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Italy Expat Report

Moderated subforum for expat living and dating discussions. Members only. Must qualify to participate. See guidelines inside. Civil behavior only. No trolls, attacks, insults, quarrels or racism.
Think Different
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Post by Think Different » September 18th, 2014, 9:42 pm

I don't wish to beat a dead horse here, but facts are facts. One of Italy's biggest claims (of itself) is that it is so community oriented and that people look out for each other. I've lived there and that is in many regards a fantasy. Families take care of their own, but that's as far as it goes. Public spaces are litter zones and people only care for their houses behind their own gates.

A recent 4-year global poll to determine the Happiness Index of nations around the world placed Italy SECOND TO LAST for community. See for yourselves:

http://blog.healthways.com/wp-content/u ... hart-5.png

To merely live abroad and live better than your compatriots, and yet take potshots at anyone who dares criticize the country of your birth, pretending it's the expat's own fault that things didn't work out, is intellectually dishonest and smacks of the sort of brainwashing that Americans grow up with.

This website is about finding YOUR PERSONAL happiness abroad, whatever country or place that may be. Just because Italy isn't suitable for people looking to start a family, grow a career, or find financial comfort, doesn't mean it's not a perfect place for vacation, for a child to grow up in cozy surroundings, or to retire to. Everyone has different reasons for going abroad, and they should be informed prior to doing so. That is the purpose of country reports. They're NOT for expats to look back and get their panties in a bunch, because a non-native criticized some realia about their distant country of birth that they aren't emotionally equipped to accept.




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publicduende
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Post by publicduende » September 19th, 2014, 12:15 am

Think Different wrote:I don't wish to beat a dead horse here, but facts are facts. One of Italy's biggest claims (of itself) is that it is so community oriented and that people look out for each other. I've lived there and that is in many regards a fantasy. Families take care of their own, but that's as far as it goes. Public spaces are litter zones and people only care for their houses behind their own gates.
You forgot to mention the fact that the decline of genuine social relationships and what you call "the sense of community" is a pervasive, worldwide phenomenon. You don't have safe heavens anymore, only societies and culture that oppose more inertia than others to the inevitable decline. To think that the Italy of 2014 is as gregarious, warm, welcoming and friendly as in a De Sica or Rossellini movie of yesteryear, is a delusion plain and simple. A bit like the US not being the set of a Frank Capra movie anymore, perhaps never having been.

Having said that, the sense of social cohesion, of belonging to a community was still alive and kicking in my hometown in the south (a town of about 65K, so not a large city but not a village, either) when I moved to the UK first, in 1998. I don't know whether things have gone downhill so quick and so badly, and frankly I doubt it, since every time I go back to visit my family and friends, everything looks exactly the same to me. But then, I am an insider, I am not a foreigner, and the faces I meet and greet are faces who have known me for the best part of 30 years.

That "public spaces are litter zones", well, that's true, especially in the south. Yet, it's true in a lot of other places. I can tell you, in the UK things have gone a lot better since the police and private corps littered public spaces with CCTV cameras, so people have quickly grown aware that dumping their old TV or broken sofa will probably have consequences. Having said that, there are lots of places in the UK packed with council estates and unemployed, welfare-addicted and petty thug kinds of people. Come visit a few of them and you'll see sights comparable if not worse with what you're decrying.
Think Different wrote: A recent 4-year global poll to determine the Happiness Index of nations around the world placed Italy SECOND TO LAST for community. See for yourselves:

http://blog.healthways.com/wp-content/u ... hart-5.png
Complete and utter bullcrap mate. I could find you dozens of "independent surveys" where the US, or any other country of your choice, is bottom or near bottom of the list. As with everything else in life, it's not much what you experience around you when you choose to live in an new and unfamiliar environment, it's how much you choose to be affected by the positive as well as the negative aspects of those experiences. Did unkempt and garbage-filled streets and public gardens directly affected your life in Italy to the point of making it unbearable? Or it was something else, something more substantial, like not being able to find a decent job to support yourself and your family? The latter I would understand.
Think Different wrote:To merely live abroad and live better than your compatriots, and yet take potshots at anyone who dares criticize the country of your birth, pretending it's the expat's own fault that things didn't work out, is intellectually dishonest and smacks of the sort of brainwashing that Americans grow up with.
If this is a (not so) veiled criticism on my take on Eurobrat, again, read above. Never meant to criticise his own take of Italy. It's just that, having followed his parable from beginning to end, I know that much, in fact too much of his terrible experience has nothing to do with Italy itself and a lot more to do with his lack of direction, the sky-high expectations and romantic stereotypes he packed his bags with. In his last few months, he basically turned into a ball of negativity, frustration and hate. I told him so many times to leave Como immediately and go elsewhere, but he didn't listen. As he didn't listen to any of whatever advice I would give him, which makes his blame shooting all the funnier, as neither of us will ever know whether things would have worked out if he had followed it.
Think Different wrote:This website is about finding YOUR PERSONAL happiness abroad, whatever country or place that may be. Just because Italy isn't suitable for people looking to start a family, grow a career, or find financial comfort, doesn't mean it's not a perfect place for vacation, for a child to grow up in cozy surroundings, or to retire to. Everyone has different reasons for going abroad, and they should be informed prior to doing so. That is the purpose of country reports. They're NOT for expats to look back and get their panties in a bunch, because a non-native criticized some realia about their distant country of birth that they aren't emotionally equipped to accept.
I didn't understand what you meant with the above. So Italy isn't that bad, but the moment someone you know is negatively biased spews poison and bullshite and starts a really stoopid and pointless name & blame game, you have to be "emotionally equipped to accept"? Sorry, but we stopped making discounts for Americanos a long ago.

MrPeabody
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Post by MrPeabody » September 19th, 2014, 8:36 pm

There is an interesting data sheet on Milan posted today on Rooshv.

http://www.rooshvforum.com/thread-40542.html

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publicduende
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Post by publicduende » September 20th, 2014, 11:06 am

MrPeabody wrote:There is an interesting data sheet on Milan posted today on Rooshv.

http://www.rooshvforum.com/thread-40542.html
Nice one.

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eurobrat
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Post by eurobrat » September 21st, 2014, 1:26 pm

publicduende wrote:
Think Different wrote:I don't wish to beat a dead horse here, but facts are facts. One of Italy's biggest claims (of itself) is that it is so community oriented and that people look out for each other. I've lived there and that is in many regards a fantasy. Families take care of their own, but that's as far as it goes. Public spaces are litter zones and people only care for their houses behind their own gates.
You forgot to mention the fact that the decline of genuine social relationships and what you call "the sense of community" is a pervasive, worldwide phenomenon. You don't have safe heavens anymore, only societies and culture that oppose more inertia than others to the inevitable decline. To think that the Italy of 2014 is as gregarious, warm, welcoming and friendly as in a De Sica or Rossellini movie of yesteryear, is a delusion plain and simple. A bit like the US not being the set of a Frank Capra movie anymore, perhaps never having been.

Having said that, the sense of social cohesion, of belonging to a community was still alive and kicking in my hometown in the south (a town of about 65K, so not a large city but not a village, either) when I moved to the UK first, in 1998. I don't know whether things have gone downhill so quick and so badly, and frankly I doubt it, since every time I go back to visit my family and friends, everything looks exactly the same to me. But then, I am an insider, I am not a foreigner, and the faces I meet and greet are faces who have known me for the best part of 30 years.

That "public spaces are litter zones", well, that's true, especially in the south. Yet, it's true in a lot of other places. I can tell you, in the UK things have gone a lot better since the police and private corps littered public spaces with CCTV cameras, so people have quickly grown aware that dumping their old TV or broken sofa will probably have consequences. Having said that, there are lots of places in the UK packed with council estates and unemployed, welfare-addicted and petty thug kinds of people. Come visit a few of them and you'll see sights comparable if not worse with what you're decrying.
Think Different wrote: A recent 4-year global poll to determine the Happiness Index of nations around the world placed Italy SECOND TO LAST for community. See for yourselves:

http://blog.healthways.com/wp-content/u ... hart-5.png
Complete and utter bullcrap mate. I could find you dozens of "independent surveys" where the US, or any other country of your choice, is bottom or near bottom of the list. As with everything else in life, it's not much what you experience around you when you choose to live in an new and unfamiliar environment, it's how much you choose to be affected by the positive as well as the negative aspects of those experiences. Did unkempt and garbage-filled streets and public gardens directly affected your life in Italy to the point of making it unbearable? Or it was something else, something more substantial, like not being able to find a decent job to support yourself and your family? The latter I would understand.
Think Different wrote:To merely live abroad and live better than your compatriots, and yet take potshots at anyone who dares criticize the country of your birth, pretending it's the expat's own fault that things didn't work out, is intellectually dishonest and smacks of the sort of brainwashing that Americans grow up with.
If this is a (not so) veiled criticism on my take on Eurobrat, again, read above. Never meant to criticise his own take of Italy. It's just that, having followed his parable from beginning to end, I know that much, in fact too much of his terrible experience has nothing to do with Italy itself and a lot more to do with his lack of direction, the sky-high expectations and romantic stereotypes he packed his bags with. In his last few months, he basically turned into a ball of negativity, frustration and hate. I told him so many times to leave Como immediately and go elsewhere, but he didn't listen. As he didn't listen to any of whatever advice I would give him, which makes his blame shooting all the funnier, as neither of us will ever know whether things would have worked out if he had followed it.
Think Different wrote:This website is about finding YOUR PERSONAL happiness abroad, whatever country or place that may be. Just because Italy isn't suitable for people looking to start a family, grow a career, or find financial comfort, doesn't mean it's not a perfect place for vacation, for a child to grow up in cozy surroundings, or to retire to. Everyone has different reasons for going abroad, and they should be informed prior to doing so. That is the purpose of country reports. They're NOT for expats to look back and get their panties in a bunch, because a non-native criticized some realia about their distant country of birth that they aren't emotionally equipped to accept.
I didn't understand what you meant with the above. So Italy isn't that bad, but the moment someone you know is negatively biased spews poison and bullshite and starts a really stoopid and pointless name & blame game, you have to be "emotionally equipped to accept"? Sorry, but we stopped making discounts for Americanos a long ago.
Image

Oh piper down you. Chi si loda, si lorda!

Brutto figlio di puttana bastardo! Bafangu chooch!

Non lasciar perdere. You come on here to spit on me and other Americanos, no one is taking what you write seriously anymore. Me and Think Different might be beating a dead carcass, but you have absolutely no idea how stupid you look defending the old lady.

You have two guys that packed up and left everything, both with ties to Italy and we arrived just to get kicked around and spit on. You didn't even listen to what he said about Italians not even respecting their public space, this says a lot about a society and the current state of affairs. Do you think they're running around in Singapore throwing trash and cigarette butt's everywhere? How about Switzerland?

These are our lives. Finally happy in Germany, we escaped the wrath of Italy to seek higher ground and better our lives. You just hate us because we're better off and you know it.

Felicità è la libertà.

Image

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publicduende
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Post by publicduende » September 21st, 2014, 4:01 pm

eurobrat wrote:Oh piper down you. Chi si loda, si lorda!

Brutto figlio di puttana bastardo! Bafangu chooch!

Non lasciar perdere. You come on here to spit on me and other Americanos, no one is taking what you write seriously anymore. Me and Think Different might be beating a dead carcass, but you have absolutely no idea how stupid you look defending the old lady.

You have two guys that packed up and left everything, both with ties to Italy and we arrived just to get kicked around and spit on. You didn't even listen to what he said about Italians not even respecting their public space, this says a lot about a society and the current state of affairs. Do you think they're running around in Singapore throwing trash and cigarette butt's everywhere? How about Switzerland?

These are our lives. Finally happy in Germany, we escaped the wrath of Italy to seek higher ground and better our lives. You just hate us because we're better off and you know it.

Felicità è la libertà.
If you speak this way, you are spitting on yourself. I just say that you were a ball of negativity and hate, then you walk in and show everybody that you're still a ball of negativity and hate.

At least spare us the rants and the gratuitous insults (you really think you can get away with calling me a "ugly bastard son of a bitch" just because it's in a different language?) if you want to give a shroud of credibility to your new "happier in Germany" persona.

Of course I read about TD's comments on Italians' respect for public spaces. The point I made was that, however reprehensible and depressing, the sight of dirty streets is probably not what made you want to leave Italy. Why am I telling you this, though, when it's quite clear that your only aim is to jump at any occasion to blame an entire country and a single person (me) for your state of social retardation. Enjoy your arsehole cheese and your lonely (but cheap) beers. Felicita' e' liberta'...if you manage to be happy and free from your demons. Which, as we can all see, are still haunting you alright.

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eurobrat
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Post by eurobrat » September 21st, 2014, 4:26 pm

publicduende wrote:
At least spare us the rants and the gratuitous insults (you really think you can get away with calling me a "ugly bastard son of a bitch" just because it's in a different language?) if you want to give a shroud of credibility to your new "happier in Germany" persona.
Cursing at you in Italian on this forum is a favorite past-time of mine and has nothing to do with my happiness in Berlin.

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publicduende
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Post by publicduende » September 21st, 2014, 4:37 pm

eurobrat wrote:
publicduende wrote:
At least spare us the rants and the gratuitous insults (you really think you can get away with calling me a "ugly bastard son of a bitch" just because it's in a different language?) if you want to give a shroud of credibility to your new "happier in Germany" persona.
Cursing at you in Italian on this forum is a favorite past-time of mine and has nothing to do with my happiness in Berlin.
You're losing it dude. Get yourself a nice girl or even a single friend who cares, because soon enough you will need them like a (living) fish needs its water.

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eurobrat
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Post by eurobrat » September 21st, 2014, 7:01 pm

publicduende wrote:
eurobrat wrote:
publicduende wrote:
At least spare us the rants and the gratuitous insults (you really think you can get away with calling me a "ugly bastard son of a bitch" just because it's in a different language?) if you want to give a shroud of credibility to your new "happier in Germany" persona.
Cursing at you in Italian on this forum is a favorite past-time of mine and has nothing to do with my happiness in Berlin.
You're losing it dude. Get yourself a nice girl or even a single friend who cares, because soon enough you will need them like a (living) fish needs its water.
Still flinging turd's and wishing ill on others I see.

You'll never change.

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publicduende
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Post by publicduende » September 21st, 2014, 7:06 pm

eurobrat wrote:Still flinging turd's and wishing ill on others I see.

You'll never change.
Not "wishing ill", simply realising that this is the case with you, and for reasons to do with your own issues.

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eurobrat
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Post by eurobrat » September 21st, 2014, 7:26 pm

publicduende wrote:
eurobrat wrote:Still flinging turd's and wishing ill on others I see.

You'll never change.
Not "wishing ill", simply realising that this is the case with you, and for reasons to do with your own issues.
Yea I don't know, you're kinda looking like this:

Image

Image

But theres good news, researchers say flinging your own feces is a sign of intelligence.

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publicduende
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Post by publicduende » September 21st, 2014, 7:49 pm

eurobrat wrote:
publicduende wrote:
eurobrat wrote:Still flinging turd's and wishing ill on others I see.

You'll never change.
Not "wishing ill", simply realising that this is the case with you, and for reasons to do with your own issues.
Yea I don't know, you're kinda looking like this:

But theres good news, researchers say flinging your own feces is a sign of intelligence.
Ha. Ha. Funny.

Jester
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Post by Jester » September 22nd, 2014, 1:58 am

publicduende wrote:
The worse economy and politics in Italy wasn't the reasons you were miserable in Italy, just as much as the better situation in Germany won't help you being happier.

Grow up.
Great thread here.

By way of background, I consider both PublicDuende and Euro to be friends. And friends I trust and can talk to are rare.

Euro is like me, maybe six months (or whatever) ahead of me in going overseas and making mistakes and discovering what's out there.

Public is that annoying guy who has already successfully expated to one country, fetched a sexy wife from another country, and then is there telling you how you f***ed it up. Probably all correct, but damn it's still annoying if you're the one currently mucking around trying stuff.

But anyway I just wanted to comment, that Public's comment here fits me well. Mexico's social circle closed-ness, and shitty economy, are NOT the reasons I am still mostly alone here. I brought plenty of woundedness, drama, trauma, issues, etc. down here with me from North America. I ain't perfect. ("Surprise. surprise, surprise!" -- Jim Neighbors, as Gomer Pyle) I WISH I had a fairy godfather (even an annoying one) to direct me. Starting a new life in a new country and culture is HARD.



Freakin' hard.

Jester
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Post by Jester » September 22nd, 2014, 2:05 am

zboy1 wrote:Okay, Publicduende, final warning.

Please take your disagreements with Eurobrat private--and not on the forum.

We don't need any more distractions messing-up the forum.
C'mon, ZBoy, I am enjoying what these two wops have to say.

:shock:

I said "wops"

:shock:

Jester
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Post by Jester » September 22nd, 2014, 2:08 am

eurobrat wrote:
But I'm much older and wiser now, I'll never fall for the cute colorful little old buildings and good food trick ever again.
+1

Not just re Italy. In general. I read Kathleen Peddicord or other expat stuff... almost irrelevant when it comes to relocating as a single man.

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