Most people place loyalty above right and wrong, am I right?

[Winston]

Hi all,
I've been wondering about this for quite some time.

Do most people place loyalty above right and wrong, when they come into conflict? I think so.

For example, when a family member or friend is in a dispute with another, and it is obvious that they are in the wrong, do you side with your family member or friend anyway, knowing that they are wrong? Or do you stand for principles and tell your loved one/friend that they are in the wrong? I think most people side with their friend or family member in such cases. Am I right?

Here in the Philippines for instance, the workers will NEVER say anything against their boss or someone who's paying them, even if their boss is a crook, scammer, and cheats people. Thus, they put loyalty above morals or principles of course. So they will never sympathize with a customer who complains.

And in my girlfriend Dianne's family, the same seems to apply. If her family tries to scam me into giving out a huge loan, for instance, as they have in the past, Dianne will never tell her family that they are wrong to try to scam a ton of money off of me shamelessly. And if Dianne hits me frivolously or strikes me, her mom will never say to her, "Dianne, hitting and violence are wrong. You should learn to control your behavior." because in their eyes, family is everything and you must always side with your family no matter what, even if they are in the wrong.

My family on the other hand, is the opposite. My parents will side with who they think is right even against a relative or family member. In fact, Taiwanese people tend to side with the other party during a dispute with one of their own, out of a sense of wanting to humble themselves and be nice to others. It's a weird thing, but many Taiwanese do this, and often with double standards (I'll describe one example in another thread).

Long ago, my mom sided against her older sister during a legal dispute, which pissed the hell out of my aunt. And hence, they have not spoken to each other since 1988. In addition, that aunt has a childish personality that is immature, quick to anger, and always seeking to dominate and control others, which makes most people uncomfortable, which has alienated her from her other sisters as well, not just my mom. So that had a lot to do with it too.

And in regards to my ex-friend Stefan, a man with a very abusive and nasty personality (and suffice to say, I now hold testimonials from four other people that knew him who say the exact same thing, which I'll post later), his girlfriend and her sister always side him with and defend him, no matter what, even though they know the truth about his personality and behavior toward others, and have witnessed it firsthand on many occasions. BUT, since he PAYS them and SUPPORTS their family, he can never be wrong in their eyes, since "might makes right" and whoever pays them or has the money makes the rules and creates their reality. Thus, to them, a "financial savior" is considered infallible. This is true, but of course they will deny it if you point it out.

Anyhow, I think one mistake people often make is that we assume that others are like ourselves. I was explaining this to a girl here earlier. For example, liars usually assume that other people lie a lot like they do. And highly moralistic people tend to assume that others care about right and wrong just like they do. And often are disappointed when they find out that they aren't.

What do you think?

I don't know about you, but it kind of pisses me off that most people will side with their friends and family when they are in the wrong, placing loyalty above morals and principles. I hate biases and live for truth and objectivity. And I hate "The Emperor's New Clothes" syndrome too. To me, a spade is a spade and there's no shame admitting it. It's a pity so few people do too. Am I right?

[wraith]

I thought you disagreed with the East Asian mentality.

I find it odd when people side with their family in a dispute. Even though my parents occasionally side with a family member, they usually don't. If you know that a family member has done something wrong, then you don't give support to them, and try to find another way to help them by correcting their 'mistakes'.

If they know that you did everything right, then they would support you and give you advice or money. Otherwise, there would be a long lecture on what you should or shouldn't do.

[Winston]

I thought you disagreed with the East Asian mentality.

I find it odd when people side with their family in a dispute. Even though my parents occasionally side with a family member, they usually don't. If you know that a family member has done something wrong, then you don't give support to them, and try to find another way to help them by correcting their 'mistakes'.

If they know that you did everything right, then they would support you and give you advice or money. Otherwise, there would be a long lecture on what you should or shouldn't do.

I disagree with some things about East Asian mentality, but not everything. I don't like their anti-sex mentality, and conformist attitude, for instance.

It sounds like your family is like mine then. You said you are Asian right?

But are most American families like that too? In the Philippines, people do not usually side against their family, even if they know they are in the wrong. Morals seem to be less important here. But of course, you aren't supposed to say that, since it's taboo to mention it, "Emperor's New Clothes" again. I was having a discussion about this with by bank manager the other day, and she laughed and said "no comment" even though she hinted that I was right.

[Shokkers]

If people did NOT place Loyalty before Right and Wrong:
1) There would have been no Nazi Party.
2) There would never have been a Mafia.
3) There would never have been an Inquisition
Et freakin' cetera...

Loyalty is not bad per se, except when it comes from a position of FEAR, which it often does.
If you interviewed every worker for virtually any corporation, you'd find that most of them will claim 100%
Loyalty to the corporation, since it's buttering their bread...those who have an independent means of income
will probably place right and wrong above Loyalty.

Best, K.K.
http://www.rockherworld.net

[polya]

I always thought right or wrong was more important than loyalty, but time & time again I've found it ain't so. For example, if a woman fights with you, a man (she doesn't know) will defend her - even if she's wrong. People won't side with you even if you are right, so theres only the schoolyard bully mentality: get numbers. Sad, but true now.

[Winston]

If people did NOT place Loyalty before Right and Wrong:
1) There would have been no Nazi Party.
2) There would never have been a Mafia.
3) There would never have been an Inquisition
Et freakin' cetera...

Loyalty is not bad per se, except when it comes from a position of FEAR, which it often does.
If you interviewed every worker for virtually any corporation, you'd find that most of them will claim 100%
Loyalty to the corporation, since it's buttering their bread...those who have an independent means of income
will probably place right and wrong above Loyalty.

Best, K.K.
http://www.rockherworld.net

W: What about you Shokkers? Do you place loyalty above right and wrong? In family situations or corporate situations?

I think it also depends on the degree to which that person is wrong. If they are wrong a little, then loyalty may seem more important, especially if it's someone who's paying you or a family member that you love. But if they are wrong by a lot, then that's another matter.