Can women be great leaders? Has there ever been one?

[Cornfed]

However, I still believe the vast majority of management-level people in private company are recruited with some degree of merit in mind, and that obviously applies to women.

Just out of interest, what particular talents do you imagine women in senior management positions to have? Mostly they lack technical skills and like essentially all Western women they are complete assholes. What mysterious skill set are you referring to that justifies their high salaries? What specific things can they do better than the average man in the street?

[publicduende]

However, I still believe the vast majority of management-level people in private company are recruited with some degree of merit in mind, and that obviously applies to women.

Just out of interest, what particular talents do you imagine women in senior management positions to have? Mostly they lack technical skills and like essentially all Western women they are complete assholes. What mysterious skill set are you referring to that justifies their high salaries? What specific things can they do better than the average man in the street?

That being my point. A woman who's smart, did her maths and physics or engineering, did a good MBA and a few years of corporate career won't be either better or worse than a man with the same curriculum. There's nothing that proves a woman is necessarily better. In fact, judging from the student population at the better undergrad and postgraduate courses, women fare on average better than men. Now, you would say all it's because of positive action or quotas. I call that BS. Women have the same intellectual abilities than men. They can be as bad as them, or as good as them. Probably a little bit moodier than men though

[zboy1]

However, I still believe the vast majority of management-level people in private company are recruited with some degree of merit in mind, and that obviously applies to women.

Just out of interest, what particular talents do you imagine women in senior management positions to have? Mostly they lack technical skills and like essentially all Western women they are complete assholes. What mysterious skill set are you referring to that justifies their high salaries? What specific things can they do better than the average man in the street?

That being my point. A woman who's smart, did her maths and physics or engineering, did a good MBA and a few years of corporate career won't be either better or worse than a man with the same curriculum. There's nothing that proves a woman is necessarily better. In fact, judging from the student population at the better undergrad and postgraduate courses, women fare on average better than men. Now, you would say all it's because of positive action or quotas. I call that BS. Women have the same intellectual abilities than men. They can be as bad as them, or as good as them. Probably a little bit moodier than men though

Publicduende, I've posted many articles detailing the decline of academic performance of men over the years; women are now racing ahead of men in both K-12 and college/university grade levels. This is a disturbing trend that I see for men in the future...

[pete98146]

I have an odd feeling that Hilary will be running the show in 4 years. Guess we'll know then.

[abcdavid01]

However, I still believe the vast majority of management-level people in private company are recruited with some degree of merit in mind, and that obviously applies to women.

Just out of interest, what particular talents do you imagine women in senior management positions to have? Mostly they lack technical skills and like essentially all Western women they are complete assholes. What mysterious skill set are you referring to that justifies their high salaries? What specific things can they do better than the average man in the street?

That being my point. A woman who's smart, did her maths and physics or engineering, did a good MBA and a few years of corporate career won't be either better or worse than a man with the same curriculum. There's nothing that proves a woman is necessarily better. In fact, judging from the student population at the better undergrad and postgraduate courses, women fare on average better than men. Now, you would say all it's because of positive action or quotas. I call that BS. Women have the same intellectual abilities than men. They can be as bad as them, or as good as them. Probably a little bit moodier than men though

Publicduende, I've posted many articles detailing the decline of academic performance of men over the years; women are now racing ahead of men in both K-12 and college/university grade levels. This is a disturbing trend that I see for men in the future...

I think that has less to do with men getting dumber than women than it does with schools catering more to girls and colleges to women. Actually, I would be very reluctant to place any male heir of mine in public schools, at least here in America. My parents thought I'd be more fit as a scholar, so they had me enroll in this elite high school, but I found it woefully inadequate. They weren't necessarily wrong about my temperament, but I still think I'd have gotten a much better experience in the vocational school on campus. Males crave action and it's just hard for guys to sit in a desk for hours on end. Soul crushing. Plus most teachers are women, so there's a lack of the classical apprenticeship bond that goes as far back as men in tribes teaching their heirs to hunt. Since dropping out of college I just feel like my education has increased tenfold. It is a disturbing trend, so I want to drop out of it both for myself and future offspring. Happier abroad. It's about more than women.

In any case, you say you've posted this before zboy1. I would very much like to hear your analysis if you don't mind sharing again.

[publicduende]

However, I still believe the vast majority of management-level people in private company are recruited with some degree of merit in mind, and that obviously applies to women.

Just out of interest, what particular talents do you imagine women in senior management positions to have? Mostly they lack technical skills and like essentially all Western women they are complete assholes. What mysterious skill set are you referring to that justifies their high salaries? What specific things can they do better than the average man in the street?

That being my point. A woman who's smart, did her maths and physics or engineering, did a good MBA and a few years of corporate career won't be either better or worse than a man with the same curriculum. There's nothing that proves a woman is necessarily better. In fact, judging from the student population at the better undergrad and postgraduate courses, women fare on average better than men. Now, you would say all it's because of positive action or quotas. I call that BS. Women have the same intellectual abilities than men. They can be as bad as them, or as good as them. Probably a little bit moodier than men though

Publicduende, I've posted many articles detailing the decline of academic performance of men over the years; women are now racing ahead of men in both K-12 and college/university grade levels. This is a disturbing trend that I see for men in the future...

I mentioned it to actually argue the opposite, that even despite the apparent gap in achievement levels, I wouldn't feel like venturing into a sweeping generalisation such as "women are smarter than men", or vice-versa. I have read some articles on the topic, too. They were pointing at just about anything, from the levels of fluoride in water that reduces testosterone levels, to the "girl power" mantra, to families being keener than even to encourage women to pursue independence.

Too many opinions on the table, many seemingly contradicting one another. I would simply suspend judgment until I see, perhaps 10or 20 years down the line, what these young women are doing with their degrees and aspirations. If this equality, when not disproportion, won't reflect in a comparable number of women in culturally or socially high spots, then I would conclude that either women are better at learning than applying knowledge, or the glass ceiling is still holding strong. In the latter case, I wouldn't see much of a point with the usual "women as the Great Manipulators" stereotype.

[Teal Lantern]

Maybe we are not all reading the original question in the same manner.

Some are taking it (as I did) in context of what women have historically shown (how well those that chose to become leaders did the job).
"Iron Lady" minority vs. "Math is Hard" majority

Others may be seeing it as a question of innate ability at birth.
This, I think, may reveal a different answer.

It's like asking are men smarter by evidence of men doing the hard work?
Or, are women smarter by evidence of ... the men doing the hard work?

[Andrewww]

Let's face it, school grades don't amount for s**t. I went to at least 15 interviews while I was studying and after I graduated from university and not a single one of them asked me about my grades. Same thing happened to my friends. No one is gonna hire you as a manager right after university even if you're an A+ student. Interpersonal skills and work experience have a lot more value.

Think about this situation:

Guy works a full-time or part-time job during university in a small accounting firm. He's working his ass off and his grades suffer because of it. Chances are that when he graduates he's gonna leverage that work experience to get a well paid job at one of the biggest accounting firms.

Girl also works full-time or part-time but as a clerk in a store somewhere hired solely because she looks pretty. She doesn't do much all day long, she studies harder, gets better grades. At the end of university her work experience is worth nothing, her grades won't make up for it.

So what I'm trying to say is that if women get better grades in school it doesn't mean that they'll make good employees or good leaders. Then they start crying to the government to implement all sorts of stupid laws that force companies to hire more women just because they have a vagina.

I had this teacher in university who worked as an underwriter, 10-12 hour workday, lots of face-to-face with entrepreneurs and business people. One girl asked if there are any women in the office. He said that they hired women at one point but they all quit shortly after because they couldn't cope with the work schedule. If you wanna do a man's job then you better act like one. There's no slacking just because you have your period. If you wanna have babies and act like a woman then you can't be a man at the same time. I bet there were other problems also (like sexual harassment & other BS women come up with just to be noticed in the office).

[abcdavid01]

Great post Andrew.

However, I still believe the vast majority of management-level people in private company are recruited with some degree of merit in mind, and that obviously applies to women.

Just out of interest, what particular talents do you imagine women in senior management positions to have? Mostly they lack technical skills and like essentially all Western women they are complete assholes. What mysterious skill set are you referring to that justifies their high salaries? What specific things can they do better than the average man in the street?

That being my point. A woman who's smart, did her maths and physics or engineering, did a good MBA and a few years of corporate career won't be either better or worse than a man with the same curriculum. There's nothing that proves a woman is necessarily better. In fact, judging from the student population at the better undergrad and postgraduate courses, women fare on average better than men. Now, you would say all it's because of positive action or quotas. I call that BS. Women have the same intellectual abilities than men. They can be as bad as them, or as good as them. Probably a little bit moodier than men though

Publicduende, I've posted many articles detailing the decline of academic performance of men over the years; women are now racing ahead of men in both K-12 and college/university grade levels. This is a disturbing trend that I see for men in the future...

I mentioned it to actually argue the opposite, that even despite the apparent gap in achievement levels, I wouldn't feel like venturing into a sweeping generalisation such as "women are smarter than men", or vice-versa. I have read some articles on the topic, too. They were pointing at just about anything, from the levels of fluoride in water that reduces testosterone levels, to the "girl power" mantra, to families being keener than even to encourage women to pursue independence.

Too many opinions on the table, many seemingly contradicting one another. I would simply suspend judgment until I see, perhaps 10or 20 years down the line, what these young women are doing with their degrees and aspirations. If this equality, when not disproportion, won't reflect in a comparable number of women in culturally or socially high spots, then I would conclude that either women are better at learning than applying knowledge, or the glass ceiling is still holding strong. In the latter case, I wouldn't see much of a point with the usual "women as the Great Manipulators" stereotype.

Why another 10 or 20 years? Feminism started forty years ago and was simmering beneath the surface even longer. Why do you think there still needs to be more time to examine the evidence? There've already been generations X and Y since then. This isn't a challenge; I'm legitimately curious.

[Teal Lantern]

Do women make good Leaders, Presidents or Prime Ministers?

How have they done throughout history in leadership positions?

Here's one making history, right now.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/fina ... fault.html

[publicduende]

Great post Andrew.

Just out of interest, what particular talents do you imagine women in senior management positions to have? Mostly they lack technical skills and like essentially all Western women they are complete assholes. What mysterious skill set are you referring to that justifies their high salaries? What specific things can they do better than the average man in the street?

That being my point. A woman who's smart, did her maths and physics or engineering, did a good MBA and a few years of corporate career won't be either better or worse than a man with the same curriculum. There's nothing that proves a woman is necessarily better. In fact, judging from the student population at the better undergrad and postgraduate courses, women fare on average better than men. Now, you would say all it's because of positive action or quotas. I call that BS. Women have the same intellectual abilities than men. They can be as bad as them, or as good as them. Probably a little bit moodier than men though

Publicduende, I've posted many articles detailing the decline of academic performance of men over the years; women are now racing ahead of men in both K-12 and college/university grade levels. This is a disturbing trend that I see for men in the future...

I mentioned it to actually argue the opposite, that even despite the apparent gap in achievement levels, I wouldn't feel like venturing into a sweeping generalisation such as "women are smarter than men", or vice-versa. I have read some articles on the topic, too. They were pointing at just about anything, from the levels of fluoride in water that reduces testosterone levels, to the "girl power" mantra, to families being keener than even to encourage women to pursue independence.

Too many opinions on the table, many seemingly contradicting one another. I would simply suspend judgment until I see, perhaps 10or 20 years down the line, what these young women are doing with their degrees and aspirations. If this equality, when not disproportion, won't reflect in a comparable number of women in culturally or socially high spots, then I would conclude that either women are better at learning than applying knowledge, or the glass ceiling is still holding strong. In the latter case, I wouldn't see much of a point with the usual "women as the Great Manipulators" stereotype.

Why another 10 or 20 years? Feminism started forty years ago and was simmering beneath the surface even longer. Why do you think there still needs to be more time to examine the evidence? There've already been generations X and Y since then. This isn't a challenge; I'm legitimately curious.

Well, women joining postgraduate degrees, MBAs and PhDs is still a relatively recent phenomenon. I was only saying that the impact on society will be probably felt the most when these women reach senior positions in their chosen fields. It might take less than 20 years, perhaps 10. I don't consider women who want to have a career as "feminist", simply smart and willing to draw fulfilment from intellectual endeavours, a profession, etc.

[Cornfed]

In fact, judging from the student population at the better undergrad and postgraduate courses, women fare on average better than men.

It is very simple. Women are getting high marks because the system is rigged to give them high marks. Given that for years there have been people whose job is explicitly to rig the system to give women high marks, we can be as sure that such rigging has occurred as we can of the existence of chairs and tables. It would be perfectly possible to rig the system to allow chimps to outscore humans if that were desired.

Well, women joining postgraduate degrees, MBAs and PhDs is still a relatively recent phenomenon. I was only saying that the impact on society will be probably felt the most when these women reach senior positions in their chosen fields.

Women have been handed those degrees for generations and the world has nothing to show for it. Just as you can't name any women who have written original software, you also can't name any women who have come up with any creative scientific or engineering innovations, because women are grown children who are incapable of inductive human thought. It is just like wealthy women have dabbled in arts, literature and music for thousands of years and yet everything they have produced is crap. You might see a pattern there if you look hard enough.

Back to my question. What specific skills would you take the average female senior manager to have? Many of them don't even pretend to be technically competent in anything, so what exactly justifies them being paid a fortune while most other people aren’t? In what way are they better than those other people? What specifically are they able to do better?

[abcdavid01]

Marie Curie? She did have her husband though.

[terminator]

No they don't.

[Winston]

What about these famous women in history? Were any of them great leaders?

- Queen Cleopatra, last Pharaoh of Egypt
- Queen Elizabeth of England in the 1500's
- Queen Isabella of Spain in the 1400's
- Joan of Arc, French revolutionary
- Harriet Tubman, freer of slaves

Has there ever been a great queen? Or did they sit there and get worshipped while they appointed men to do all the administrative work?

Also, how come there has never been a great female commander who has won great military battles? Why do women suck so bad when it comes to battle tactics and conquest? There's never been a woman who has pulled off brilliant military victories such as Napoleon did at the Battle of Austerlitz, or Alexander the Great did at the Battle of Gautemala.

Women are only good at manipulating powerful men. For example, Cleopatra seduced and manipuated Julius Caesar to get his help in restoring her to the Egyptian throne. She did what women are good at, seducing men. She never won any military battles. In fact, she screwed up her second lover, Marc Anthony, by advising him to fight a naval battle with Caesar Augustus at the Battle of Actium, rather than by land as his men advised. Thus they lost that major battle and eventually committed suicide.

If Marc Anthony had listened to his men, they might have won that battle. His men argued that since they had a stronger and more experienced army, they should fight by land. So much for taking military advice from a woman.

I guess Joan of Arc did win a few battles, but they were short lived and she was captured and burned at the stake. She's the only one I can think of that won any battles.

Why do feminists say that women can do anything men can do, when there has never been a great female general?

Women also have lower IQ's than men do on average. The best male chess player in the world can easily beat the best female player. Hands down.

How come all the best female chess players have been from Russia or Eastern Europe? How come there's never been a great AW chess player? lol

Why do feminists always lie and deny reality?