Why can't Asians hold deeper intellectual conversations? Why are they never interested in higher truth or philosophy?

[Winston]

This might sound a bit racist and pointless, but it's true.

99 percent of Asians can't hold deep meaningful conversations. Even educated ones can only talk about pop culture stuff, what they hear in the mainstream media, and general cosmopolitan subjects. They can't think for themselves or outside the box. No free thought at all.

So even among educated Asians, this is true. They can't really think for themselves and have no independent thoughts. They only parrot politically correct statements and understand only simple practical things (as Mr S put it).

None of my 53 cousins can hold intelligent conversations. All they know is work and practical things. No independent thoughts or knowledge of any philosophy or deeper subjects. None of them have any blogs or wrote any articles or books. No rich inner life. (well ok, maybe one is an exception)

If you meet my cousin Dennis, the one that just got married and is an MD, you will find that he can only recite things he learned in medical school. He has no independent thoughts of his own.

Why is this? Why am I so different from the rest?

It's not like I am even that intelligent. My IQ is 120, just a little over average. And I didn't get good grades in school, at least not consistently, for I wasn't good at memorizing tedious data for tests as my mind would wander and I couldn't stop it.

The difference is, I think for myself. I recognize and resist brainwashing and propaganda and mind control. I love knowledge and wisdom. I am curious and ask a lot of questions, which lead to answers and thus more knowledge and understanding. I tell the truth as it is, not how I am programmed to see things.

I know these are fruitless questions. But I still wonder, WHY?!

[Winston]

To Momopi:

Before you play devil's advocate again and give another wisecrack response to this post, let me ask you:

1. Do you know ANY Asians among your friends that think outside the box? If so, can I see their sites? What about among YOUR cousins? Can I see their blogs and articles, if I am wrong about the above?

2. Do you know any Asians in your friends or family that write articles critical of Asian cultures? If so, can I see them? I'm talking about high quality intelligent content that make sense.

3. How many Asians do you know who know that the Gulf of Tonkin Incident in 1964 was staged and a fraud? Or that the Federal Reserve is a private bank above the law and not controlled by the government or system of checks and balances?

I want to see proof, not just anecdotal accounts.

Finally, though you are practical and materialistic like most Asians, you have a lot of knowledge in different subjects, like an encyclopedia. That is not usual for an Asian at all. So WHY are you different from the rest?

[Winston]

Momopi,
Here's an example of what I'm talking about.

Janet Hsieh of the Travel Channel got straight A's in school, got accepted into medical school (an Asian person's dream), and was a biology whiz. But became host of Travel Channels' Taiwan Fun instead. Now, society says she is smart and beautiful. Maybe.

But look at the book she wrote and her blog. NOTHING intellectual at all. Just simple normal lighthearted stuff. NOTHING outside the box, deep, intellectual or soulful.

Thus, she doesn't impress me.

She may be academically smart. But she can't write like Ayn Rand, Madame Blavatsky, Thomas Paine, Mark Twain, Robert Ingersoll, Eric Fromm, etc. No way.

She is only good at memorizing stuff that the system gives you. But the system can never teach you to think like the authors above.

Also, look at your own best friend, Ron.

A cool guy you say. Very likable, functional, happy, normal with assets and a nice wife.

But can he write like the authors above? Can he think outside the box or say deep intellectual things? If so, where's the proof? Let me see his blog.

See my point? Regardless of your probable smart alleck remarks, the facts are the facts.

If I'm wrong, then you will show me some hard proof. If you can't, then the facts support what I say. Simple as that. No smart alleck remarks can dent that.

[wuxi]

In most asian countries the students are more emotionally immature compared to students from other countries because they spend more time studying and less time socializing. They don't start dating until after there finished college and this puts them several years behind most western people in terms of social skills. This is very noticeable if you've ever taught ESL to asian students, trying to get them to talk is next to impossible sometimes.

[momopi]

Winston, count your question marks. You asked 10-11 questions across 2 posts. People in RL have patience for maybe 1-2 questions, any more and it's STFU. I'm sure Ron would be happy to blog about his impression of Monet's Women with a Parasol, if you'd offer to come over and babysit his 2 kids for a month.

Let me cut through the fat and go directly to what you're looking for. The author of this thread (roundcorners) is a 1.5 gen Taiwanese neighbor (Irvine city) married to an American (white) women. See if it's "intellectual" enough for you:
http://www.talkirvine.com/index.php?topic=565.0 (you might want to read the whole thread)

My reply to his post:
http://www.talkirvine.com/index.php?top ... 11#msg8411

If you're looking for social & cultural critiques written by Asians, the largest collections are found in Asian languages only. For TW you can try 批踢踢:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PTT_Bulletin_Board_System

For China you can check with Tieba, Mop, Tianya, Sina, Sohu/163, Xilu, etc. If you intend to live in TW or China, you should really learn Chinese. I think in the future, English the Internet will be in the minority:
http://www.internetworldstats.com/stats7.htm

For published works, I could refer you to a couple that you can discuss with your parents. Ask your father about 柏楊 (Bo Yang). I think all of his books are published in Chinese except one in English:

You can also ask your mother or other female relatives about the author 三毛 (San Mao). I think you'd enjoy reading her books, if you could read them. Check her wiki page and see if you can "relate" to her:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sanmao_(author)


As an opinion, I think you just want to complain. You want to complain about the Federal Reserve being an independent government agency (like USPS, NASA, FCC, SEC, etc). If it was the 3rd arm of Congress, I think you'd still bitch about the extra arm. Dude, when I read your writing "some guys don't have the patience and want something guaranteed", I think you're talking about yourself. You had the guts to get up and go to Russia with no guarantees, where's that motivation now? You think you're a free-thinker? Well, the free-spirited Taiwanese people I know who are "cloud types" like Yang Ya-Ching go with the wind, and would never degrade herself to rot in a never-ending bitch fest on the Internet.

Finally, though you are practical and materialistic like most Asians, you have a lot of knowledge in different subjects, like an encyclopedia. That is not usual for an Asian at all. So WHY are you different from the rest?

You can go down the street from where I live and find buildings with hundreds analysts, who are well versed in many subjects. Comes with the job, there's nothing special or unique about it. Compared to some of the senior guys I've meet, I'm just a greenhorn. Companies like Gartner specializes in hiring analysts who knows a lot of crap:
http://www.gartner.com

I'll give another example. The Cantonese gentlemen who wrote this post was a very influential consultant on the development of OC communities:
http://www.ocreader.com/?p=1715

His specialty? Asian culture and architecture. Me? I'm off to Santa Barbara to look at grapes. ;p

[DaRick]

Strangely enough Winston, I find that the Chinese girls that I speak to are more adept than Anglo girls at starting and carrying conversations. Anglo girls, from experience, can't do either. Anglo guys can, but their ability to sort of depends on the person (as you'd expect).

I'd say that Chinese guys are no more shallow in their conversational topics than Anglo guys. Actually, Anglo guys probably talk about inane stuff more (like getting drunk and partying, etc). Chinese girls obviously aren't as intellectually shallow as Anglo girls, either - if you can't start or carry a conversation, you either have dismal social skills (unlikely, in their case) or are so shallow that you have nothing of worth to really talk about to further the conversation.

[Winston]

Winston, count your question marks. You asked 10-11 questions across 2 posts. People in RL have patience for maybe 1-2 questions, any more and it's STFU. I'm sure Ron would be happy to blog about his impression of Monet's Women with a Parasol, if you'd offer to come over and babysit his 2 kids for a month.

Let me cut through the fat and go directly to what you're looking for. The author of this thread (roundcorners) is a 1.5 gen Taiwanese neighbor (Irvine city) married to an American (white) women. See if it's "intellectual" enough for you:
http://www.talkirvine.com/index.php?topic=565.0 (you might want to read the whole thread)

My reply to his post:
http://www.talkirvine.com/index.php?top ... 11#msg8411

If you're looking for social & cultural critiques written by Asians, the largest collections are found in Asian languages only. For TW you can try 批踢踢:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PTT_Bulletin_Board_System

For China you can check with Tieba, Mop, Tianya, Sina, Sohu/163, Xilu, etc. If you intend to live in TW or China, you should really learn Chinese. I think in the future, English the Internet will be in the minority:
http://www.internetworldstats.com/stats7.htm

For published works, I could refer you to a couple that you can discuss with your parents. Ask your father about 柏楊 (Bo Yang). I think all of his books are published in Chinese except one in English:

You can also ask your mother or other female relatives about the author 三毛 (San Mao). I think you'd enjoy reading her books, if you could read them. Check her wiki page and see if you can "relate" to her:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sanmao_(author)


As an opinion, I think you just want to complain. You want to complain about the Federal Reserve being an independent government agency (like USPS, NASA, FCC, SEC, etc). If it was the 3rd arm of Congress, I think you'd still bitch about the extra arm. Dude, when I read your writing "some guys don't have the patience and want something guaranteed", I think you're talking about yourself. You had the guts to get up and go to Russia with no guarantees, where's that motivation now? You think you're a free-thinker? Well, the free-spirited Taiwanese people I know who are "cloud types" like Yang Ya-Ching go with the wind, and would never degrade herself to rot in a never-ending bitch fest on the Internet.

Finally, though you are practical and materialistic like most Asians, you have a lot of knowledge in different subjects, like an encyclopedia. That is not usual for an Asian at all. So WHY are you different from the rest?

You can go down the street from where I live and find buildings with hundreds analysts, who are well versed in many subjects. Comes with the job, there's nothing special or unique about it. Compared to some of the senior guys I've meet, I'm just a greenhorn. Companies like Gartner specializes in hiring analysts who knows a lot of crap:
http://www.gartner.com

I'll give another example. The Cantonese gentlemen who wrote this post was a very influential consultant on the development of OC communities:
http://www.ocreader.com/?p=1715

His specialty? Asian culture and architecture. Me? I'm off to Santa Barbara to look at grapes. ;p

Dude, quit with the ad hominem attacks.

Ok I looked at the first thread you gave me from Irvine. Is that what you consider intellectual?

My God you must have low standards!

The guy who wrote that, roundcorners, can think a little yes. And is ahead of my cousins.

But that's not the level I'm talking about!

I'm talking about having the same great ideas and profound insights and truth as great thinkers like Eric Fromm, Mark Twain, Robert Ingersoll, Thomas Paine, Sigmund Freud even, etc. Those are TRUE freethinkers.

WHERE ARE THE ASIAN AMERICANS YOU KNOW WHO THINK ON THE SAME WAVELENGTH AS THOSE AUTHORS ABOVE?! WHERE?!

They don't exist do they? If so, why can't you admit it?

Face it. You have zero admiration or appreciation for people who think outside the box. It's of no value to you. That's why you never compliment it.

You know you can't meet my challenge, so you diss my motivations. That is a psychological tactic, not an honest one.

The book you mentioned, Ugly Chinaman, is about ECONOMICS, not philosophy or psychology or freethinking.

And even if The Ugly Chinaman book did fit the bill, you don't know that author. He's not in your social circle. I challenge you to find even ONE freethinker in your Asian social circle. Just one. And prove it with his blog. So far you've come up with none.

Show me JUST ONE Asian American who writes in English, who thinks outside the box, can critique the system, thinks independently of the system, etc.

If you look at my writings for example, I use the same arguments and speak the same truths as Eric Fromm does, as Mark Twain argued, as George Bernard Shaw thought, etc.

http://www.debunkingskeptics.com/Articles.htm

And see the cluster of essays in the right side bar on my home page here.

Ron can't do that. Get real! He doesn't think like that. So stop BSing and be honest. Just admit it. NO ASIAN in your social circle knows that the Gulf of Tonkin Incident was a fraud that started a war which killed 58,000 Americans and a million Vietnamese. Admit it. It's true, so why are you ashamed of that? Why do you hate admitting that I'm right? This isn't a video game. It's reality and truth.

Just one pass/fail question:

Name ONE Asian American who can debunk every major argument of Christian fundamentalism like I have here.

http://www.debunkingskeptics.com/Debunk ... ntents.htm

Name just one. And I'll shut up and admit I'm wrong. Otherwise, by your silence you prove me right.

I won't ask you too many questions. Just that one. Name ONE. If you can't, then my point stands.

Why are you so stubborn and never admit that you're wrong or that I am right? Why? I admit when I'm wrong, so why can't you?

The fact is, over 99 percent of Asians can't think outside the box. We all know that. Even Ladislav and Mr. S report the same observation. So why do you take personal offense at such a statement, when it's obvious?

[Winston]

Strangely enough Winston, I find that the Chinese girls that I speak to are more adept than Anglo girls at starting and carrying conversations. Anglo girls, from experience, can't do either. Anglo guys can, but their ability to sort of depends on the person (as you'd expect).

I'd say that Chinese guys are no more shallow in their conversational topics than Anglo guys. Actually, Anglo guys probably talk about inane stuff more (like getting drunk and partying, etc). Chinese girls obviously aren't as intellectually shallow as Anglo girls, either - if you can't start or carry a conversation, you either have dismal social skills (unlikely, in their case) or are so shallow that you have nothing of worth to really talk about to further the conversation.

I think I know the type you're talking about. I've met those before too. They are usually from China.

Yeah they are down to earth. But still, they are limited to talking about practical things. They are judgmental and materialistic and not philosophical at all. It's always practical, practical, practical with them. That's all. No imagination. Gets boring after a while.

[Winston]

Momopi,
Why do you hate admitting that I am VERY unique, esp for an Asian?

That guy Peter I met in Estonia who had been to 100 countries, whom I quoted, said that I was the most "atypical Asian male" he had ever met. He's been to a lot more countries than you, and said his honest opinion.

So why do you deny that there's anything unique about me?

Am I fairly typical to you? lol

Peter also said that Asian women tend to have good domestic skills and make good wives, but are not good for philosophical conversations. That is generally true. Most expats agree. How come it's taboo for you to admit that?

Every expat in the Philippines says that it is hard to find any intelligent conversation there. It's a unanimous opinion.

Btw, see these quotes below. These are the kind of freethinking intellectual quotes I'm talking about. I'll bet money that you don't know even ONE Asian in YOUR social circle that uses such statements in their writings and blogs. (I'm referring to Asians that you know personally)

Jiddu Krishnamurti stated,

"It is no measure of health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society".

Frederich Nietzsche noted this profound truth:

"Insanity in individuals is something rare - but in groups, parties, nations and epochs, it is the rule." (Friedrich Nietzsche)

Psychoanalyst Eric Fromm describes it this way:

"The sick individual finds himself at home with all other similarly sick individuals. The whole culture is geared to this kind of pathology. The result is that the average individual does not experience the separateness and isolation the fully schizophrenic person feels. He feels at ease among those who suffer from the same deformation; in fact, it is the fully sane person who feels isolated in the insane society — and he may suffer so much from the incapacity to communicate that it is he who may become psychotic." (Eric Fromm, The Anatomy of Human Destructiveness)

How true, yet taboo. Michael Tsarion, a brilliant alternative researcher on the Occult and Mass Media Mind Control, quoting R.D. Lang in his "Age of Manipulation" lecture, sums it up this way:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GjquqioRmZE
"Insanity is a perfectly natural adjustment to a totally unnatural and negative environment." (R.D. Lang)

Marcus Aurelius:

"The object in life is not to be on the side of the majority, but to escape finding oneself in the ranks of the insane."

Now you have the yardstick that I'm measuring "intellectual/freethinking" by.

I'll bet that you don't know any Asian at all who says and thinks the kind of things in those quotes above, except me.

Am I right?

[Contrarian Expatriate]

That has not been my experience. I found that Asian males are more likely to be oriented towards intelligent conversation. There are exceptions however. I find that Asian women tend to be more influenced by mass media and pop culture. They turn into the proverbial banana, yellow on the outside, but white on the inside.

Asian American men feel the inequities of manhood, and unless they have been swept up by subcultures like skater, surfer, or hip hop, they tend to be more cerebral.

I cannot speak about Asian men in other countries however.

[Adama]

That has not been my experience. I found that Asian males are more likely to be oriented towards intelligent conversation. There are exceptions however. I find that Asian women tend to be more influenced by mass media and pop culture. They turn into the proverbial banana, yellow on the outside, but white on the inside.

Asian American men feel the inequities of manhood, and unless they have been swept up by subcultures like skater, surfer, or hip hop, they tend to be more cerebral.

I cannot speak about Asian men in other countries however.

Are you talking about Americanization of the Asian born female?

[DaRick]

Strangely enough Winston, I find that the Chinese girls that I speak to are more adept than Anglo girls at starting and carrying conversations. Anglo girls, from experience, can't do either. Anglo guys can, but their ability to sort of depends on the person (as you'd expect).

I'd say that Chinese guys are no more shallow in their conversational topics than Anglo guys. Actually, Anglo guys probably talk about inane stuff more (like getting drunk and partying, etc). Chinese girls obviously aren't as intellectually shallow as Anglo girls, either - if you can't start or carry a conversation, you either have dismal social skills (unlikely, in their case) or are so shallow that you have nothing of worth to really talk about to further the conversation.

I think I know the type you're talking about. I've met those before too. They are usually from China.

Yeah they are down to earth. But still, they are limited to talking about practical things. They are judgmental and materialistic and not philosophical at all. It's always practical, practical, practical with them. That's all. No imagination. Gets boring after a while.

To be honest, I don't know whether I agree with you or not, for at uni, it is all too easy to meet people and never see them again.

I did have one close Chinese friend, but he was much more hedonistic than your average Chinese guy (and also more brash) - possibly because of the culture around him and his dysfunctional home life. It is true that he was fairly materialistic, judgemental, etc. - but he had an odd mentality, for both an Anglo and a Chinese - almost like a hybrid between them.

[globetrotter]

This might sound a bit racist and pointless, but it's true.

99 percent of Asians can't hold intelligent conversations. Even educated ones can only talk about pop culture stuff, what they hear in the mainstream media, and general cosmopolitan subjects. They can't think for themselves or outside the box. No free thought at all.!

...and you wonder why you can be surrounded by hundred's of Asians and no one strikes up a conversation with you?

[Adama]

I think it is better to keep conversation very light. Some people take their politics, religion, etc way too personally and will attempt to even physically assault you if you disagree. Maybe Asians have a deeper understanding of this and thus avoid serious topics like these.

It would be hard to believe that Asian men are entirely as shallow as WWu paints them.

[momopi]

The fact is, over 99 percent of Asians can't think outside the box. We all know that. Even Ladislav and Mr. S report the same observation.
So why do you take personal offense at such a statement, when it's obvious?

Gee, could it be that when Ladislav and Mr. S comment on something, they don't ask for an Asian author who is "critical to Asian cultures", then append the following conditions:

1. The author must be "friends and family", then you'll probably ask "must live within radius of x miles"
2. The written material must be "blogs by friends and family", like as if my cousins have nothing else better to do
3. The written material must contain philosophy, psychology, "freethinking", and anything else you add just to win an argument
4. The written material must be on the "same wavelength" as Mark Twain, Sigmund Freud, and anyone else you can add to win the argument
5. It must be "out of the box" by your ever changing standards
6. It must debunk every major argument of Christian fundamentalism, so if someone does produce a critique, you can say "it doesn't address argument #62"!
7. When my neighbor blogs in tranche de vie, you expect their writing to be on par with Mark Twain,
8. Worse of all, you expect Asian author to write in English, as if they're writing for your benefit, from your own cultural context.


But since you asked for a critique, I'll cite one from 曠野:

在台灣的社會裡，長久以來，基督教被形容為「死無人哭」、「不拿香就是不孝」，好像信耶穌的人都是無血無淚，無情無義，親人死了，
眼淚都不掉一滴﹖（參考曠野雜誌2002年11月 120期﹕〈基督教，死無人哭〉）家族中第一個信耶穌的人，或是第一代的基督徒，
通常也承受較大的家族壓力，光是「背叛祖先」這條罪名，就洗刷不清了，哪裡有餘力去批評家人的宗教信仰﹖

I'll translate a few terms used on christianity:

信基督教，死無人哭: Ask your father to read this in Taiwanese, I think it rhymes -- hope you installed Chinese fonts.
It means that if you become christian, after you die nobody will perform ancestral rites and sob about their deceased parents.

不拿香就是不孝: "No holding incense is failing filial piety".
By becoming christian, the son will no longer respect his elders in proper relationship (according to Confucian virtue of filial piety).

背叛祖先: Traitor to one's ancestors.

See, when Chinese/Taiwanese writers criticize christianity, they do it from their own Han-Chinese cultural context, because they're not banana like you! From their polytheist perspective, christians are rather poor with only 1 god, and good heavens, who cares about some dude name moses who was too stupid to bring a GPS or ask for directions, or jacob who didn't understand caveat emptor after slaving 7 years for his father in law. Poor jacob should've shopped in an Asian street market and learned how to bargain.



My cousins don't blog lengthy tirades. They're busy with their bf/gf and having fun. I do however have 1 younger cousin in high school who doesn't have a GF, he's working on an amateur fantasy novel in Japanese as part of his language learning. He could use some extra spending money, so if you want him to blog about something, I'm sure he'd be happy to, for a small fee of $100 per page, plus $100 for each additional pages to cover your pending list of added conditions. "What, your critique on Taiwanese old ladies doesn't include psychology!" "OK I will add a psychology section on chicken feet at dim sum".

The book you mentioned, Ugly Chinaman, is about ECONOMICS, not philosophy or psychology or freethinking.

If baffles me that you think a book titled "...the crisis of Chinese culture" is about economics, and would somehow cater to every subject to suit your needs, or the author himself, being recently deceased (dead like the other authors you cited), would somehow be in my extended social circle of the living. I'll post a short citation from the book:


"When Pei Zhuzhang became aware of the problems which exist within Chinese culture, he wondered whether there might be some basic defect in the moral fibre of the Chinese people. Before I made my first trip abroad, Sun Guanhan said to me, "When you come back, there's one thing I absolutely forbid you to say: 'Chinese people are the same everywhere!' " I readily gave him my promise. But when I returned and he asked me about my trip, I said, "You told me not to say it, but. …Chinese people are the same everywhere!" He hoped that Chinese people would be able to change and grow over the course of time and couldn't imagine this not happening. Are there intrinsic flaws in the basic nature of the Chinese people? When God created us, did he actually intend to make us so ugly? My answer is that the question is not one of moral fibre. This is not meant as self-consolation; the Chinese are indeed one of the most intelligent nationalities in the world. In American universities, Chinese students always rank in the top of their classes, and we have produced many noted scientists as well: Sun Guanhan, one of the fathers of nuclear physics, as well as Nobel Prize winners Yang Zhenning and Li Zhengdao. There are no intrinsic flaws in the moral fibre of the Chinese people, and there is no doubt in my mind that we are capable of making China a healthy and happy place to live in. I also have good reason to believe that China will someday become a great country . But we mustn't spend all of our time and effort making China a major military power. What is more important is to bring happiness into the people's lives. Only after this is achieved can power be sought. I believe that the Chinese people possess noble qualities. But why is it that during the last several centuries, we have so rarely succeeded in freeing ourselves from suffering?"


The author, Bo Yang, was the founding president of Taiwan chapter of Amnesty International. He has authoried many books, of which only one has been published in English. If you want to read books written by Asian authors critical of Asian people, culture, religion, etc., learn to read Chinese. If you think it's difficult, Bo Yang's book is avail in Comic Book format that is much easier to read by beginners:
http://www.taipeitimes.com/News/taiwan/ ... 2003408408

If you're unwilling to put in the effort, then there's no point to continue any discussion on this subject. You're in TW and you can't even connect with the greater online community there. The largest online forum in Taiwan is a telnet bbs, not on the web (WWW), not in English, and not catered specifically to YOUR needs:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PTT_Bulletin_Board_System

PTT Bulletin Board System (PTT, 批踢踢實業坊, telnet://ptt.cc) is a terminal-based bulletin board system based in Taiwan. It was founded by students from the Department of Information Engineering of National Taiwan University, and is currently administrated by the Electronic BBS Research Society.

PTT is arguably the largest BBS in the world with more than 1.5 million registered users. During peak hours, there are over 150,000 users online. It has over 200,000 boards with a multitude of topics, and more than 40,000 articles and 1 million comments are posted every day.


Man all this effort just because you want to feel special. What a waste of my time. You need to get out more. Yesterday was Qi Shi (七夕) aka Chinese valentine's. You could've went to the temples to check out all the single women praying to meet their future lovers/husbands. I celebrated by going to a winery tour with 2 kawaii Chinese pharmacy students in Santa Ynes. ;p