Are those who push the proletariat work ethic degenerates?

[Seeker]

No of course none of the current systems are perfect, though some capitalist systems seem to work better than others in providing prosperity for all. We don't make the system though, we just have to do the best we can in it. If you can't change the system to a better one, and nobody has ever devised a better one yet, I would focus your thoughts on what YOU want and how you can get it. Why should others produce for you (I don't mean 'you' personally) if you provide nothing in return? Lastly, enteprenuers take a lot of risk by starting a company, and they create employment and opportunities for others while providing a service or a product that others want. I'm going through that process right now and it's much harder than it might seem on the outside. It seems that you're pushing for some kind of socialism or common ownership, how did that play out over the last century?

[Pixel--Dude]

No of course none of the current systems are perfect, though some capitalist systems seem to work better than others in providing prosperity for all. We don't make the system though, we just have to do the best we can in it. If you can't change the system to a better one, and nobody has ever devised a better one yet, I would focus your thoughts on what YOU want and how you can get it. Why should others produce for you (I don't mean 'you' personally) if you provide nothing in return? Lastly, enteprenuers take a lot of risk by starting a company, and they create employment and opportunities for others while providing a service or a product that others want. I'm going through that process right now and it's much harder than it might seem on the outside. It seems that you're pushing for some kind of socialism or common ownership, how did that play out over the last century?

What I am pushing for is an end to the kleptocracy and the maximisation of personal freedom. At an age where most jobs can be automated by robots instead of humans doesn't it make sense to just eliminate all these pointless jobs? This would only make sense if we transcend capitalism and implement a new system which is conducive to human happiness. Get rid of fiat currency, along with a lot of useless goods and services we don't even need and give each town the resources it needs to become self sufficient.

Pushing socialism? You think this is a fair system where everyone has equal opportunity to prosper? Dude, the game is totally rigged. All we have at the moment is a system which is just socialism for the super rich.

[Seeker]

If most jobs could really be automated don't you think companies would do it? Who wants to deal those pesky workers who might not even show up on time when you could just have a machine do it instead. We don't even have a decent android house servant yet! Speaking as a business man, (it feels strange to call myself that), I would rather automate some jobs than have to hire people. The problem is machines aren't nearly capable enough to do most jobs to an acceptable level that would justify the cost. I wouldn't bother hiring if I didn't have to. Technology isn't advanced enough for the techno-utopia you are pushing for.

[MrMan]

Some work cultists like to make the argument that relentless industry is necessary for the development and upkeep of advanced technological civilization but they fail to understand that the question is a matter of degrees. Work cultists don't simply want people to be productive; they want work to be the center of everybody's lives, they want everybody to be subjected to long hours and strict work discipline, they want people to live to work!

Who are 'they?' What expert promotes this idea? Is there a book that promotes it?

The idea that management should control production processes is an old one, and it goes back at least to Frederick Taylor, but the objective is not focused on filling the lives of workers with drudgery. It's focused on making the production process efficient. There are HR experts who focus on topics such as workplace motivation, engagement and 'work-life balance.' No doubt they have a different philosophy about work than you do, but even if they start with different assumption about the role of worn in the individual's life, the focus is not to oppress people by making work the center of their lives.

I do see diligence as a noble characteristic and laziness as a sinful characteristic. That doesn't mean that I think ones employer has to be the focus of all their work effort or that they have to hate their work for it to be real work. One can get a job with decent hours and use other times for work he enjoys or that breaks up his life with different kinds of activities.

But the modern workweek is wholly unnatural. It is only driving droves of people to stress, depression, mental illness and despair.

No one say around counting statistics on how many people are stressed, depressed, or mentally ill until the development of modern work culture with all its microspecializations. Psychologists measure these things. Clinical psychologists have disproportionately high suicide rates, I hear.

Human beings are simply not supposed to live like that! Fortunately in our high-tech 21st century human beings have no reason to work as much as they do. The workweek could and in my opinion should be reduced through the implementation of automation and labor-saving technologies.

Without some kind of communist revolution or major shift toward socialism, how is this going to work? Who is going to make the robots that make the hamburgers at McDonald's and that clean the motel rooms? The large corporations would do it. And who would make the money from selling these services? The owners of the robots or the robotic technology. These proletariate workers you want to free are unlikely to own the technologies. The money from the would go to the companies you despise, not the workers you want to work fewer hours.

A NPC like you, @MrMan, might be satisfied with endless drudgery, your Jewish hoax slave religion and barbaric female genital mutilation ( )

I never heard of female genital mutilation being part of Judaism. NPC? I think you've been playing too many video games. I have a job that ranks very high on low stress jobs, best jobs for creative people, etc. I have to be at a certain place at a certain time maybe 8 to 10 hours a week for 9 months out of the year, and the pay is good.

I've worked in the corporate world where you get to work at 7 something and it is pretty typical for colleagues not to leave their desks until about 7

but for those of us who actually have souls and inner spirituality modern society's insane work culture is nothing but a source of depression and frustration and many of us want nothing more than to get out of the rat race.

Do you think lazy people are more likely to be spiritual and have souls than diligent people?

The way I think of getting out of 'the rate race' typically involves disciple and hard work. Either you work hard at something that benefits others that doesn't give you the best house and car, but fulfills a greater purpose, or you can stop working for a pre-packaged job from a company and build your own businesses.

[Lucas88]

Some work cultists like to make the argument that relentless industry is necessary for the development and upkeep of advanced technological civilization but they fail to understand that the question is a matter of degrees. Work cultists don't simply want people to be productive; they want work to be the center of everybody's lives, they want everybody to be subjected to long hours and strict work discipline, they want people to live to work!

Who are 'they?' What expert promotes this idea? Is there a book that promotes it?

The "work cultists" who I refer to are a subset of the population who praise the workaholic lifestyle and shame others who don't have the same enthusiasm about work. They are not experts but simply regular folks who have imbibed the old Protestant Work Ethic a bit too much and like to bang on about how hardworking they are and how everybody else is lazy. The OP and I know people like this in real life. We have contempt for those people and believe that their workaholism and desire to equate it with moral superiority are due to them being empty on the inside and having no other interests or virtues in life. You do realize that the OP posted this as a rant, don't you?

As for experts, I doubt that many subscribe to the idea of relentless industry being necessary for the advancement or upkeep of technological civilization anymore. From what I've seen there seems to be more talk about advanced robotics and automation making more and more forms of human labor redundant and concerns about the future of employment.

I do see diligence as a noble characteristic and laziness as a sinful characteristic. That doesn't mean that I think ones employer has to be the focus of all their work effort or that they have to hate their work for it to be real work. One can get a job with decent hours and use other times for work he enjoys or that breaks up his life with different kinds of activities.

You see work as noble because you (presumably) subscribe to the Protestant Work Ethic. I myself on the other hand subscribe to the classical view which holds that common drudgery is nothing more than a necessary evil which should be reduced to the absolute minimum and is certainly nothing to glorify. The classical view which is aristocratic in nature sees a lifestyle of common drudgery as the condition of slaves and therefore incompatible with eudaimonia. We have very different ideas of what is good and noble because we subscribe to vastly divergent worldviews. You are a Christian (presumably Protestant) man (actually a MrMan) and I am a Pagan soul who looks to the classical world for my values and inspiration.

But the modern workweek is wholly unnatural. It is only driving droves of people to stress, depression, mental illness and despair.

No one say around counting statistics on how many people are stressed, depressed, or mentally ill until the development of modern work culture with all its microspecializations. Psychologists measure these things. Clinical psychologists have disproportionately high suicide rates, I hear.

For me what clinical psychologists have to say on this issue is superfluous because I can already see with my own eyes that many people are stressed and miserable and sick of working. You'd be surprised how many people talk openly about this nowadays. Increasingly more people are tired of modern work culture. Many say that they wish they could work less.

Human beings are simply not supposed to live like that! Fortunately in our high-tech 21st century human beings have no reason to work as much as they do. The workweek could and in my opinion should be reduced through the implementation of automation and labor-saving technologies.

Without some kind of communist revolution or major shift toward socialism, how is this going to work? Who is going to make the robots that make the hamburgers at McDonald's and that clean the motel rooms? The large corporations would do it. And who would make the money from selling these services? The owners of the robots or the robotic technology. These proletariate workers you want to free are unlikely to own the technologies. The money from the would go to the companies you despise, not the workers you want to work fewer hours.

While I'm certainly not in favor of the Bolshevik-style Jew socialism of the previous century and don't claim to have all the answers with regard to the best direction for civilization's evolution, I do believe that some kind of more cooperative socialistic system will inevitably come about in light of technological advancements making the present capitalist arrangement obsolete (assuming that some unforeseen catastrophe doesn't disrupt technological development before). Automation and AI will eventually become so advanced that most of today's forms of employment will become superfluous. Depletion of natural resources and environmental concerns will force us as a civilization to reconsider our current lifestyle of consumerism and conspicuous consumption. Various factors will push us towards some form of post-capitalist economy. What sort of system we adopt will depend on us and I hope we take a positive path which integrates new technological changes in an intelligent manner and preserves human freedom.

The current global elite seems to want to take us into an extremely negative form of socialism with their envisioned "Great Reset". I am opposed to this vision. It strikes me as too totalitarian and dystopian. I predict that the global elite's agenda will end in chaos though due to mass resistance.

@Pixel--Dude has stronger views on this point than I do. He believes that capitalism (which is now just corporatism) has run its course and has now become an obstacle to progress rather than a driver of it.

I never heard of female genital mutilation being part of Judaism.

You obviously have a short memory if you cannot remember your little discussion with @WilliamSmith. I bet he still thinks that you're a good creative writer, by the way!

but for those of us who actually have souls and inner spirituality modern society's insane work culture is nothing but a source of depression and frustration and many of us want nothing more than to get out of the rat race.

Do you think lazy people are more likely to be spiritual and have souls than diligent people?

My view on this is pretty much the same as @Winston's. I believe that spiritual people are more likely to be of a Bohemian disposition, to prefer to pursue their own creative and artistic pursuits regardless of how profitable they are, to desire much free time for spiritual practice (i.e., Yoga, meditation, etc.) for the evolution of the soul, and to work as little as absolutely necessary in order to have an abundance of free time. I also don't think that such a Bohemian is really lazy either because he is often focused on his own worthy creative and artistic pursuits (they just don't fall under the narrowly utilitarian modern view of diligence).

I also think that only a soulless unspiritual person could happily subject themselves to hours of monotonous drudgery without becoming depressed or going crazy. I actually believe that most people are soulless and have no higher spiritual faculties and that truly spiritual people (i.e., souled humans) are a small minority.

I also believe that Christianity isn't even remotely spiritual in any way. It consists of little more than theological readings, prayer to an external entity and a bizarre ritual celebrating blood sacrifice and imitating cannibalism and vampirism. The same Jewish cult doesn't include any actual spiritual practice for the evolution of the soul or real concept of soul evolution. It seems to me like a cheap pseudo-spirituality which mostly soulless people find spiritual.

[jamesbond]

The "work cultists" who I refer to are a subset of the population who praise the workaholic lifestyle and shame others who don't have the same enthusiasm about work. They are not experts but simply regular folks who have imbibed the old Protestant Work Ethic a bit too much and like to bang on about how hardworking they are and how everybody else is lazy. The OP and I know people like this in real life. We have contempt for those people and believe that their workaholism and desire to equate it with moral superiority are due to them being empty on the inside and having no other interests or virtues in life. You do realize that the OP posted this as a rant, don't you?

As for experts, I doubt that many subscribe to the idea of relentless industry being necessary for the advancement or upkeep of technological civilization anymore. From what I've seen there seems to be more talk about advanced robotics and automation making more and more forms of human labor redundant and concerns about the future of employment.

I do see diligence as a noble characteristic and laziness as a sinful characteristic. That doesn't mean that I think ones employer has to be the focus of all their work effort or that they have to hate their work for it to be real work. One can get a job with decent hours and use other times for work he enjoys or that breaks up his life with different kinds of activities.

You see work as noble because you (presumably) subscribe to the Protestant Work Ethic. I myself on the other hand subscribe to the classical view which holds that common drudgery is nothing more than a necessary evil which should be reduced to the absolute minimum and is certainly nothing to glorify. The classical view which is aristocratic in nature sees a lifestyle of common drudgery as the condition of slaves and therefore incompatible with eudaimonia. We have very different ideas of what is good and noble because we subscribe to vastly divergent worldviews. You are a Christian (presumably Protestant) man (actually a MrMan) and I am a Pagan soul who looks to the classical world for my values and inspiration.

But the modern workweek is wholly unnatural. It is only driving droves of people to stress, depression, mental illness and despair.

No one say around counting statistics on how many people are stressed, depressed, or mentally ill until the development of modern work culture with all its microspecializations. Psychologists measure these things. Clinical psychologists have disproportionately high suicide rates, I hear.

For me what clinical psychologists have to say on this issue is superfluous because I can already see with my own eyes that many people are stressed and miserable and sick of working. You'd be surprised how many people talk openly about this nowadays. Increasingly more people are tired of modern work culture. Many say that they wish they could work less.

The current global elite seems to want to take us into an extremely negative form of socialism with their envisioned "Great Reset". I am opposed to this vision. It strikes me as too totalitarian and dystopian. I predict that the global elite's agenda will end in chaos though due to mass resistance.

@Pixel--Dude has stronger views on this point than I do. He believes that capitalism (which is now just corporatism) has run its course and has now become an obstacle to progress rather than a driver of it.

I never heard of female genital mutilation being part of Judaism.

You obviously have a short memory if you cannot remember your little discussion with @WilliamSmith. I bet he still thinks that you're a good creative writer, by the way!

but for those of us who actually have souls and inner spirituality modern society's insane work culture is nothing but a source of depression and frustration and many of us want nothing more than to get out of the rat race.

Do you think lazy people are more likely to be spiritual and have souls than diligent people?

My view on this is pretty much the same as @Winston's. I believe that spiritual people are more likely to be of a Bohemian disposition, to prefer to pursue their own creative and artistic pursuits regardless of how profitable they are, to desire much free time for spiritual practice (i.e., Yoga, meditation, etc.) for the evolution of the soul, and to work as little as absolutely necessary in order to have an abundance of free time. I also don't think that such a Bohemian is really lazy either because he is often focused on his own worthy creative and artistic pursuits (they just don't fall under the narrowly utilitarian modern view of diligence).

I also think that only a soulless unspiritual person could happily subject themselves to hours of monotonous drudgery without becoming depressed or going crazy. I actually believe that most people are soulless and have no higher spiritual faculties and that truly spiritual people (i.e., souled humans) are a small minority.

I also believe that Christianity isn't even remotely spiritual in any way. It consists of little more than theological readings, prayer to an external entity and a bizarre ritual celebrating blood sacrifice and imitating cannibalism and vampirism. The same Jewish cult doesn't include any actual spiritual practice for the evolution of the soul or real concept of soul evolution. It seems to me like a cheap pseudo-spirituality which mostly soulless people find spiritual.

This was very well written Lucas88 and I agree with your ideas about work and how society views work. In Anglo countries we have the protestant work ethic on steroids. Some employers will even make you feel guilty for taking vacation time (or even family members might run a guilt trip on you for taking a vacation). It's ridiculous really how things have gotten to this point, where your job is supposed to be the center piece of your life.

[WanderingProtagonist]

Some work cultists like to make the argument that relentless industry is necessary for the development and upkeep of advanced technological civilization but they fail to understand that the question is a matter of degrees. Work cultists don't simply want people to be productive; they want work to be the center of everybody's lives, they want everybody to be subjected to long hours and strict work discipline, they want people to live to work!

Who are 'they?' What expert promotes this idea? Is there a book that promotes it?

The "work cultists" who I refer to are a subset of the population who praise the workaholic lifestyle and shame others who don't have the same enthusiasm about work. They are not experts but simply regular folks who have imbibed the old Protestant Work Ethic a bit too much and like to bang on about how hardworking they are and how everybody else is lazy.


I hear that everytime someone brings up immigrants "Oh Mexicans are so hardworking, Americans are lazy. Mexican Immigrants will do this and do that. Americans won't do this and wont do that." Goddamn ass kissers. And I'm thinking if these people are so damn hardworking, why do they need to move into the U.S.? Why aren't they being hardworking in their own countries? Seriously they throw that hardworking junk around in your face like somehow that makes specific people superior. It reminded me of that dumb Hispanic guy who said "I love paying taxes" I couldn't help but laugh at him when he said that. He said it just to be a suck up. Who the hell loves paying taxes? I don't know anyone who likes working their asses off only to get half of their money taken away from them so the Government can keep funding dogshit with it without your consent. That's one of the reasons why wealthy people try to avoid it if possible, they hate paying taxes. People work endless hours for nothing, some people work hard and still end up homeless anyway. I once heard my cousin say that "I love work" he said even when he can afford to retire he will still continue to work. I just kept quiet because I didn't know what to say.

[Lucas88]

I hear that everytime someone brings up immigrants "Oh Mexicans are so hardworking, Americans are lazy. Mexican Immigrants will do this and do that. Americans won't do this and wont do that." Goddamn ass kissers. And I'm thinking if these people are so damn hardworking, why do they need to move into the U.S.? Why aren't they being hardworking in their own countries? Seriously they throw that hardworking junk around in your face like somehow that makes specific people superior. It reminded me of that dumb Hispanic guy who said "I love paying taxes" I couldn't help but laugh at him when he said that. He said it just to be a suck up. Who the hell loves paying taxes? I don't know anyone who likes working their asses off only to get half of their money taken away from them so the Government can keep funding dogshit with it without your consent. That's one of the reasons why wealthy people try to avoid it if possible, they hate paying taxes. People work endless hours for nothing, some people work hard and still end up homeless anyway. I once heard my cousin say that "I love work" he said even when he can afford to retire he will still continue to work. I just kept quiet because I didn't know what to say.

I've lived in Mexico and know that Mexicans have a much more "Mediterranean" (i.e., relaxed) sense of work ethic than an Anglo-Saxon one. They view work as simply a source of income and don't turn it into a moral issue like Americans do. But still in Mexico companies typically make their employees work long hours and give them shit pay. They know that because of the relative poverty which pervades the lower strata of Mexican society they can take advantage of the desperation of a significant subset of the population and get them to accept a poor deal. I've spoken with my Mexican ex-girlfriend about the work culture in Mexico. She explained to me that companies there have adopted what she calls the US model of employment in which they simply exploit their workers for all that they can get out of them. She also expressed admiration for German work culture which is known for treating workers much better and believes that Mexico would be a better country if it imitated Germany rather than the US.

Because it doesn't pay to work in Mexico, many somewhat more well-off young Mexicans will often refuse to take a job because the low pay just isn't worth it. They'd rather neet it up for a few months rather than waste their time with a dud. This is even socially acceptable since Mexico isn't pervaded by the toxic Protestant Work Ethic and the related moralism of the Anglosphere. Mexicans usually view work as simply a means to an end and give much importance to other aspects of life such as family, friendships, relationships and relaxation. As a result of this they are generally more mentally balanced than Americans.

Some Mexicans emigrate to the US due to poverty at the lower end of society and poor pay. They think that they can achieve a better standard of living working in America and decide to take a chance. Many Mexican immigrants in the US work a lot and do shitty jobs that few Americans would like to do but that isn't because their culture promotes a hardworking disposition but rather they work the way they do out of desperation. Few people really want to live a US-style workaholic lifestyle. Most of the time people simply have no choice due to economic pressures and companies take advantage of that. They capitalize on people's desperation. But if you mention this you're a "Marxist"! You will be called a "commie" and portrayed as a villain just for defending your own interests! In America people are seen as little more than units of economic productivity and exist just to serve the companies of the wealthy. I'm not a Marxist but neither am I a proponent of predatory American Ayn Rand-style Jew capitalism.

[MrMan]

You see work as noble because you (presumably) subscribe to the Protestant Work Ethic. I myself on the other hand subscribe to the classical view which holds that common drudgery is nothing more than a necessary evil which should be reduced to the absolute minimum and is certainly nothing to glorify. The classical view which is aristocratic in nature sees a lifestyle of common drudgery as the condition of slaves and therefore incompatible with eudaimonia. We have very different ideas of what is good and noble because we subscribe to vastly divergent worldviews. You are a Christian (presumably Protestant) man (actually a MrMan) and I am a Pagan soul who looks to the classical world for my values and inspiration.

The idea that work results (eventually, generally) in success and that laziness is a bad trait predates protestantism. It shows up in the Proverbs in the Bible. In the Classical period, Jews might have been hard workers. The ten commandments say, 'Six days shalt thou work....'

But the idea that hard work is inconsistent with a 'classical' worldview doesn't seem right, either. I don't know of any early Greek philosopher that applied the Golden Mean to work. I haven't seen that on any of the lists. I would expect 'diligence' to have been on the middle if one did that. But Roman culture is 'Classical' and one of the Cato's worse regrets, he said, was that he spent a whole day doing nothing at all. I take that as a hint that Romans valued diligence. That, combined with their idea that dominating other was virtuous may have contributed to their conquering their corner of the world.

But the modern workweek is wholly unnatural. It is only driving droves of people to stress, depression, mental illness and despair.

No one say around counting statistics on how many people are stressed, depressed, or mentally ill until the development of modern work culture with all its microspecializations. Psychologists measure these things. Clinical psychologists have disproportionately high suicide rates, I hear.

For me what clinical psychologists have to say on this issue is superfluous because I can already see with my own eyes that many people are stressed and miserable and sick of working. You'd be surprised how many people talk openly about this nowadays. Increasingly more people are tired of modern work culture. Many say that they wish they could work less.

One could dislike modern work culture and still subscribe to the Protestant work ethic. That 'ethic' was prominent when people were farmers and small business owners running family businesses. We shouldn't conflate it with the idea of the majority of the population being hired servants. If you run your own cobbler shop you can close up and take a few days off for your daughter's wedding without asking permission. Farmers could go a few days without weeding anything.

The current global elite seems to want to take us into an extremely negative form of socialism with their envisioned "Great Reset". I am opposed to this vision. It strikes me as too totalitarian and dystopian. I predict that the global elite's agenda will end in chaos though due to mass resistance.

And the whole plan could never get off the ground, or something like that could happen way off int eh future. It sounds pretty bad to me, too. I've got a friend whose listening to really conservative Q type videos who believes some new currency is on the way to come out, but it sounds almost like the same thing.

I never heard of female genital mutilation being part of Judaism.

You obviously have a short memory if you cannot remember your little discussion with @WilliamSmith. I bet he still thinks that you're a good creative writer, by the way!

I don't know what you are talking about. Are you thinking of Muslim cultures rather than Jewish?

Do you think lazy people are more likely to be spiritual and have souls than diligent people?

My view on this is pretty much the same as @Winston's. I believe that spiritual people are more likely to be of a Bohemian disposition, to prefer to pursue their own creative and artistic pursuits regardless of how profitable they are, to desire much free time for spiritual practice (i.e., Yoga, meditation, etc.) for the evolution of the soul, and to work as little as absolutely necessary in order to have an abundance of free time. I also don't think that such a Bohemian is really lazy either because he is often focused on his own worthy creative and artistic pursuits (they just don't fall under the narrowly utilitarian modern view of diligence).[/quote]

That sounds like another variation of the carnal/nonspiritual type to me.

I also think that only a soulless unspiritual person could happily subject themselves to hours of monotonous drudgery without becoming depressed or going crazy. I actually believe that most people are soulless and have no higher spiritual faculties and that truly spiritual people (i.e., souled humans) are a small minority.

So do you think 'spiritual' people are more prone to mental illness?

What do you think about the ethical issue of freeloaders who think they are 'spiritual' not producing anything but gobbling up the resources. Imagine you are stranded on an island with 20 people. Would you rather be there with tough people who can endure a bit of monotonous drudgery, working on building a structure, making fire, catching fish, digging up edible roots, etc., or a bunch of 'spiritual' artists who lay around all day talking about how spiritual they are, smoking up the last of their weed, and not working? Is it right to gobble up what little food they get together if you aren't helping with the building, fishing, etc.?

If you are in a career you consider to be monotonous and full of drudgery, work hard to get some training to find another job you enjoy more.

This was very well written Lucas88 and I agree with your ideas about work and how society views work. In Anglo countries we have the protestant work ethic on steroids. Some employers will even make you feel guilty for taking vacation time (or even family members might run a guilt trip on you for taking a vacation). It's ridiculous really how things have gotten to this point, where your job is supposed to be the center piece of your life.

I've never experienced a corporation guilt tripping people for taking a vacation. Some people feel that sense of responsibility for their work and wonder how they can leave it, but big corporations sometimes have rules requiring the vacation, and HR types insist on it. But I suppose every company is different. I'm glad I'm not working in the corporate arena. I don't think I'd want to again unless I was a director, or maybe a CEO, but I think I'd prefer to outsource that if I owned a big company.

[Pixel--Dude]

If most jobs could really be automated don't you think companies would do it? Who wants to deal those pesky workers who might not even show up on time when you could just have a machine do it instead. We don't even have a decent android house servant yet! Speaking as a business man, (it feels strange to call myself that), I would rather automate some jobs than have to hire people. The problem is machines aren't nearly capable enough to do most jobs to an acceptable level that would justify the cost. I wouldn't bother hiring if I didn't have to. Technology isn't advanced enough for the techno-utopia you are pushing for.

Technology is advanced enough to significantly reduce the need to force people to work so they can "earn a living" there's a hotel in Japan run entirely by robots.

https://youtu.be/jI3uUlztDbM

Robots which help with surgical procedures, with much greater precision than any human surgeon could ever achieve.

https://youtu.be/OfX6qiJKDMk

What about things like this?

https://youtu.be/rbki4HR41-4

Plenty of technology out there to relieve people of having to work. This culture pushes this lifestyle of relentless work and stress onto people so they can justify their own existence. No other living thing on the planet has to pay to live here, it's an absolute joke. You're forced to get up Monday to Friday and repeat the same monotonous bullshit week in and week out and we're lied to and made to believe we are free. This is why there is so much drug addiction, depression and suicide in our society because people are just reduced to automatons serving some corporate elite for the rest of their lives scraping a living just to get by. Things like mental illness and suicide are pretty much unheard of in tribal culture where they have a life more in alignment with nature. They look after each other, if a woman gets pregnant the whole tribe will help her raise the baby, compare that with a single woman struggling to raise a child in this cold dystopia of a society where competition and getting ahead are pushed as core values.

[Pixel--Dude]

Some work cultists like to make the argument that relentless industry is necessary for the development and upkeep of advanced technological civilization but they fail to understand that the question is a matter of degrees. Work cultists don't simply want people to be productive; they want work to be the center of everybody's lives, they want everybody to be subjected to long hours and strict work discipline, they want people to live to work!

Who are 'they?' What expert promotes this idea? Is there a book that promotes it?

The "work cultists" who I refer to are a subset of the population who praise the workaholic lifestyle and shame others who don't have the same enthusiasm about work. They are not experts but simply regular folks who have imbibed the old Protestant Work Ethic a bit too much and like to bang on about how hardworking they are and how everybody else is lazy. The OP and I know people like this in real life. We have contempt for those people and believe that their workaholism and desire to equate it with moral superiority are due to them being empty on the inside and having no other interests or virtues in life. You do realize that the OP posted this as a rant, don't you?

As for experts, I doubt that many subscribe to the idea of relentless industry being necessary for the advancement or upkeep of technological civilization anymore. From what I've seen there seems to be more talk about advanced robotics and automation making more and more forms of human labor redundant and concerns about the future of employment.

I do see diligence as a noble characteristic and laziness as a sinful characteristic. That doesn't mean that I think ones employer has to be the focus of all their work effort or that they have to hate their work for it to be real work. One can get a job with decent hours and use other times for work he enjoys or that breaks up his life with different kinds of activities.

You see work as noble because you (presumably) subscribe to the Protestant Work Ethic. I myself on the other hand subscribe to the classical view which holds that common drudgery is nothing more than a necessary evil which should be reduced to the absolute minimum and is certainly nothing to glorify. The classical view which is aristocratic in nature sees a lifestyle of common drudgery as the condition of slaves and therefore incompatible with eudaimonia. We have very different ideas of what is good and noble because we subscribe to vastly divergent worldviews. You are a Christian (presumably Protestant) man (actually a MrMan) and I am a Pagan soul who looks to the classical world for my values and inspiration.

But the modern workweek is wholly unnatural. It is only driving droves of people to stress, depression, mental illness and despair.

No one say around counting statistics on how many people are stressed, depressed, or mentally ill until the development of modern work culture with all its microspecializations. Psychologists measure these things. Clinical psychologists have disproportionately high suicide rates, I hear.

For me what clinical psychologists have to say on this issue is superfluous because I can already see with my own eyes that many people are stressed and miserable and sick of working. You'd be surprised how many people talk openly about this nowadays. Increasingly more people are tired of modern work culture. Many say that they wish they could work less.

Human beings are simply not supposed to live like that! Fortunately in our high-tech 21st century human beings have no reason to work as much as they do. The workweek could and in my opinion should be reduced through the implementation of automation and labor-saving technologies.

Without some kind of communist revolution or major shift toward socialism, how is this going to work? Who is going to make the robots that make the hamburgers at McDonald's and that clean the motel rooms? The large corporations would do it. And who would make the money from selling these services? The owners of the robots or the robotic technology. These proletariate workers you want to free are unlikely to own the technologies. The money from the would go to the companies you despise, not the workers you want to work fewer hours.

While I'm certainly not in favor of the Bolshevik-style Jew socialism of the previous century and don't claim to have all the answers with regard to the best direction for civilization's evolution, I do believe that some kind of more cooperative socialistic system will inevitably come about in light of technological advancements making the present capitalist arrangement obsolete (assuming that some unforeseen catastrophe doesn't disrupt technological development before). Automation and AI will eventually become so advanced that most of today's forms of employment will become superfluous. Depletion of natural resources and environmental concerns will force us as a civilization to reconsider our current lifestyle of consumerism and conspicuous consumption. Various factors will push us towards some form of post-capitalist economy. What sort of system we adopt will depend on us and I hope we take a positive path which integrates new technological changes in an intelligent manner and preserves human freedom.

The current global elite seems to want to take us into an extremely negative form of socialism with their envisioned "Great Reset". I am opposed to this vision. It strikes me as too totalitarian and dystopian. I predict that the global elite's agenda will end in chaos though due to mass resistance.

@Pixel--Dude has stronger views on this point than I do. He believes that capitalism (which is now just corporatism) has run its course and has now become an obstacle to progress rather than a driver of it.

I never heard of female genital mutilation being part of Judaism.

You obviously have a short memory if you cannot remember your little discussion with @WilliamSmith. I bet he still thinks that you're a good creative writer, by the way!

but for those of us who actually have souls and inner spirituality modern society's insane work culture is nothing but a source of depression and frustration and many of us want nothing more than to get out of the rat race.

Do you think lazy people are more likely to be spiritual and have souls than diligent people?

My view on this is pretty much the same as @Winston's. I believe that spiritual people are more likely to be of a Bohemian disposition, to prefer to pursue their own creative and artistic pursuits regardless of how profitable they are, to desire much free time for spiritual practice (i.e., Yoga, meditation, etc.) for the evolution of the soul, and to work as little as absolutely necessary in order to have an abundance of free time. I also don't think that such a Bohemian is really lazy either because he is often focused on his own worthy creative and artistic pursuits (they just don't fall under the narrowly utilitarian modern view of diligence).

I also think that only a soulless unspiritual person could happily subject themselves to hours of monotonous drudgery without becoming depressed or going crazy. I actually believe that most people are soulless and have no higher spiritual faculties and that truly spiritual people (i.e., souled humans) are a small minority.

I also believe that Christianity isn't even remotely spiritual in any way. It consists of little more than theological readings, prayer to an external entity and a bizarre ritual celebrating blood sacrifice and imitating cannibalism and vampirism. The same Jewish cult doesn't include any actual spiritual practice for the evolution of the soul or real concept of soul evolution. It seems to me like a cheap pseudo-spirituality which mostly soulless people find spiritual.

Capitalism used to be a machine which we fed in order to keep us alive. And for a time it was good. It pushed innovation and we progressed technologically. Things like the Internet are great inventions for connectivity and sharing information etc. But I feel now the cost is outweighing the benefit.

When kleptocratic elites are monopolising absolutely all the resources and controlling everything it tips the scale too far in one direction. The rich know no bounds to their greed and they will continue to keep taking and taking and taking from people who have f**k all. This kind of dynamic on its current trajectory means that capitalism is unsustainable and unless an alternate way we can live replaces capitalism we will be looking at society moving into either anarchy or totalitarianism eventually. Guaranteed!

Not only that, even if the elites eased off with their greed their companies would still be responsible for the decline of our planet. I think it is something like 10 companies (which own other companies) that are responsible for up to 70% of the world's pollution. Capitalism is literally destroying the planet, so how can anyone be naive enough to believe this model is sustainable? If anything unless we change it guarantees our doom.

So Capitalism, the machine which took a life of its own and navigates itself through great innovation like the Internet and mediocre pointless bullshit like electric coffee stirrers (stir your own f***ing coffee!) Has now become a machine which feeds from human beings to keep itself going. As I said earlier instead of a system which exists to serve humanity we have humanity which exists to serve the system. Boils my f***ing piss.

[Pixel--Dude]

You see work as noble because you (presumably) subscribe to the Protestant Work Ethic. I myself on the other hand subscribe to the classical view which holds that common drudgery is nothing more than a necessary evil which should be reduced to the absolute minimum and is certainly nothing to glorify. The classical view which is aristocratic in nature sees a lifestyle of common drudgery as the condition of slaves and therefore incompatible with eudaimonia. We have very different ideas of what is good and noble because we subscribe to vastly divergent worldviews. You are a Christian (presumably Protestant) man (actually a MrMan) and I am a Pagan soul who looks to the classical world for my values and inspiration.

The idea that work results (eventually, generally) in success and that laziness is a bad trait predates protestantism. It shows up in the Proverbs in the Bible. In the Classical period, Jews might have been hard workers. The ten commandments say, 'Six days shalt thou work....'

But the idea that hard work is inconsistent with a 'classical' worldview doesn't seem right, either. I don't know of any early Greek philosopher that applied the Golden Mean to work. I haven't seen that on any of the lists. I would expect 'diligence' to have been on the middle if one did that. But Roman culture is 'Classical' and one of the Cato's worse regrets, he said, was that he spent a whole day doing nothing at all. I take that as a hint that Romans valued diligence. That, combined with their idea that dominating other was virtuous may have contributed to their conquering their corner of the world.

But the modern workweek is wholly unnatural. It is only driving droves of people to stress, depression, mental illness and despair.

No one say around counting statistics on how many people are stressed, depressed, or mentally ill until the development of modern work culture with all its microspecializations. Psychologists measure these things. Clinical psychologists have disproportionately high suicide rates, I hear.

For me what clinical psychologists have to say on this issue is superfluous because I can already see with my own eyes that many people are stressed and miserable and sick of working. You'd be surprised how many people talk openly about this nowadays. Increasingly more people are tired of modern work culture. Many say that they wish they could work less.

One could dislike modern work culture and still subscribe to the Protestant work ethic. That 'ethic' was prominent when people were farmers and small business owners running family businesses. We shouldn't conflate it with the idea of the majority of the population being hired servants. If you run your own cobbler shop you can close up and take a few days off for your daughter's wedding without asking permission. Farmers could go a few days without weeding anything.

The current global elite seems to want to take us into an extremely negative form of socialism with their envisioned "Great Reset". I am opposed to this vision. It strikes me as too totalitarian and dystopian. I predict that the global elite's agenda will end in chaos though due to mass resistance.

And the whole plan could never get off the ground, or something like that could happen way off int eh future. It sounds pretty bad to me, too. I've got a friend whose listening to really conservative Q type videos who believes some new currency is on the way to come out, but it sounds almost like the same thing.

I never heard of female genital mutilation being part of Judaism.

You obviously have a short memory if you cannot remember your little discussion with @WilliamSmith. I bet he still thinks that you're a good creative writer, by the way!

I don't know what you are talking about. Are you thinking of Muslim cultures rather than Jewish?

Do you think lazy people are more likely to be spiritual and have souls than diligent people?

My view on this is pretty much the same as @Winston's. I believe that spiritual people are more likely to be of a Bohemian disposition, to prefer to pursue their own creative and artistic pursuits regardless of how profitable they are, to desire much free time for spiritual practice (i.e., Yoga, meditation, etc.) for the evolution of the soul, and to work as little as absolutely necessary in order to have an abundance of free time. I also don't think that such a Bohemian is really lazy either because he is often focused on his own worthy creative and artistic pursuits (they just don't fall under the narrowly utilitarian modern view of diligence).

That sounds like another variation of the carnal/nonspiritual type to me.

I also think that only a soulless unspiritual person could happily subject themselves to hours of monotonous drudgery without becoming depressed or going crazy. I actually believe that most people are soulless and have no higher spiritual faculties and that truly spiritual people (i.e., souled humans) are a small minority.

So do you think 'spiritual' people are more prone to mental illness?

What do you think about the ethical issue of freeloaders who think they are 'spiritual' not producing anything but gobbling up the resources. Imagine you are stranded on an island with 20 people. Would you rather be there with tough people who can endure a bit of monotonous drudgery, working on building a structure, making fire, catching fish, digging up edible roots, etc., or a bunch of 'spiritual' artists who lay around all day talking about how spiritual they are, smoking up the last of their weed, and not working? Is it right to gobble up what little food they get together if you aren't helping with the building, fishing, etc.?

If you are in a career you consider to be monotonous and full of drudgery, work hard to get some training to find another job you enjoy more.

This was very well written Lucas88 and I agree with your ideas about work and how society views work. In Anglo countries we have the protestant work ethic on steroids. Some employers will even make you feel guilty for taking vacation time (or even family members might run a guilt trip on you for taking a vacation). It's ridiculous really how things have gotten to this point, where your job is supposed to be the center piece of your life.

I've never experienced a corporation guilt tripping people for taking a vacation. Some people feel that sense of responsibility for their work and wonder how they can leave it, but big corporations sometimes have rules requiring the vacation, and HR types insist on it. But I suppose every company is different. I'm glad I'm not working in the corporate arena. I don't think I'd want to again unless I was a director, or maybe a CEO, but I think I'd prefer to outsource that if I owned a big company.
[/quote]

NPC Django Stevens of this world will never understand why people are not motivated or compliant enough to be happy as a slave for some company. They will never break their NPC programming as they are unable to comprehend anything which falls outside of the mainstream cult of hard work.

https://youtu.be/dQ65MK5ZnHQ

Talking to people who have this point of view like you @MrMan is synonymous to the video above. You talk about "freeloaders" who gobble up resources when that is exactly what the church has always been. How many billions of dollars does the Vatican have? Why isn't more of it being used to help those who are in need? The truth is because the church, along with these politicians and "philanthropists" like Bill Gates are the real parasites on society, not someone who doesn't want to sell their life in exchange for fiat currency just to scrape a living. But NPCs who support this system with lame arguments and analogies about desert islands will never recognise where the real blame lies because they are utterly brainwashed. Just because you are happy to be the house nigger doesn't mean others have to tolerate this lifestyle of pointless clandestine slavery. This is why I think those who push this proletariat work ethic onto others are utter degenerates.

Work makes people miserable, it makes them exhausted and stressed and takes away from their own passions and affects their relationships because they have no time or energy to invest in them. People are reduced to numbers in companies that don't give a shit about them.

The Jewish religion does have genital mutilation doesn't it? Don't they force young kids to cut their foreskin off? Doesn't sound like a progressive thinking ideology. f**k the Jews and their slave ideologies which push beliefs onto people which go against human nature. All of it from organised religion to the 9-5 work week are completely unnatural. Why would Yahweh, if he was an all loving God, force his children to work 6 out of 7 days a week?

Labour should be automated, so people can be free. Or at the very least automated as much as possible so we could share what Labour needed doing between those who were able so people work like 5 hours a week or something and the rest of the time can be invested in doing something for themselves like cultivating their talents, or learning vocational skills. Have more people train in medicine and move towards people becoming self sufficient.

People like those who push the proletariat work ethic or dogmatically follow organised religions without a shred of critical thinking need to stop dwelling on bullshit abstractions and realise that people are suffering around the world, but of course there isn't enough money to help them. "Where will the money come from to automate everything?!" Or "Where will the money come from to feed everyone?!" Where does the money come from in the first place? It doesn't even exist! It doesn't come from anywhere and it never did. I read that only 3% of the world's money is actually physical these days. It's absolutely insane that people value fictional currency over human wellbeing and the wellbeing of the planet we live on.

#Clown World.

[Lucas88]

But the idea that hard work is inconsistent with a 'classical' worldview doesn't seem right, either. I don't know of any early Greek philosopher that applied the Golden Mean to work. I haven't seen that on any of the lists. I would expect 'diligence' to have been on the middle if one did that. But Roman culture is 'Classical' and one of the Cato's worse regrets, he said, was that he spent a whole day doing nothing at all. I take that as a hint that Romans valued diligence. That, combined with their idea that dominating other was virtuous may have contributed to their conquering their corner of the world.

The classical worldview emphasized the cultivation of wisdom and other virtues which are conducive to eudaimonia but, from what I have read, within classical though there was a tendency to view common drudgery as a lowly condition belonging to slaves and to regard it as a source of indignity. Make no mistake about it. The classical worldview was profoundly aristocratic. There was little glorification of the humble or the lot of the proles. Classical men of wisdom advocated the pursuit of personal excellence and therefore diligence but that was more along the lines of philosophy and learning, physical fitness, military virtue and knowledge of the arts and high culture and certainly not along the lines of servile drudgery or the modern concept of work. I'm sure that classical thinkers would view the modern concept of work as absolutely degrading and contemptible. The aristocracies of antiquity started off as military classes of free men who fought into order to avoid being enslaved, hence their obsession with military virtue and physical fitness. But once their societies became more stable and peaceful the same aristocracies evolved also into a class of high culture, philosophy and the arts. Common drudgery wasn't something that they admired. Classical man's attitude towards work couldn't be any further from that of the sickly and slavish Protestants of the time of Calvin and ilk.

One could dislike modern work culture and still subscribe to the Protestant work ethic. That 'ethic' was prominent when people were farmers and small business owners running family businesses. We shouldn't conflate it with the idea of the majority of the population being hired servants. If you run your own cobbler shop you can close up and take a few days off for your daughter's wedding without asking permission. Farmers could go a few days without weeding anything.

Technically you could, and I'm happy for people who set up their own small business and succeed, but the truth is that the Protestant work ethic has been used to justify the majority of the population's hired servitude and long work hours. In fact I remember reading that in England during the industrial revolution even some church hymns lauded drudgery and encouraged the faithful to put up with it in order to receive better blessings in heaven. Talk about indoctrination! Moreover, the Protestant work ethic crowd have always been the ones who moralize work the most and shame those who they consider not hardworking enough (maybe with the exception of Marxists who are just as bad when it comes to this). They're the ones who typically glorify the morbid US workaholic lifestyle and about whom this thread is primarily about. In fact I've lived in Mediterranean and Latin countries where the Protestant work ethic is nowhere to be found and I've found that they have a much more relaxed attitude towards work and a much healthier conception of life than any historically Protestant nation. Protestantism and its moralistic attitude towards life are part of the problem. I could never trust a Protestant.

And the whole plan could never get off the ground, or something like that could happen way off int eh future. It sounds pretty bad to me, too. I've got a friend whose listening to really conservative Q type videos who believes some new currency is on the way to come out, but it sounds almost like the same thing.

The World Economic Forum are openly talking about this on their website and they call it the "Great Reset". From what I've heard they aim to implement it within the next 10 years. Many people are saying that the scamdemic, the war with Russia and the economic crisis are manufactured events in order to hasten its arrival. The Great Reset might get off the ground if a large percentage of the population are convinced to support it (I think this is why the corporate media have been aggressively pushing leftist ideas in recent decades). Its implementation is a possibility just like how the Jewish Bolsheviks implemented communism in Russia in less than a decade. But fortunately I have faith that in today's age of the internet and skepticism of government and corporate agendas sufficient people will see what is going on and resist it.

Now, I as somebody with classical values am definitely in favor of progressive automation and elimination of all unnecessary drudgery, but not in the way that the NWO elite's World Economic Forum wants to do things. The kind of society that they wish to establish is just too dystopian for my liking.

I don't know what you are talking about. Are you thinking of Muslim cultures rather than Jewish?

You obviously don't remember your little tiff with WilliamSmith then!

That sounds like another variation of the carnal/nonspiritual type to me.

Spiritual people like Winston require a lot of free time for exploration and self-development and the pursuit of certain experiences since that is what our souls ask of us and what we perceive as necessary for our soul growth. Modern work culture with its long hours of drudgery often gets in the way of this and so many of us instinctively realize that we have to minimize work or "get out of the rat race" as some people put it. This sentiment seems to be shared by a lot of people on this forum. Many here are sick and tired of America's insane workaholic lifestyle.

But let's cut the crap. There's nothing truly spiritual about the New Age hippie types who sit around smoking pot and getting high on acid as they discuss Eastern metaphysics just as there's nothing spiritual about going to church and listening to preacher prattle about theology or participating in rituals of mock blood sacrifice. The only true form of spiritual practice is Yoga and meditation for the opening of the chakras and the nadis, the ascension of the Kundalini and the development of the Siddhis, all for the evolution of the soul towards its own power and godhood. Everything else is just nonsense pseudo-spirituality designed to distract spiritual seekers and trap them in inertia. Truly practicing spiritual people don't take drugs or alcohol because such harmful practices are an obstacle to true spiritual evolution. Only confused immature spiritual people think that those vices are compatible with spirituality. You can't be a serious Yogi or meditator and at the same time get shitfaced on booze and pot each weekend. True spirituality requires peak physical condition.

I think that only a deranged Protestant brought up on Calvinist claptrap could find anything spiritual about drudgery.

So do you think 'spiritual' people are more prone to mental illness?

No, I think that people who live in a toxic environment are more prone to mental illness. And modern workaholic societies like America have some of the highest rates of mental illness in the world so modern work culture must be toxic and detrimental to mental health.

What do you think about the ethical issue of freeloaders who think they are 'spiritual' not producing anything but gobbling up the resources. Imagine you are stranded on an island with 20 people. Would you rather be there with tough people who can endure a bit of monotonous drudgery, working on building a structure, making fire, catching fish, digging up edible roots, etc., or a bunch of 'spiritual' artists who lay around all day talking about how spiritual they are, smoking up the last of their weed, and not working? Is it right to gobble up what little food they get together if you aren't helping with the building, fishing, etc.?

On a desert island I'd rather be with rough warlike people (I'm kinda a bit wild and warlike myself) who can hunt and survive in the wild. I'd certainly not like to be stranded with a slavish Protestant work ethicist who endlessly preaches about the beatitudes of hard work though. His "virtues" would most likely be superfluous anyway outside of modern industrial society and moralists like that just bore me.

But we are not on a desert island or in any primitive world. We live in an advanced technological civilization with automation already on our doorstep. In light of this I think that we as a society should be working less and enjoying more leisure time and having more time to develop our intellectual and artistic faculties among other things. I'm in favor of using technology intelligently in order to make a society more conducive to human flourishing (I and many others perceive a 40 hour workweek of drudgery as a hindrance to that). I really couldn't care less about old moral ideologies that aren't even relevant today.

If you are in a career you consider to be monotonous and full of drudgery, work hard to get some training to find another job you enjoy more.

Everybody including the anti-work people does what they can to get by in this system because we have no other choice. Some people find jobs that are more bearable than others. But those of us who support the use of automation for the reduction of drudgery and oppose the toxic modern work culture for the misery that it is causing for so many helpless people are not going to stand by idly (pun intended ) just because we found something that we find mildly enjoyable. We wish to live in a worthier world in which humans are free from constant drudgery and servility, free to flourish on their own terms. So we spread our anti-work and automationist ideas online and attempt to influence others in order for our desired future to have a chance at manifesting in the world in the future.

[MrMan]

If you'll notice, the Protestant-work-ethic countries in Europe tend to be the richest.

Also, there is still the problem that the makers of the robots and the technologies are not the laborers you want to free up. Capitalists would benefit, and probably not the workers.

[Pixel--Dude]

If you'll notice, the Protestant-work-ethic countries in Europe tend to be the richest.

Also, there is still the problem that the makers of the robots and the technologies are not the laborers you want to free up. Capitalists would benefit, and probably not the workers.

Aren't there robots that build other robots? How much input would we really need to have? Automation of labour only becomes a positive if we transcend capitalism and move into a new system which maximises freedom and is more conducive to the individual. Worrying about where the money will come from for this or for that should become a thing of the past.

Here's a video of some machines doing manual labour jobs.

https://youtu.be/HfJpaRLJ0VI


Here's an article about 100 companies causing 71% of worlds population. Half these companies probably make shit nobody really needs.

https://www.theguardian.com/sustainable ... ate-change


This demonstrates how everything is pretty much monopolised and there is no competition.

https://capitaloneshopping.com/blog/11- ... 4b28425120


These corporations and globalist elite pigs should not be in control of our lives. The proletariat work ethic is nothing but conditioning for pliable slaves who then in turn come to love their own endentured servitude to these corporate masters. To these proletariat it is inconceivable that others wouldn't want to be slaves to fiat currency. Unemployed due to mental illness and accused of being scroungers and freeloaders whilst the super rich siphon all our money away into private offshore bank accounts. It gets my goat.

The only reason we don't move into a new system with automated labour and transcend capitalism is because these corporate elites will lose their power and influence, they become obsolete. So they would rather push us into destitution through manufactured crisis like the pandemics and the war in Russia so that we all become dependent on them. This is what they talk about in Davos every year where the corporate "philanthropists" like Bill Gates give governments their marching orders. Legislation gets passed giving corporations more free reign, like the thing with The WHO being given more powers in a pandemic situation.

Where technology is concerned the genie is out of the bottle and soon these corporate elite wont be able to justify people working crappy jobs when everything can be automated. They are rushing to establish complete control before they can take the next logical step, which is automation. Eventually we will have to fight them for our freedom, or bend over and take one for the team as we move into a totalitarian police state.

Robert Conquest (at least I think it was him, currently can't find the source I want.) A historian who studied totalitarian states like Stalin's Russia made a list of what constitutes a tyrannical government. A lot of the points listed can be attributed to our current government.