Why are Gun Rights such a fanatical religion in America? How do guns contribute anything to happiness or freedom?

[Moretorque]

I used to think the forces of evil wanted to disarm people so that they could not defend themselves from state tyranny...

Actually

A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State...

the idea was that people with guns would come to the defense of the State--not that they would defend themselves from the State.

As for the second half of the amendment

the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.

Well,

http://www.wyff4.com/news/local-gun-dea ... s/37866300

...Federal law prohibits felons from owning firearms and gun dealers from selling them weapons.

That is clearly an infringement of the right to keep and bear Arms. Moreover, it is the State that determines who is and isn't a felon.

From my reading I think you got it a little wrong, the " Bill of Rights " from my reading was demanded by the Anti Federalist when they put the Federal Government together. The Constitution states defend and support against " Enemies Foreign and domestic " which to me means a standing army built here at home as well. The Constitution originally allowed for a Navy to keep look out for England or other invading forces from the sea, little did they realize the ruling elite just needed to sneak the Kings bank in to take it over. Anyhow alot of the Fore Fathers were against standing armies and with good reason, just look around you.

The 2nd amendment is to back the 1st of peaceably assemble with grievances against the or a government. They could not do this in England or much of Europe, the European elite have been working on this for well over 300 years and these people new how helpless they were disarmed against the British Empire.

[Winston]

I don't understand something. Can someone explain? Why is gun control such a big deal in the conspiracy/truth/patriot movement? They act like having the right to bear arms is the most important freedom that we have, and that the loss of it means the end of freedom. The patriot movement acts like this is the biggest issue and most important freedom we have. It's like a religious issue to them, one beyond any reason or logic. Anyone who questions it is seen as a heretic to the patriot movement and is anti-freedom.

However, I don't see the logic or the reality behind their gun craze at all. In fact, I don't see why this is even an important issue at all. It seems like the least important issue, and definitely has no relevance to my life. But let's be logical and think about it for a moment. This idea that "gun ownership = freedom" is highly fallacious and very easy to debunk. Let me explain why. Here are several logical reasons why I think guns are unnecessary, do more harm than good, have little or nothing to do with personal freedom, and therefore is not the big issue that the Truth/Patriot movement makes it out to be. (I hope any patriot or truther reading this hears me out with an open mind.)

1. First, I've never needed a gun in my life. Neither have my closest expat friends who have been to 30 or 40 countries, including dangerous ones with high crime rates. As long as we have street smarts and exercise good common sense, we've been fine. We've never had a need for guns. So I cannot relate to this need at all. It seems that only psychotic or paranoid people think they "need" guns. Rational people who use common sense street smarts never seem to need one. In fact, if you ask police officers in America, most of them will tell you that they've gone their whole careers without ever having to fire a shot from their guns. That alone speaks volumes and should tell you how "necessary" they are. Now, if we were living in the violent chaotic Wild West, I could understand needing a gun. But not today.

2. Second, having a gun would probably do more harm than good. Not only do I not need one, as mentioned above, but I would not trust myself with one. Having a gun would give me a false sense of power, one that I might decide to abuse. Remember that humans, especially Americans, are prone to having power trips and can abuse it easily. Now, I happen to be a mild mannered person. But think of what a hot tempered person could do with a gun! Any little argument, and they could pull it out and use it or threaten others with it! Why would that be a good thing?

We've all seen those wild west movies where two guys get into a trivial argument in a saloon, and then it escalates into a quick draw match, which then ends up with someone getting killed. And we've all seen action films and wild west films where every little argument causes men to take out their guns and point them at others aggressively, even over the smallest things. Would you want to live in a society like that?! I believe that fights should be resolved with fist fights or clean boxing matches, not with guns. That way, no one has to get killed during a fight. Thus I don't think a society where every random person has a gun, including nutcases and crazy people, is necessarily a good idea. Why would it be? The patriot movement has not convinced me that that would be a good thing.

3. Third, we all know that gun violence in America is higher than in the other industrialized nations. A lot of people have been killed by guns in America, including innocent people. So why would giving more guns to more people be a good thing? Wouldn't that just make it worse? In Switzerland, for example, people are more rational and nonviolent compared to Americans, so even though most people there own guns obtained from their military service, they do not have gun violence there. But that's not true of Americans, who are more violence prone than Europeans are in general.

In fact, many good US leaders and politicians have been needlessly killed by guns, from Alexander Hamilton, to President Abraham Lincoln, to President William McKinley, to President John F. Kennedy. And many more US Presidents have been shot at in attempted assassinations. Thus America is a violent nation, not only in terms of its government, but its people are as well. Ask yourself this: How many US Presidents have been killed or shot at with guns? How many British Prime Ministers or Monarchs in England have been shot at with guns? There is no comparison. This speaks volumes. Why give guns to such a violent nation as America?

Furthermore, many people who commit suicide do so with guns. American movies seem to encourage this too, because they always show men putting a gun to their heads or in their mouths and killing themselves. I don't know why American movies love to show suicides by guns, as though it were a glorious way to go that the media encourages. It's really sick. So if you have a gun and one day feel depressed, you may be tempted to end your life with your own gun. Why make suicide easier to do, especially since its morally wrong in most cases? I think without guns, people would be less inclined to stab themselves with a knife. Knife suicides are less likely to succeed, since people sometimes survive them, so they are less efficient as suicide weapons. The point is, I don't think making suicide easy and quick is a good thing. Thus having a gun is a danger even to its owner, after all one never knows when one could become depressed and feel suicidal. Or a demon could possess you and make you feel like killing yourself or others too. You never know. Why take the risk, especially if it's unnecessary?

4. Fourth, guns don't preserve freedom. Maybe it did in 1776, but not today. Today the government has tanks, chemical weapons, drones, bombs, and other technological weapons they can use. Perhaps even lasers, ray beams and electromagnetic weapons too. So guns stand no chance against them. Also, militia armies and revolutions only work when they are UNITED and ORGANIZED. That won't happen in America, because the elite have everyone too segregated and distracted. Multiculturalism, fear, paranoia, individualism, the high need for privacy, etc. have divided people too much. And mass entertainments and smart phones have distracted people too much, along with consumerism. Thus the population has been successfully divided, distracted, preoccupied and pacified by the powers that be. So there is virtually no chance of Americans ever organizing into a serious revolution, even if they all have guns.

5. Fifth, I don't see how gun control automatically leads to tyranny. I was in China last year for 6 or 7 months. In China, one cannot buy guns, not even on the black market (as far as I know). Yet I did not see any tyranny there at all. In fact, I felt FREER than in the US. I was free to go wherever I wanted to in China, free to go out and buy whatever I wanted and needed, and free to make friends, talk to strangers and date beautiful girls, without feeling like a creep -- which is a lot more than I can say for the socially isolating lonely USA and its "no talking to strangers unless its for business" social culture. So what freedom did I lack in China that was taken away by China's "no guns allowed" policy? Did I miss something? lol. By the way, the ban on guns in China means that there is no gun violence in China. Isn't that a good thing? Even the criminals there don't manage to get guns in any black markets. Why is that?

Also, in China I didn't have to be politically correct on social issues. I could talk about gender differences and racial differences, without offending people, because mainland Chinese tend to be very down-to-earth and genuine themselves -- unlike fake Americans who are politically correct -- and therefore are not bothered by such things. Therefore, I could be honest and be myself, whereas I can't in the US because everything in the US nowadays has to be politically correct, especially on social issues. And since I'm not into political correctness, I felt freer in China than in America in that area. Moreover, I am a very down-to-earth person that's real, without any BS. But American culture is highly fake and based on flash rather than substance, so BSing a lot is part of its culture. So being a down-to-earth person, I am freer to be myself in China (and Russia too), than in America.

Furthermore, I like flirting with girls, picking up girls, talking strangers, etc. which is considered creepy and inappropriate in America, as well as a violation of social boundaries. But it is accepted as natural male behavior in China, Russia and many other countries. So again, in this area, I am much freer in China and Russia than in the US. You see, countries like China and Russia do not deny human nature or men's needs and rights, like America does, so as men we feel freer in such pro-male cultures like China, Russia and many others, than in America which places women's needs and rights far above men's, which we all know about (yet it is taboo in America to complain about this).

So you see, the prohibition of guns in China did NOT take away any of my freedoms. Am I missing something here? Or is the patriot movement in the US totally wrong and delusional? Now, it is true that in China, you are not given the right to criticize the government there. We all know that. However, this is a trivial matter which really doesn't matter. Think about it. Why is being free to criticize your government the most important freedom? In America, people criticize their government all day, and have throughout all of its history. Now they do it on the internet all the time. And popular conspiracy/patriot talk show hosts like Alex Jones, host of Info Wars, criticizes their government all the time and has been for many years, to an audience of approximately 4 million.

Yet what has that accomplished? What has that changed? Has Alex Jones been able to change government policy? Or lead to the arrest of any conspirators in government? NO! NOTHING! All he's done is raised awareness among many Americans about government conspiracies and crimes, which has pissed off many people sure. But he hasn't changed anything. So what's the use? Besides, the corporate media in both China and the US is controlled anyway. So even in the US mainstream media, dissenting opinion is not often heard. The conspiracy and patriot movements complain about this all the time. Therefore, the right to criticize your own government hasn't made any difference in America, and thus it's inconsequential, just like gun control.

In fact, there are freedoms that are far more important and directly affect our lives, such as:

1. Freedom to have the free time to do what you want and love.
2. Freedom to be yourself and to be honest.
3. Freedom from loneliness and social isolation.

These are far MORE important than the freedom to have guns or criticize your government. These freedoms directly affect my life and health and sanity greatly. My happiness and well being depend on these freedoms. Gun control is totally inconsequential compared to these. Fortunately though, there are two solutions to achieving these freedoms:

1. Moving abroad to a country with a much lower cost of living, thus greatly reducing our economic enslavement. Also for a better social life and dating life.
2. Making money through self employment, online websites or other forms of portable income. That way you can be free from the system and live off the grid.

These are very logical and sensible solutions, for all the reasons explained at HappierAbroad.com. Yet the conspiracy/patriot movements and the alternative media, NEVER mention these solutions for some reason. It's as if they have a blind spot to them, and a hive mind in which they all repeat each other's mistakes and lack any solutions. For a freethinker's movement to have a hive mind, is sort of an oxymoron. lol. Yet these solutions make sense and are logical. Already 2 or 3 million Americans live overseas, so solution #1 is very achievable and possible. Now I know that solution #2 is not easy, otherwise everyone would be doing it. Not everyone can do self-employment successfully. But some can and do. So it's a possibility for some people. And thus these solutions should at least be mentioned, even if only occasionally.

But the conspiracy/truther talk shows, podcasts and videos NEVER EVER mention them for some reason. Not even once. You can listen for thousands of hours to their stuff and learn a lot of interesting things, but they will NEVER mention these solutions for some reason. They act like these solutions don't even exist. It's really weird. Even the alternative media such as Russia Today or Info Wars doesn't mention them. You gotta wonder if they are all retarded or something. Not one of them mentions it. I'm the only guy in the conspiracy/truther movement that mentions these solutions, and thus I'm the only one in their camp that HAS solutions. That makes me the most unique and useful person in their movement probably. LOL. So I hope they will talk to me and put me on their talk shows so I can break new ground with them and clear their blindspots. We will see. I will contact them about all this and see how they react and how open these "truth seekers" are to such obvious truths.

So what do you all think? Why is all this craze and fervor about guns and the right to bear them so important to all these patriots and truthers? Why do they irrationally base their notion of freedom on it? Why does this seem like a religion to them? I can't see the logic behind it. And I disagree with them about it. Am I missing something? Am I right and everyone else is wrong? Or vice versa? How can one man be right and everyone else be wrong? What have I got wrong? Or am I the only sensible one and the rest of the truthers are retarded? What do you all think? I'd like some logical rational answers and explanations, not religious or delusional ones please.

Now, I'm not saying that I am all for gun control, but neither am I against it either. I am not arguing that government should ban all guns, but neither am I advocating that government allow everyone to have a gun either, or distribute them like candy. I don't think government holds the solutions or answers to solve problems. Government does not have as much power as paranoid Truthers presume they do. Therefore it does not hold the power to give me freedom or take it away. How can it? I don't even interact with the government except for trips to the post office, the customs line at the international airport, going to the DMV office, or getting stopped by a traffic cop. But these are all minor things that don't have anything to do with my personal freedoms. I've never had government bother me, or send federal agents to my door, or harass me with cops, etc. In fact, the government doesn't contact me at all. So what does my personal freedom have to do with government? It makes no sense.

My thesis and point here is that guns aren't really necessary, probably do more harm than good, are not a central factor at all in our freedoms, and therefore not even a big issue. There are far more important issues that matter, such as the ones I brought up above. Yet they aren't talked about, even in the alternative media. Instead, they always ramble about useless things, such as the right to keep guns, government surveillance, etc. I think they need to wake up and get a counterbalance to their follies, so the things that matter can receive more publicity and be brought to light.

Anyway, if any of my points about guns are wrong, I'd like to hear some logical sensible reasons why from any Truthers or Patriots. But I want rational arguments, not emotional ones. This seems to be a religious issue to the Truthers and Patriots, so I expect their counterarguments will be more emotional than logical.

[dreamofarakis]

democracy depends on the distribution of powers. Power corrupts, and absolute power corrupts absolutely. That is why there is a executive branch, a judicial branch, a legislative branch. Likewise the people must hold some power to balance out the government.

It's not that people in many other countries don't need guns, its that they're too ignorant to realize they need them. It's that most countries are actually run by repressive governments and the people don't really have a choice to have a gun, whether they need or want them or not. If you had a corral of slaves, would you want them armed?

"I ask, Sir, what is the militia? It is the whole people. To disarm the people is the best and most effectual way to enslave them."
George Mason
Co-author of the Second Amendment
during Virginia's Convention to Ratify the Constitution, 1788

Madison in federalist 27. "Besides the advantage of being armed, which the Americans possess over the people of almost every other nation, .."

Enjoy the second amendment while we have it in America because it's not going to last much longer.

[Winston]

democracy depends on the distribution of powers. Power corrupts, and absolute power corrupts absolutely. That is why there is a executive branch, a judicial branch, a legislative branch. Likewise the people must hold some power to balance out the government.

It's not that people in many other countries don't need guns, its that they're too ignorant to realize they need them. It's that most countries are actually run by repressive governments and the people don't really have a choice to have a gun, whether they need or want them or not. If you had a corral of slaves, would you want them armed?

"I ask, Sir, what is the militia? It is the whole people. To disarm the people is the best and most effectual way to enslave them."
George Mason
Co-author of the Second Amendment
during Virginia's Convention to Ratify the Constitution, 1788

Madison in federalist 27. "Besides the advantage of being armed, which the Americans possess over the people of almost every other nation, .."

Enjoy the second amendment while we have it in America because it's not going to last much longer.

You're spouting a religious belief, not a logical or rational or factual one. Guns may have preserved freedom in 1776, but they certainly don't today. See my five point explanation above for why they do not. Speaking of which, you did not address my five points above about why gun control is not an important issue, and certainly isn't the biggest aspect of having freedom. There are many other freedoms far more important than having guns. Please read my five points above. I challenge you to refute them or address them logically, without any religious bias toward guns.

[dreamofarakis]

democracy depends on the distribution of powers. Power corrupts, and absolute power corrupts absolutely. That is why there is a executive branch, a judicial branch, a legislative branch. Likewise the people must hold some power to balance out the government.

It's not that people in many other countries don't need guns, its that they're too ignorant to realize they need them. It's that most countries are actually run by repressive governments and the people don't really have a choice to have a gun, whether they need or want them or not. If you had a corral of slaves, would you want them armed?

"I ask, Sir, what is the militia? It is the whole people. To disarm the people is the best and most effectual way to enslave them."
George Mason
Co-author of the Second Amendment
during Virginia's Convention to Ratify the Constitution, 1788

Madison in federalist 27. "Besides the advantage of being armed, which the Americans possess over the people of almost every other nation, .."

Enjoy the second amendment while we have it in America because it's not going to last much longer.

You're spouting a religious belief, not a logical or rational or factual one. Guns may have preserved freedom in 1776, but they certainly don't today. See my five point explanation above for why they do not. Speaking of which, you did not address my five points above about why gun control is not an important issue, and certainly isn't the biggest aspect of having freedom. There are many other freedoms far more important than having guns. Please read my five points above. I challenge you to refute them or address them logically, without any religious bias toward guns.

I didn't say that your other freedoms aren't important. Yes perhaps they are more important to the happiness of an individual, but in order to work on improving those freedoms we must preserve the fundamental freedom, which is freedom from slavery. If we are slaves then we have nothing at all. If we are not slaves then we can work on gaining those other freedoms.

What makes you think guns don't preserve freedom today? If you knew more about military operations you would know that guns do preserve freedom today, perhaps not as much as they did in 1776 when all everyone had was guns, but they still go a long way.

How is what I say "religious." The theory of entities are capital maximizing is at the center of economics and political science. Entities tend to want to maximize their resources. That means enslaving the population if they can get away with it.

in regards to your points:

1. if you win the lottery then you will need a gun. If that happens you will wish you had one. You will be dead after that it wont matter.

2. many people choose to not conceal carry. Having a gun doesnt mean you have to carry it at all times.

3. some of the most dangerous countries in the world have bans on guns: Russia, South Africa, Colombia, Venezuela, Guatemala, Mexico. Criminals know other people aren't armed so they go abuse with impunity. When you know anyone might have a gun, you will be less likely to think its a good idea to break into someones house or rob them.

4. look at the japan knife attacks 19 people dead with a knife. Look at the france guy that ran over huge amounts of people with a car. Look at the 150 people killed in the france attacks despite of the gun bans in those countries. People will kill people regardless of whether guns are illegal or not.

I know you think that living in China you are more free. But the reason you are able to socialize more easily is because in a less developed country people tend to be less materialistic. I bet that if you looked into China's laws there's laws that say that harrassment of women is illegal and the cops there could throw you in jail if they felt like it for talking to stranger women on the street.

[Winston]

You guys arent answering my questions. Why should i feel safe about every random person around me having guns?

Remember in old west movies when bar brawls turned into gunfights and someone got killed? Why do you support that? A fist fight should be just that, not turned into a gunfight.

Also how come theres gun control in China yet no government tyranny or mass killings by the army?

That's because you are not paying attention. They have gun control in China and no one is dead because guns are still legal elsewhere in the world. The genocide can not start if half the world still has weapons. Those who have weapons will see that government is evil and therefore how necessary guns are. Is this so hard to comprehend? When gun rights in the USA are finished, that is when they can proceed with culling the herd of humanity. Until then they are working piecemeal to get things done. This is done so slowly that people do not notice.

Also, the majority of the mass shootings are fake. From Elliot Roger, to the Boston Bombing, to Virginia, to Sandy Hook. They are faked by the government to introduce legislation to take away rights on an incremental basis. It is a slow, steady march.

Now if you are not ready to accept that truth, then stop asking those questions.

This doesn't make sense. If the government wanted to genocide people, they'd do it with chemical warfare, electromagnetic weapons, chemtrails, food poisoning/GMO's, spreading deadly germs and viruses, etc. Having guns doesn't prevent any of that. The government also has tanks and bombs and drones. People with guns are no match for that.

Why do I need a gun? Rock and Ladislav have been to many dangerous countries with high crime, yet they never needed a gun. All they needed was good common sense and they were safe. Also, why is this a big issue in the patriot/conspiracy movement? It's not like all freedom hangs on this issue. Yet they act like it's big central issue. I don't get it.

[dreamofarakis]

You guys arent answering my questions. Why should i feel safe about every random person around me having guns?

Remember in old west movies when bar brawls turned into gunfights and someone got killed? Why do you support that? A fist fight should be just that, not turned into a gunfight.

Also how come theres gun control in China yet no government tyranny or mass killings by the army?

That's because you are not paying attention. They have gun control in China and no one is dead because guns are still legal elsewhere in the world. The genocide can not start if half the world still has weapons. Those who have weapons will see that government is evil and therefore how necessary guns are. Is this so hard to comprehend? When gun rights in the USA are finished, that is when they can proceed with culling the herd of humanity. Until then they are working piecemeal to get things done. This is done so slowly that people do not notice.

Also, the majority of the mass shootings are fake. From Elliot Roger, to the Boston Bombing, to Virginia, to Sandy Hook. They are faked by the government to introduce legislation to take away rights on an incremental basis. It is a slow, steady march.

Now if you are not ready to accept that truth, then stop asking those questions.

This doesn't make sense. If the government wanted to genocide people, they'd do it with chemical warfare, electromagnetic weapons, chemtrails, food poisoning/GMO's, spreading deadly germs and viruses, etc. Having guns doesn't prevent any of that. The government also has tanks and bombs and drones. People with guns are no match for that.

Why do I need a gun? Rock and Ladislav have been to many dangerous countries with high crime, yet they never needed a gun. All they needed was good common sense and they were safe. Also, why is this a big issue in the patriot/conspiracy movement? It's not like all freedom hangs on this issue. Yet they act like it's big central issue. I don't get it.

yes the government could use those types of weapons but then how are they going to profit from dead sheep. You want your sheep alive in the corral so you can get your taxes.

Maybe YOU don't need a gun. The way for you to not have a gun is very simple, don't buy one. Then you won't have a gun and you will be happy not having a gun.

[Winston]

Guns are needed in the States because the culture is violent, the people are mostly a**holes, and crime is very high. Also, it's a dysfunctional, multicultural mess-of-a-society, with a tyrannical, war-mongering government. So, it would make sense for innocent people to be armed. Now, in peaceful societies such as Japan, guns aren't really needed, so it depends on the situation and the country.

But if you allow guns, then all the assholes and crazies in the US will get the guns too. Why do you want that? Why is that a good thing? Plus a normal person in the US could go crazy or psycho at any moment, because he or she could lose it in the toxic US culture. Or maybe demons could suddenly possess them. Etc. I don't think the average asshole or prick or hot tempered person in the US knows where to go in the black market to get a gun, if guns became illegal.

Besides if there was gun control, and everyone turned in their guns, if the US government wanted to, it could shut down all the black markets where people get guns too. Just like how the US government could shut down all the drugs coming in if they wanted to, hence the drug war is phony. Think about it. If the US can organize something as elaborate and efficient as D-Day and war operations, then it could easily shut down all black markets in America, if it really wanted to that is. But the US has to allow some crime to exist, otherwise it could not justify law enforcement funding, and bigger government with more laws. That's why crime and black markets for drugs and guns are DELIBERATELY allowed to exist.

[Winston]

Remember in old west movies when bar brawls turned into gunfights and someone got killed? Why do you support that? A fist fight should be just that, not turned into a gunfight.

Because the movies are accurate portrayals of history. Just wow. My mind is blown here, Winston.

You should not be surprised....
Tell the tens of millions slaughtered in China in the last 60 years about the lack of tyranny in China. Tell the thousands of people, mostly fulan gong and house Christians who are being g imprisoned and murdered to this day, often by being cut up alive for their body organs, about lack of tyranny. Tell the 60% of Chinese wealthy who want to or already have, fled China, about lack of tyranny. They know, that when the tyrant's wheel turns in China, it will likely turn on them, so they are getting the hell out of Dodge.

You should be skeptical about what the US media tells you. They LIE and MISPORTRAY other countries all the time. For example they always say there's a male surplus and female shortage in China. Yet in China's cities, I saw more women than men. So I didn't see a shortage of women at all. NO WAY. So what you heard above about all the persecution could be lies too. I never saw any of it in China. The cops there are very polite and act like regular guys. They don't have power trips like US cops too. I once saw Chinese cops wait a whole hour for a drunk guy on the sidewalk to get up. They were too nice to him to force him up. So what I see and what the US says are very different.

[dreamofarakis]

Guns are needed in the States because the culture is violent, the people are mostly a**holes, and crime is very high. Also, it's a dysfunctional, multicultural mess-of-a-society, with a tyrannical, war-mongering government. So, it would make sense for innocent people to be armed. Now, in peaceful societies such as Japan, guns aren't really needed, so it depends on the situation and the country.

But if you allow guns, then all the assholes and crazies in the US will get the guns too. Why do you want that? Why is that a good thing? Plus a normal person in the US could go crazy or psycho at any moment, because he or she could lose it in the toxic US culture. Or maybe demons could suddenly possess them. Etc. I don't think the average asshole or prick or hot tempered person in the US knows where to go in the black market to get a gun, if guns became illegal.

Besides if there was gun control, and everyone turned in their guns, if the US government wanted to, it could shut down all the black markets where people get guns too. Just like how the US government could shut down all the drugs coming in if they wanted to, hence the drug war is phony. Think about it. If the US can organize something as elaborate and efficient as D-Day and war operations, then it could easily shut down all black markets in America, if it really wanted to that is. But the US has to allow some crime to exist, otherwise it could not justify law enforcement funding, and bigger government with more laws. That's why crime and black markets for drugs and guns are DELIBERATELY allowed to exist.

You're such a smart guy Winston. And yet with your superior intellect you still want a gun ban. That's why I say to the people here enjoy your second amendment rights because they are not going to last long.

guns are against the human instinct. Guns feel dangerous. Guns feel bad. People are ruled by emotions. The second amendment stands no chance in the long term.

You speak of all the things governments do, and yet you want the people to surrender all power to government? Your whole site is about the things governments do, and yet you want people to surrender all power to government?

That the US society is like you say it is I agree with. But we have the power to change things. We have the power to make things better. We just need to do what we can to not be enslaved so we maintain the capability.

[Winston]

I didn't say that your other freedoms aren't important. Yes perhaps they are more important to the happiness of an individual, but in order to work on improving those freedoms we must preserve the fundamental freedom, which is freedom from slavery. If we are slaves then we have nothing at all. If we are not slaves then we can work on gaining those other freedoms.

What makes you think guns don't preserve freedom today? If you knew more about military operations you would know that guns do preserve freedom today, perhaps not as much as they did in 1776 when all everyone had was guns, but they still go a long way.

You are assuming that if everyone had their guns confiscated in America, that the government would immediately declare martial law and make everyone a slave. Where do you get that? That sounds paranoid, not realistic. What evidence do you have that this would happen? Moreover, it's not that easy to make everyone a slave. The government doesn't have anywhere near enough men to monitor and enslave 300 million people. Be realistic. No government can do that.

How is what I say "religious." The theory of entities are capital maximizing is at the center of economics and political science. Entities tend to want to maximize their resources. That means enslaving the population if they can get away with it.

They already enslave the population with money, inflation, drugs and mass media. You are merely assuming that they want to enslave you with guns too. How would they? By posting an armed guard in front of every home in America? LOL. Come on. That is delusional. Be realistic here. You are being religious because your points come from religious beliefs about guns, rather than about evidence, facts or logic.

in regards to your points:

1. if you win the lottery then you will need a gun. If that happens you will wish you had one. You will be dead after that it wont matter.

2. many people choose to not conceal carry. Having a gun doesnt mean you have to carry it at all times.

3. some of the most dangerous countries in the world have bans on guns: Russia, South Africa, Colombia, Venezuela, Guatemala, Mexico. Criminals know other people aren't armed so they go abuse with impunity. When you know anyone might have a gun, you will be less likely to think its a good idea to break into someones house or rob them.

4. look at the japan knife attacks 19 people dead with a knife. Look at the france guy that ran over huge amounts of people with a car. Look at the 150 people killed in the france attacks despite of the gun bans in those countries. People will kill people regardless of whether guns are illegal or not.

Yeah if I win the lottery, maybe I'll get a gun. But that's an extreme scenario. Not an average or realistic one. What's the point of having a gun if you don't carry it? I've never had anyone break into my home before. Not even in the Philippines. I don't attract violence. Maybe some do.

As to the attacks in Japan and France, as Adama told us, many of them are probably staged if you do the research. Also these are extreme examples, not typical ones. Any one can cherry pick. I can find many stories where innocent people were killed with guns. Also, many people commit suicide with guns too. White guys especially are prone to shooting themselves in the head or putting a gun in their mouth. You even see it in the movies a lot. If you own a gun and become depressed, you could kill yourself with a gun. Why is that a good thing? I think people would have a harder time killing themselves with a knife than with a gun. Why make suicide so easy?

Also, if the government wanted to kill someone, it could do it with a rifleman or sniper from far away. So even if you had a gun, you wouldn't stand a chance. When the mafia orders a hit on someone, it comes as a surprise. They won't warn you in advance so that you will prepare for it. In these cases, having a gun won't help you.

I know you think that living in China you are more free. But the reason you are able to socialize more easily is because in a less developed country people tend to be less materialistic. I bet that if you looked into China's laws there's laws that say that harrassment of women is illegal and the cops there could throw you in jail if they felt like it for talking to stranger women on the street.

Sure, but flirting with women isn't considered harassment in China or in most countries either. It's seen as a natural thing. Men have always courted women, pursued women and charmed women for centuries. Most countries realize this and accept it and do not demonize it. Only feminists and liberals demonize it. In China, women don't call security when a guy flirts with her. That's not harassment. In contrast, women in the US do call security when you flirt on them. It's happened to me.

Speaking of China, how come there is no gun crimes there? How come criminals in China don't have guns?

yes the government could use those types of weapons but then how are they going to profit from dead sheep. You want your sheep alive in the corral so you can get your taxes.

Maybe YOU don't need a gun. The way for you to not have a gun is very simple, don't buy one. Then you won't have a gun and you will be happy not having a gun.

Exactly. Why would the government want everyone dead? That was my point. So why do you think they would kill everyone with guns if everyone gave up their guns? That was the point I was making to Adama.

Ok I don't need a gun. So why does anyone else? Maybe they are paranoid and psychotic. Maybe they don't need one either? All the most experienced travelers I know didn't need a gun, even when they were in dangerous countries.

In the US, even most police officers claim they've never had to fire a gun in the line of duty during their whole career, which could be decades. That should tell you how "necessary" guns are.

[Winston]

One more argument against guns:

Many people who commit suicide do so with guns. American movies seem to encourage this too, because they always show men putting a gun to their heads or in their mouths and killing themselves. I don't know why American movies love to show suicides by guns, as though it were a glorious way to go that the media encourages. It's really sick. So if you have a gun and one day feel depressed, you may be tempted to end your life with your own gun. Why make suicide easier to do, especially since its morally wrong in most cases? I think without guns, people would be less inclined to stab themselves with a knife. Knife suicides are less likely to succeed, since people sometimes survive them, so they are less efficient as suicide weapons. The point is, I don't think making suicide easy and quick is a good thing. Thus having a gun is a danger even to its owner, after all one never knows when one could become depressed and feel suicidal. Or a demon could possess you and make you feel like killing yourself or others too. You never know. Why take the risk, especially if it's unnecessary?

[dreamofarakis]

One more argument against guns:

Many people who commit suicide do so with guns. American movies seem to encourage this too, because they always show men putting a gun to their heads or in their mouths and killing themselves. I don't know why American movies love to show suicides by guns, as though it were a glorious way to go that the media encourages. It's really sick. So if you have a gun and one day feel depressed, you may be tempted to end your life with your own gun. Why make suicide easier to do, especially since its morally wrong in most cases? I think without guns, people would be less inclined to stab themselves with a knife. Knife suicides are less likely to succeed, since people sometimes survive them, so they are less efficient as suicide weapons. The point is, I don't think making suicide easy and quick is a good thing. Thus having a gun is a danger even to its owner, after all one never knows when one could become depressed and feel suicidal. Or a demon could possess you and make you feel like killing yourself or others too. You never know. Why take the risk, especially if it's unnecessary?

im curious why you believe in demons. Why do you believe they exist?

[Winston]

You're such a smart guy Winston. And yet with your superior intellect you still want a gun ban. That's why I say to the people here enjoy your second amendment rights because they are not going to last long.

guns are against the human instinct. Guns feel dangerous. Guns feel bad. People are ruled by emotions. The second amendment stands no chance in the long term.

You speak of all the things governments do, and yet you want the people to surrender all power to government? Your whole site is about the things governments do, and yet you want people to surrender all power to government?

That the US society is like you say it is I agree with. But we have the power to change things. We have the power to make things better. We just need to do what we can to not be enslaved so we maintain the capability.

I never said I was in favor of banning guns. I am on the fence and do not advocate either side. Either way is extreme. Neither is a perfect solution. I'm merely saying that guns aren't necessary and I don't see why this is such a big hot topic issue in the patriot/truther/conspiracy movement.

Yeah guns are unnatural. Before they were invented in the 1300's, people did not need them.

I never said people should surrender to the government. When did I say that? lol. No way. You assume that the government would be total tyranny without guns in the hands of the people. How come I don't see tyranny in China today? It's an assumption on your part and on the patriot movement. That's why I call it a religious belief. It's a belief without basis in reality.

I do think government is too big though. It should be smaller like it was in the 1800's. Once it grows it never wants to shrink.

I agree we should try to change things. But we gotta pick something realistic to do. Trying to start a revolution or change the government isn't realistic. Otherwise, just go abroad and let the system collapse by itself. All empires eventually do. Just let it run its natural course. Karma eventually balances out everything. For now, focus on things you can control. Not things you can't.

My point is, I don't see why guns are a solution or why they are necessary or why they are even an issue. I haven't seen any logical reasons yet. Only religious assertions.

[Winston]

One more argument against guns:

Many people who commit suicide do so with guns. American movies seem to encourage this too, because they always show men putting a gun to their heads or in their mouths and killing themselves. I don't know why American movies love to show suicides by guns, as though it were a glorious way to go that the media encourages. It's really sick. So if you have a gun and one day feel depressed, you may be tempted to end your life with your own gun. Why make suicide easier to do, especially since its morally wrong in most cases? I think without guns, people would be less inclined to stab themselves with a knife. Knife suicides are less likely to succeed, since people sometimes survive them, so they are less efficient as suicide weapons. The point is, I don't think making suicide easy and quick is a good thing. Thus having a gun is a danger even to its owner, after all one never knows when one could become depressed and feel suicidal. Or a demon could possess you and make you feel like killing yourself or others too. You never know. Why take the risk, especially if it's unnecessary?

im curious why you believe in demons. Why do you believe they exist?

That's a topic for another thread. I think they might exist. There are real life cases of demonic possessions. Ask any exorcist or priest. There are many case studies. I believe the spirit world exists and so there are good and bad entities. I've experienced things from the spirit world, so if it exists, then many other possibilities are valid too, such as demons, angels or guardian spirits. You should talk to Adama about this.

Why should you believe demons don't exist? Because arrogant ignorant atheistic scientists say so? Because they deny them and deny the spirit world and have an agenda to take God out of science and evolution and make him unnecessary? Those people are clearly biased. Why should I listen to them? They don't analyze evidence on both sides and have a bias toward atheism, and their careers depend on it too. You are not allowed to talk about intelligent design in science or you will be booted or fired. See the documentary "Expelled: No Intelligence Allowed".

When you have more life experience, you come to believe that a spirit world does exist, for many reasons. I can't go into all of them now. They are elaborate on in other threads. Think about this: Mankind has believed in spirits and gods for thousands of years. So belief in them is NATURAL, which means there's probably something to it all.

Perhaps you should ask: How come most Western men are Atheists today? You'd have had a hard time finding an Atheist in the 1800's and prior, when virtue, honor, principles and morals mattered more than today. Why is that? Is it just a coincidence that world revolutions tend to move the society toward atheism? Is it just a coincidence that the Bavarian Illuminati created in 1776 listed as its agenda, an aim to promote atheism and turn people away from religion toward materialistic science?

See this other thread for more about the problem with atheism:
viewtopic.php?f=15&t=30590