abroad, would lead to Aussieman to condemn the whole thing and never try again, to another type of person to try the same exact thing (that got him burned) again hoping to meet a different kind of woman who would understand him to all shades in between (sorry aussie - no disrespect meant nor do I know exactly what you would do- just trying to convey a thought succintly).

So, in this three part post - Ive tried to include a lot of emotional knowledge so newbies might actually pay attention. I wrote it, partially as catharsis, partially in reciprocation as I got some good advice here and partially just to help newbies. Vets, please refer newbies to it for at least a few months to come!

Firstly,
It should be strongly noted: The women you meet will not take it as seriously as you do. This could be as much economic as psychological. Even though a woman has signed up to meet someone abroad -
a) They have probably also signed up to meet someone locally. I found Nastya on lov.ru after all and didnt get her contact details from RLM.com. Maybe you get bonus points for being a foreigner (aura of mystery, exoticness, perceived as less callous than local men etc) but it could well be you loss points for being a foreigner (jarring change for woman, thinks money is too important).
Those deserve sub-comments :-

1)Jarring Change for a Woman. Here we have a person, nice or no, who is being asked to go to a country where they dont even speak the language or speak it at a basic level. Did you ever take french or Spanish in school? Not much
success right? Same Deal. In fact they might not realize the seriousness of it till you visit them. Thats dangerous for you, as you'll be out a $1500-2000 ticket, they lose nothing but a slight readjustment in thought patterns.

2) Money :- Even if the girl is honest, they have to stereotype - westerners are rich. With no further information to go on...Ergo its no big deal for the men to come over in their minds.

But its not just money to you.

Its listening to that asshole boss for another 200 hours, 2-3 months of no fun all work, the worry of interest accruing on your credit card. The girls cant see this, you can. Seeing how love and relationships is involved its all too easy for them (and you!) to think "This is for love, money is unimportant" - after all, they dont pay (I emphasize this applies to good girls as well, who you have a good chance of taking with you)

[EvilBaga]

Now this brings men to a quandry. We are going for love after all. And if its the first time, we have very limited emotional knowledge about the situation.

Meet 2 or 3 girls? As backup? Thats so cold. And so unfair to my special lady (and the others besides)! Absolutely true.

Meet or have as backup 2 or 3 ladies? But then I wont pay as much attention to my girl! Not very noble minded as all. Absolutely true.

If I set out to meet 2 or 3. Simple arithmetic tells me that 1 or 2 will be disappointed - is that fair to them? This one deserves comments.
Us men who go there, fueled by love have a tendency to think ourselves as saviours. This is natural and good. We are taking these girls away to a better life. However, with the absence of on the ground personal emotional experience -

its simply not understood that these girls are human beings who are living their lives out pretty ok. Not rich, hard work perhaps. Perhaps even harder times once their natural beauty fades at 30+. But nonetheless its the only life they

know. They do not consider it inferior, though they may schizophrenically want to go to the west more than stay in Ukraine/Russia (perhaps not all of them though).

So whats the solution? There isnt one. Only trade-offs.
-Maybe you should go on a tour.
-If visiting only one girl - maybe you should be prepared, if necessary, to contact others if things fail. And extend your trip time if necessary (flexible tickets)
-Maybe you should prearrange to meet 2 or more girls in the first place.
All with different rational and emotional trade-offs. But bear in mind my comments on their life. I doubt they would be devastated if it didnt work out between you two. Disappointed, yes. Devastated? no. Just my current opinion.

Just throwing this in - When I talked to Nastya seriously a few times. I asked her if she liked me, or if she didnt like me and that was the reason she didnt want to come. I added "Just be honest. I will not feel bad, but I need to

know". Her answer was always a serious "I dont know". Being nice? Keeping her options open? Either isnt very fair when I come half way around the world, and we have been talking for so long. I partially fault her for this - but a large

chunk of it is the weird situation we were in as well.

The question must be asked whats wrong with Western Women in the first place? A stealth question, because by implication, its why we are all here.
Part of the reason is of course Western women want men their own age so the pool is larger abroad for older men especially.
Partially the reason is western women are, on the average, fatter. Lets just admit it.
Partially also they are less attractive, even discounting the fat factor. I think this one is overhyped but still somewhat true.

However the above are, in my opinion, a small percentage of the reason. I wont elaborate here - but I strongly recommend everyone reading this read an article called "Sexual Utopia in Power" By F Roger Devlin who writes in it

extensively about Modern Male-Female Relatonships in the West. You can get it here: http://box.net/mensarefugee26388 (click the blue arrow). In my opinion, THIS IS A VERY IMPORTANT 'MUST READ' ARTICLE.
Its quite long, but I have never seen the western situation described better, with hard headed analysis, anywhere else. You'll know if you want to finish it after reading the first 10 or so of the 50 pages, so its not that big of a time

investment.

Of course the question arises- are Eastern Women different from Western ones? For Ukrainians and Russians, honestly I do not know. I strongly suspect there are differences and its worth risking, but thats just my opinion. For other

countries, for example mexico - Im a little more confident that there are differences. Read some of Fred Reed's articles on the subject: http://fredoneverything.net/ . A randomy chosen one where he tackles the subject (he has better,

Im just not going to search through the lot, do it yourself) is http://fredoneverything.net/Maureen2.shtml

[EvilBaga]

If you decide to take the plunge - it will probably be through an agency.

Rule 1: Get the agency out of the way as soon as possible. Start talking to the girl DIRECTLY. If she doesnt speak english, use BabelFish or Google Translate. They work pretty well. And you can always keep a Russian speaking

interpreter on hand just by searching kijiji ot craigslist or whatever for Russian language teachers.

A GOOD agency will have no problem with this. I think loveme.com,fiance.com, luckylovers.net are good, but Im not vouching for anyone. Bad ones FOR SURE - Russianlovematch.com/hotrussianbrides.com. Though I will admit they

taught Nastya English well (not a reason to choose them - it could just be their Yalta agency).

Another way is lov.ru / mamba.ru. As long as you can get an online russian keyboard, Google and wikipedia to learn the names of the oblasts (provinces/counties) in Russia/Ukraine. You can use it.

Learn to read Russian - its a phonetic language - so this is easy. For example POCCNA is russian. It just spells RUSSIA. 'P' has the sound of R, 'O' has the same sound in english, 'C' is s, 'N' is i (backwards 'N' actually) and 'A' is a.
Simple isnt it? only 33 letters, half of them the same as in english. Just do it. It will also help you if you decide to use/supplement your search with lov.ru anyway. And reading the signs when you are there is a big bonus. Another

example- PECTOPAH - which spells phonetically RESTORAN (restuarant). Before I actually learned to read it, I assumed it meant Gym - oddly placed gyms at that!

Try also Pimsleur Russian Level 1. I cant recommend Level 2 and above. Pimsleur explains a few things badly and these problems build up till its intolerable to use. But if you dont mind, by all mean. Also theres Rosetta Stone, I dont

like it, but you can try - especially for the letter learning. The best is the late Michel Thomas, but unfortunately he didnt make a Russian Course.

[EvilBaga]

Summary:
-Think about how many women you will meet carefully (tour, one,two, more-non tour). Remember its an emotional decision, and you have to make it. Others advice is sometimes useful, but they could react to different situations
differently from you.

- Get the agency out of the way ASAP. Ergo only use agencies that allow you to contact a lady for 10-50 bucks per address. Be careful with credit by the minute agencies, and try to only use them if you can get the ladies address from somewhere else and beware many, maybe the majority (chat agencies and the women on them) of them are scammers.
- OverBudget. Your trip will probably cost you 20-30% more than you think
- Use a flexible ticket if you can
- LEAVE A LOT OF TIME BETWEEN FLIGHTS FOR FLIGHT TRANSFERS ETC when visiting Ukraine/Russia
- Take a Russian Phrasebook and learn the russian letters and preferably some of the language
- Credit Cards. I found Visa easily used at Cash machines, and a lot of "Cirrus" Signs. I didnt see that many "Plus" Signs though - only on 2 ATMS on the promenade in Yalta. So plan accordingly.

Adman had asked (in part B)what I would do if Nastya contacted me. Honestly I dont know. Im moving towards not contacting her back, moving towards it being intellectual rather than emotional, but I wont know till it happens. If she doesnt contact me within the next two or so weeks Im quite certain I wont reply or contact her again. Before that is a grey area to me (or am I dreaming?).
The problem being of course, that I am effectively barred from contacting anyone else as I wont be able to follow through for a few years. But theres always college I guess. I got a lot of rickity options at the moment.

It was quite an experience, and though it went wrong - I think I learned a bit.

I hope the newbies got something from my posts. Thanks for reading.

[Winston]

Great analysis and observations.

As you said though, when you make the effort to travel all the way there, you are the one who has a lot to lose, not her. So why not arrange to meet several girls in each city and take it from there? You aren't obligated to commit to any of them yet until you meet them and spend time with them. So why only visit one? It makes no sense and sounds like you are brainwashed to like only one woman at a time.

I will share your story with my readers and have them learn from it.

In the meantime, I urge you to read my trip reports too, so you can learn from mine as well.

Download links:

http://www.happierabroad.com/RussiaJournals2002.doc

http://www.happierabroad.com/RussiaJournals2003.doc

http://www.happierabroad.com/RussiaJournals2004.doc

Welcome to Happier Abroad!

[Eduard]

I agree with Winston, travelling such distance and going through all that expence doesn't make much sense if you are going to meet only one woman (especially in Ukraine!!!).
My clients enjoy a 100% communication with girls with no language barrier, yet when they meet face to face sometimes there is no chemistry, sometimes other issues come up that you just can't find out about through virtual communication. I always advise men to have at least 3 to 5 women lined up. And to base who you are going to meet with, only on having a great connection with them on line first. From your post it sounds to me like you had no connection with this woman what so ever (maybe only in your own mind?)
I NEVER use agencies and don't really get the logic of men who do (other than lack of knowledge). Considering that most agencies are an outright scam, and even the few legit agencies still have a large percentage of women who are scammers, pro-daters and Green Card seekers why would anyone wanna use them??? And on top of that only a very tiny minority of single women sign up with agencies that market them to foreigners. In my estimation - less than 1% of available single women are on agency sites! And considering that 99% of Western men seeking a Russian/Ukrainian woman go through these agencies and hit on this 1% of single women it just doesn't make much sense when you can be among 1% of Western men hitting on the 99% of single Russian/Ukrainian women! Does it?
You had a terrible experience in Ukraine, a dissapointing, wasteful trip. But it didn't have to be that way at all!
I was in Ukraine and in Yalta last summer (at exactly the same time you were there) and part of september 3 different times in 2008 and all my clients had a very different experience. They each dated several women that they had gotten to know very well on line first. They already had a special connection and friendship with those women BEFORE they travelled to Ukraine to meet them. We stayed in a beautiful high end apartment for $150 a night (that's for both of us, meaning $75 per night, per person) My clients had me with them 24/7 which made the language barrier a non-issue (If a client wanted to be alone with his girl I would get lost but was always a phone call away). Had fun dating, enjoyed the beach, evening walks on the promenade and sight-seeing, and most importantly they are now engaged to be married to beautiful women.
One thing I will mention is that the women they wound up being engaged to are all from Russia, not from Ukraine. They came from Russia to meet with my clients and spend vacation in Yalta together.
Originally my clients (like most Western men) wanted to only meet women in Ukraine. But I insisted that they would at least talk to some Russian women and so they did.
As it turned out they had connected with Russian women best when they met in Yalta. If they only went to see Ukrainian women they would have had fun, had a nice time, but this wouldn't be their last trip to search for the life partner. IMHO if you want to find a good, honest, family oriented woman with no ulterior motives for marriage, prepare to make several trips to Ukraine, and spend years searching and tens of thousands of dollars on several trips. There are still some good women in Ukraine, but they are not easy to find and the search may take years...you can accoplish the same thing in Russia in about 4 months. The women in Russia are just as beautiful (genetically they are the same in Russia and Ukraine with some cultural differences) but they are typically not tainted by the "mailorder bride" industry, a lot less likely to use you (A normal Russian woman would never ask you for money the way your Ukrainian girl did) and generally more honest. In Ukraine it seems like everyone including women will try to use you and it is hard to find truly sincere people. It seems to be part of the culture there.
Frankly, reading your story of how you couldn't even get this girl to meet you for a few days after you arrived I'm not quite sure what made you even go there??? The girls that my clients fly to meet usually want to meet them at the airport! You sound like a smart guy, but very uninformed and naive when it comes to this particular subject. Hence your miserable experience in Ukraine when if done right it could have been a trip of a lifetime...

[EvilBaga]

Frankly, reading your story of how you couldn't even get this girl to meet you for a few days after you arrived I'm not quite sure what made you even go there???

Fair question. I explained it really though. I *thought* she was eager to meet me - because I had chatted with her on Russianlovematch.com, she even said she would prepare an apartment for me, and that's why I only booked a hotel room for 2 days. But the person I talked to was an IMPOSTER on Russianlovematch over the last 2 weeks before going. They got an imposter to chat with me to keep the money flowing (probably after she left that agency) Its all in my post, but perhaps a little haphazard.

You sound like a smart guy, but very uninformed and naive when it comes to this particular subject. Hence your miserable experience in Ukraine when if done right it could have been a trip of a lifetime...

Yup, I wont deny that. Still wanted to post this all anyway.

[EvilBaga]

I will share your story with my readers and have them learn from it.

Go ahead Winston.
If you even want to incorporate it into any future journals of yours as a "what other people have done" topic or whatever - go ahead. I have no objections.

Im ambivalent about pictures though, and besides, they are stuck in my old computer whose CPU has busted. *May* try to post something, maybe just her picture, or both of us, later on.

[Winston]

Evilbaga,
If Russianlovematch.com scammed you like that, you should file a report on them at http://www.ripoffreport.com

There is also a government sponsored site that you can file internet fraud reports on here: http://www.ic3.gov/complaint/default.aspx

Try and help warn others.

Also, Jim runs an anti Russian bride scam site at: http://www.agencyscams.com

You can file a report on his site here: http://www.agencyscams.com/Submit.html

BTW, if you think your story is bad, I have had an ex-fiancee and friend conspire with a con artist in Russia to defraud me in a hotel in Moscow once. Here is the story in full detail, but I warn you, people say this story makes their blood boil:

http://www.happierabroad.com/The_Negotiator_Scam.htm

[EvilBaga]

Well,
I guess Ill post some pictures. These are not for redistribution though. Common courtesy guys

Picture of Nastya when we went bowling. I sucked, she ruled.





When we stopped for a meal on the last day. Lots of small talk.




This was just before, or after I got her the painting after running across the promenade. I think its after, as I look out of breath!





Another bowling pic




The Pic of her and her cat that I gave to the painter.