Join John Adams, world renowned Intl Matchmaker, Monday nights 8:30 EST for Live Webcasts!
And check out Five Reasons why you should attend a FREE AFA Seminar! See locations and dates here.



View Active Topics       View Your Posts       Latest 100 Topics       FAQ Topics       Mobile Friendly Theme


Why MGTOW can be potentially dangerous to young men

Vent your rants and raves here about whatever makes you mad, angry or frustrated.

Moderators: fschmidt, jamesbond

mattyman
Freshman Poster
Posts: 311
Joined: September 12th, 2010, 11:15 pm

Why MGTOW can be potentially dangerous to young men

Post by mattyman » December 5th, 2017, 4:42 pm

Hi everyone, been a long time since I've posted here though I feel I should because I've got something that I'm passionate about. Just want to drop a little rant about MGTOW.

The main reason I make the namesake assertion is the damaging messages about women and what they find attractive; e.g. you're worthless unless you fit x, y, z, women want to sleep with an 'alpa' and enslave a 'beta', all women are heartless reptiles, not to be trusted etc. For guys who're younger and perhaps haven't had much experience, those cynical messages can be downright depressing and discouraging, and can also encourage frustrated men to blame women for their problems. Younger men may not have the wisdom, critical thinking skills and experience to challenge the cynical and depressing lies that are spouted.

Who posts on MGTOW?
  • Guys who've gotten out of bad relationships
  • Guys who've experienced unrequited love
  • Guy's who're frustrated because of only being seen as 'friends' by women they've found attractive
  • Sex addicts
It's understandable that guys in such a situation might feel frustrated and angry at their situation and it's understandable why they might start black-and-white thinking. I'm saying this, because this is what's behind a lot of the biased opinions that you see on MGTOW. A lot of this 'all women are leaches' narrative is simply projection, not gospel truth. People have a tendency to focus on evidence to support their negative opinions and ignore evidence to the contrary.

For any younger guys who're inexperienced, I'm telling you, don't listen to the MGTOW community's views on what women want, it won't help you. Look, people who are in happy relationships and people who have more balanced views of women don't go posting on MGTOW and PUA sites. The opinions you see are completely biased and not gospel truth. Dear young single men, the opinions that you see of women on those communities are biased, that's why they seem so cynical, dark and depressing.

Why do people turn to MGTOW?
The short answer is simple, a listening ear. The root of the problem is that mens loneliness largely goes un-acknowledged. Things like feeling invisible to women, losing hopw of finding love etc. are things that are not widely-related to. Men need a platform to be listened to and vent their frustrations but without any of the toxic depressing messages that 'all women are this'.

Most the opinions that you see of women, what they find attractive etc. are largely people's negative spins and projections as to why their own relationships didn't work out.

Now, it's true that there are lots of inequities in our society and many ways that men are treated unfairly (e.g. the ever lowering bar on what's considered sexual harrassment, discrimination against men) that do need open discussion without labelling and ad-hominem attacks. There also needs to be platforms to discuss these issues that don't have the toxic messages of the manosphere (I'd even argue that many manosphere sites perpetuate negative stereotypes about mens rights activists but that's a separate topic).

What manipulation tactics are employed?
Some people like to defend the cynical views of women, what they find attractive in a man etc. on the grounds that they're trying to help younger men not be naiive. Whilst it's true that there are plenty of bad eggs out there who will take advantage and who cannot be trusted, what's not acceptable is to attempt to brainwash young men into believing that ALL women are like that, that all women should be treated with suspicion. If you want to become wiser and discerning about manipulative women, there are better more balanced sources out there.

Another way the MGTOW community manipulates people is relying on what I call 'inverse political-correctness'; resorting to name-calling and labelling of people who's opinions they don't agree with, such as labelling them mangina. They claim to be against feminism and pro free speech but are guilty of exactly the same suppression of free speech that they accuse feminist communities of, they're hypocrites.

Another thing is that they try to claim that ALL opinions from women of what women find attractive are not to be trusted, that women tell you what youn want to hear. They also try to claim that anything that sounds remotely palatable (balanced) is lies. Why is this? They're banking on the fact that you don't have the critical thinking skills or evidence to contradict anything they're saying.

To wrap up
Manosphere communities like MGTOW, ROK and others can be potentially damaging to younger men for the reasons I've stated above; for the biased views of women. If you're young and single, some of the things you might hear about women on those sites are pretty bleak and depressing. If you're young and have little evidence to the contrary or undeveloped critical thinking skills, some of what you see there could depress you and destroy your motivation to look for love, meet people and live your life. What's even more toxic is that they claim to be experts, they claim to have knowledge that is safely guarded. No they don't, they're a bunch of bitter and biased opinions. I see through the bias behind many of the opinions and I encourage you to do too.

MrMan
Veteran Poster
Posts: 2319
Joined: July 31st, 2014, 3:52 am

Re: Why MGTOW can be potentially dangerous to young men

Post by MrMan » December 5th, 2017, 6:43 pm

I feel like saying 'Amen' to some of those ideas, especially at the beginning of the message. Some of those ideas aren't unique to MGTOW, and are found throughout the manosphere. Some of the stuff on the manosphere can be rather damaging to the young and impressionable. Web pages where men talk about raping or beating women while other men treat that like it's a normal thing isn't healthy reading for the mind.

Even on this site, some people have the idea that all women in America or the UK or wherever they are from would make bad partners, that there are no women to date in the US, none are available. That's too extreme. I think some cultures are better suited for training women to be good wives in the US, but that doesn't mean there isn't some section of the bell curve that would make decent wives.

If an individual man wants to be celibate for life, that's fine. But telling everyone that marriage is a bad thing for men, no matter who you are, is too extreme. There is way too much divorce, and there are laws skewed against men in the west, but there are also plenty of healthy marriages that stay together. A very large minority of the population are divorced, but the rest of the population who has gotten married are still married, and some of those have good marriages.

His name escapes me, but I watched a LiveLeak of a young man, maybe 19 or 20 or so, who made a VLog before going to a mall and shooting a bunch of people up, and he sounded like someone right off the manosphere.

Something I noticed about some of the MGTOWs is like they are gender reversed radical feminists. Some of the feminists in the 1960's considered being a wife prostitution or slavery. Some of the MGTOWs say married men are slaves. The idea that the system is against men (which has a lot of truth to it in regard to family law especially) kind of reminds me of feminist talk about 'the patriarchy.' There is a lot of rhetoric and name-calling. Some of the MGTOWs insult men who disagree with their point of view, and there is calling women names. Radical feminists would call male opponents male chauvinist pigs.

There were even some feminists who supported lesbianism and advocated it as a natural outgrowth of feminism. I haven't heard of gay MGTOWs, men who turned gay because women were so bad. But I wouldn't be surprised if we heard about that soon.

User avatar
Contrarian Expatriate
Veteran Poster
Posts: 2256
Joined: December 3rd, 2009, 6:57 am

Re: Why MGTOW can be potentially dangerous to young men

Post by Contrarian Expatriate » December 5th, 2017, 9:41 pm

What is more dangerous than MGTOW is young men being deluded into:

Falling prey to the one true love myth.
Believing the marriage is forever myth.
Not understanding the state role in subjugating men in favor of women.
Having a false and fake (blue pill) understanding of women.

Men choosing to live life in pragmatic and self-fulfilling terms is wonderful. That is MGTOW.

There are men from all circumstances and all walks of life that gravitate to MGTOW and it is exploding. You should ask yourself what it is about MGTOW that threatens your worldview so much.

Men doing what is best for them and on their terms is a wonderful message for young men. If you disagree with that, then it is you who is potentially dangerous for them.

MGTOW is not going anywhere. Get over it.
Feel free to visit my sites and to leave your respected words of wisdom:

http://thedeclineofmyamerica.blogspot.com/

http://www.youtube.com/user/ContrarianExpatriate

mattyman
Freshman Poster
Posts: 311
Joined: September 12th, 2010, 11:15 pm

Re: Why MGTOW can be potentially dangerous to young men

Post by mattyman » December 5th, 2017, 11:07 pm

MGTOW doesn't threaten me personally but some of the viewpoints and claims do cause me concerns. What I think is potentially harmful

When people start claiming that they're experts in women, especially when they make extreme claims such as ALL monogomy is bad, or ALL women find it sexy to be beaten up and treated like dirt (probably based on gross misinterpretations of people's own experiences of unrequited love) makes such opinion highly questionable. When you see people talking in extremes, you know that they're crackpots. The whole blue pill/red pill analogy is two things; it's another way of trying to label people who don't share the same viewpoint, and it's also to give a sense of superiority. To claim that if someone doesn't buy-into the extreme MGTOW understanding of women, what they find attractive, and relationship advice (as if it's the only source of wisdom there is) is a bit like AA and the 12-step monopoly claiming that it's the only treatment for alcohol addiction.

The common rhetoric that marriage and long term relationships are a lie. Sure, some people may feel that it is not for them, some people maybe concerned that younger men maybe naiive and at risk of getting into bad relationships, and at risk of getting f***ed over. Whilst this is a valid point it's wrong to claim that all long term relationships are destined to fail, to brainwash impressionable young men into expecting the very worst from women, to try and to try and make them disillusioned with women. Going to elaborate lengths to try and brainwash young men to be disillusioned with women and convinced that there's no-one out there.

Another piece of rhetoric we hear from the manosphere is the claim that anyone who doesn't aspire to live a life of promiscuity and banging chicks is spreading a dangerous message. I think this claim has it's origins from men who've had experiences of unrequited love or who have been cheated on (their love interest going for a 'bad' boy). When that happens, people come up with all sorts of explanations, often negatively biased by anger. When you get a load of people feeling like that, they come up with the worst, all women are the same type explanations. To then go ahead and claim (using bogus evo psych arguments) that all women want that and that people who preach this are experts is hard to take seriously. Any opinion that is extreme is hard to see as expert opinion. Look, do doctors have to constantly brag how much of an expert they are in medicine? Do they have to go round parading how everyone else is wrong and they are right? Some of the opinions you see on this matter sound like the sorts of things zealots say, not balanced individuals.

If you want balanced views on what women find attractive, plenty more balanced and cynicism-free sources exist

https://www.youtube.com/user/HayleyQuinnXx

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TN3_urefvk4

User avatar
Cornfed
Elite Upper Class Poster
Posts: 5891
Joined: August 17th, 2012, 5:22 am

Re: Why MGTOW can be potentially dangerous to young men

Post by Cornfed » December 5th, 2017, 11:14 pm

mattyman wrote:
December 5th, 2017, 11:07 pm
MGTOW doesn't threaten me personally but some of the viewpoints and claims do cause me concerns. What I think is potentially harmful

When people start claiming that they're experts in women, especially when they make extreme claims such as ALL monogomy is bad, or ALL women find it sexy to be beaten up and treated like dirt (probably based on gross misinterpretations of people's own experiences of unrequited love) makes such opinion highly questionable. When you see people talking in extremes, you know that they're crackpots.
The thing is that the females aren't so much the problem as the system. Since almost all females in the West are subject to the same system, almost all females tend to suck as wives. It would be as if the government unconditionally paid employees as much or more to stay at home than to do their jobs. In that case you would expect the employees to either quit or be shitty and demanding employees, not because of anything to do with them but because of the incentives they are presented with.

User avatar
Contrarian Expatriate
Veteran Poster
Posts: 2256
Joined: December 3rd, 2009, 6:57 am

Re: Why MGTOW can be potentially dangerous to young men

Post by Contrarian Expatriate » December 5th, 2017, 11:28 pm

mattyman wrote:
December 5th, 2017, 11:07 pm
When people start claiming that they're experts in women, especially when they make extreme claims such as ALL monogomy is bad, or ALL women find it sexy to be beaten up and treated like dirt (probably based on gross misinterpretations of people's own experiences of unrequited love) makes such opinion highly questionable. When you see people talking in extremes, you know that they're crackpots. The whole blue pill/red pill analogy is two things; it's another way of trying to label people who don't share the same viewpoint, and it's also to give a sense of superiority. To claim that if someone doesn't buy-into the extreme MGTOW understanding of women, what they find attractive, and relationship advice (as if it's the only source of wisdom there is) is a bit like AA and the 12-step monopoly claiming that it's the only treatment for alcohol addiction.
None of that is MGTOW, that is PUA. You seem to be mixing up those concepts. I am MGTOW, but I reject PUA as business models from guys looking to make money off of men inexperienced with women. This is not MGTOW at all, quite the contrary.

Just because both are parts of the Manosphere, people tend to conflate the two but they are different.
mattyman wrote: The common rhetoric that marriage and long term relationships are a lie. Sure, some people may feel that it is not for them, some people maybe concerned that younger men maybe naiive and at risk of getting into bad relationships, and at risk of getting f***ed over. Whilst this is a valid point it's wrong to claim that all long term relationships are destined to fail, to brainwash impressionable young men into expecting the very worst from women, to try and to try and make them disillusioned with women. Going to elaborate lengths to try and brainwash young men to be disillusioned with women and convinced that there's no-one out there.
This one is more accurate, but you are off a bit. MGTOW do reject marriage, but not because of the women. It is because of the SYSTEM that confers huge power to the woman and the state over the man. Many men become broke and broken due to marriage in the West so MGTOW are generally anti-marriage, not anti-female.
mattyman wrote: Another piece of rhetoric we hear from the manosphere is the claim that anyone who doesn't aspire to live a life of promiscuity and banging chicks is spreading a dangerous message. I think this claim has it's origins from men who've had experiences of unrequited love or who have been cheated on (their love interest going for a 'bad' boy). When that happens, people come up with all sorts of explanations, often negatively biased by anger. When you get a load of people feeling like that, they come up with the worst, all women are the same type explanations. To then go ahead and claim (using bogus evo psych arguments) that all women want that and that people who preach this are experts is hard to take seriously. Any opinion that is extreme is hard to see as expert opinion. Look, do doctors have to constantly brag how much of an expert they are in medicine? Do they have to go round parading how everyone else is wrong and they are right? Some of the opinions you see on this matter sound like the sorts of things zealots say, not balanced individuals.
I would not call that MGTOW at all. Some younger MGTOW like to sow their wild oats, older MGTOW like myself are more into self-improvement, health, wealth, and travel.

You are also reading men ranting when they are in the Red Pill Rage phase when they realize that all they were programmed to believe about relationships and women is false. They grow out of that phase and focus on themselves later. That is not a MGTOW thing, that is a Red Pill thing.

If you want to get a truer picture of MGTOW focus on Rollo Tomassi (and his 3 books), Turd Flinging Monkey, Ronin Man, Barbarrossa, Sandman, Misandry Today, and the larger content creators. There are others like Angry MGTOW who are not representative of most MGTOW so you have to be careful of letting those few taint your views. I would also direct you towards Yohan on this site who is one of the wise elders of MGTOW and has been active for many years. Whatever you do, ignore the MGTOWs on Reddit which is out of control and not reflective of the larger lifestyle.

To be sure, some MGTOW to dislike women, especially those in the West. That is their choice and usually a consequence from bad experiences. Who are we to discount that?

I appreciate your questioning MGTOW, but it is more about you as an individual male, not some dogmatic blather from the fringe players.

www.MGTOW.com
Feel free to visit my sites and to leave your respected words of wisdom:

http://thedeclineofmyamerica.blogspot.com/

http://www.youtube.com/user/ContrarianExpatriate

MrMan
Veteran Poster
Posts: 2319
Joined: July 31st, 2014, 3:52 am

Re: Why MGTOW can be potentially dangerous to young men

Post by MrMan » December 6th, 2017, 3:37 am

My thoughts when reading this isn't that it isn't all 'MGTOW' per se, but it's a part of general 'manosphere philosophy.' CE calls it 'Red Pill.' So-called 'Red Pill' philosophy may be the way to describe it.

But, on the other hand, these are also ideas that seem pretty common among MGTOW, so most of it might rightly be categorized as MGTOW.

One of the big problems I see with MGTOW is the cultural aspect. It can be rather crass, negative, and rude. Not all of them are that way. But you see a lot of that. I can think of one polite person I've interacted with who calls himself MGTOW. But it seems like a conversation on the topic turns into the MGTOW proponent insulting the one who disagrees with him and his wife or girlfriend. It's as if they can shame men into agreeing with them. If young men get recruited through these means, I'd imagine the movement could end up with a large number weakly principled men who could accept a whole philosophy like this based on manipulation techniques.

I actually think there are a lot of really valid insights from the manosphere, so called 'red pill' philosophy on a number of matters. A lot of the complaints about the family court systems in the west, the damage caused by feminism, the way women are and how they think seem to be valid.

The ideological response to it of being totally against marriage is too extreme. It is okay if a man chooses not to marry. But if their movement is really about men going their own way, then they should respect that for some men, 'their own way' is to get married and have a family, if that is what they want. But it is good to know about the risks, social problems in society, etc. before doing so.

I am not surprised to hear a man who has gone through a bitter divorce talking about how women are bad, or even how marriage is bad. I've seen that and I can relate to it. It's the same sort of thing as women who've been through a bitter divorce or other relationship issues talking about how bad men are. Sometimes, the woman was the type to choose a bad guy, or maybe she drove him away with her behavior. The same thing happens in reverse.

But it surprised me a little bit to find out that there were young men in their 20's who accepted this whole philosophy. I know, with the decline in sexual morality after the sexual revolution, the rise of feminism, and other social changes, there are young men who just want sex, short term relationships, one night stands, or non-permanent live in situations. But being against other people getting married is too extreme.

User avatar
Contrarian Expatriate
Veteran Poster
Posts: 2256
Joined: December 3rd, 2009, 6:57 am

Re: Why MGTOW can be potentially dangerous to young men

Post by Contrarian Expatriate » December 6th, 2017, 5:24 am

MrMan wrote:
December 6th, 2017, 3:37 am
My thoughts when reading this isn't that it isn't all 'MGTOW' per se, but it's a part of general 'manosphere philosophy.' CE calls it 'Red Pill.' So-called 'Red Pill' philosophy may be the way to describe it.

But, on the other hand, these are also ideas that seem pretty common among MGTOW, so most of it might rightly be categorized as MGTOW.

One of the big problems I see with MGTOW is the cultural aspect. It can be rather crass, negative, and rude. Not all of them are that way. But you see a lot of that. I can think of one polite person I've interacted with who calls himself MGTOW. But it seems like a conversation on the topic turns into the MGTOW proponent insulting the one who disagrees with him and his wife or girlfriend. It's as if they can shame men into agreeing with them. If young men get recruited through these means, I'd imagine the movement could end up with a large number weakly principled men who could accept a whole philosophy like this based on manipulation techniques.

I actually think there are a lot of really valid insights from the manosphere, so called 'red pill' philosophy on a number of matters. A lot of the complaints about the family court systems in the west, the damage caused by feminism, the way women are and how they think seem to be valid.

The ideological response to it of being totally against marriage is too extreme. It is okay if a man chooses not to marry. But if their movement is really about men going their own way, then they should respect that for some men, 'their own way' is to get married and have a family, if that is what they want. But it is good to know about the risks, social problems in society, etc. before doing so.

I am not surprised to hear a man who has gone through a bitter divorce talking about how women are bad, or even how marriage is bad. I've seen that and I can relate to it. It's the same sort of thing as women who've been through a bitter divorce or other relationship issues talking about how bad men are. Sometimes, the woman was the type to choose a bad guy, or maybe she drove him away with her behavior. The same thing happens in reverse.

But it surprised me a little bit to find out that there were young men in their 20's who accepted this whole philosophy. I know, with the decline in sexual morality after the sexual revolution, the rise of feminism, and other social changes, there are young men who just want sex, short term relationships, one night stands, or non-permanent live in situations. But being against other people getting married is too extreme.
MGTOW are keenly aware of how marriage is inimical to the interests of men, especially in the Anglosphere. If you find that MGTOW don't respect you as a married man or ridicule you, you should probably find out WHY instead of whining about their treatment of you.

MGTOW are strong men to have resisted and overcome the onslaught of anti-male social programming. Married men, by definition, are unwitting victims of that onslaught. So don't expect MGTOW to coddle you with kind words. They will likely smash you over the head with "I told you so" when your moment of awakening finally comes afterwhich there will be men to ease your cognitive dissonance and torment.

But blue pilled cucks, especially the married ones, are enemies of men's true interests. They therefore should be treated accordingly.
Feel free to visit my sites and to leave your respected words of wisdom:

http://thedeclineofmyamerica.blogspot.com/

http://www.youtube.com/user/ContrarianExpatriate

MrMan
Veteran Poster
Posts: 2319
Joined: July 31st, 2014, 3:52 am

Re: Why MGTOW can be potentially dangerous to young men

Post by MrMan » December 6th, 2017, 5:27 pm

Contrarian Expatriate wrote:
December 6th, 2017, 5:24 am
MGTOW are keenly aware of how marriage is inimical to the interests of men, especially in the Anglosphere. If you find that MGTOW don't respect you as a married man or ridicule you, you should probably find out WHY instead of whining about their treatment of you.
It's pretty obvious: a lack of interpersonal ethics combined with being brainwashed by an extreme philosophy. MGTOWs online don't usually really know the people they attack and ridicule. It's online discussion. One post that violates groupthink can lead to a barrage of insults.
MGTOW are strong men to have resisted and overcome the onslaught of anti-male social programming.
MGTOW don't have to fit a specific type. They can also be hurt men who find some people to be miserable with. I saw a video from a man who really wanted to get married and had a family, but chose not too because he was scared of the risks, listing all the typical MGTOW and manosphere concerns about the legal system. Is that strength, or just being afraid to take a risk. There are some really good risk-reduction strategies. Not getting married in the Anglosphere or the west is one of them. Depending on who you marry and who you live, that can pretty much gut the entire MGTOW argument as far as data goes. All that's left is ideology.

User avatar
Contrarian Expatriate
Veteran Poster
Posts: 2256
Joined: December 3rd, 2009, 6:57 am

Re: Why MGTOW can be potentially dangerous to young men

Post by Contrarian Expatriate » December 6th, 2017, 5:55 pm

MrMan wrote:
December 6th, 2017, 5:27 pm
MGTOW don't have to fit a specific type. They can also be hurt men who find some people to be miserable with. I saw a video from a man who really wanted to get married and had a family, but chose not too because he was scared of the risks, listing all the typical MGTOW and manosphere concerns about the legal system. Is that strength, or just being afraid to take a risk. There are some really good risk-reduction strategies. Not getting married in the Anglosphere or the west is one of them. Depending on who you marry and who you live, that can pretty much gut the entire MGTOW argument as far as data goes. All that's left is ideology.
I have seen videos of men (and have met a few too) who admitted they WISH they were not married and only felt free to discuss it among MGTOW. There is no risk reduction strategy for a practice that is rotten to the core for modern men.

Most men are smarter than you think, the problem is they lack wherewithal to counter peer pressure, family pressure, and social programming until it is too late.

One of the MGTOW luminaries is Bob Lewis (aka DDJ) who wrote The Feminist Lie: It Was Never About Equality who was married TWICE before it all hit him. As a legal professional, he now advises men against marriage in the strongest of terms and he is widely respected. He uses the moniker Misandry Today on Twitter and YouTube.
Feel free to visit my sites and to leave your respected words of wisdom:

http://thedeclineofmyamerica.blogspot.com/

http://www.youtube.com/user/ContrarianExpatriate

MrMan
Veteran Poster
Posts: 2319
Joined: July 31st, 2014, 3:52 am

Re: Why MGTOW can be potentially dangerous to young men

Post by MrMan » December 7th, 2017, 4:42 am

Contrarian Expatriate wrote:
December 6th, 2017, 5:55 pm
I have seen videos of men (and have met a few too) who admitted they WISH they were not married and only felt free to discuss it among MGTOW.
If he showed his face on a YouTube video and said he wish he'd never gotten married... and he was married, that was probably a rather foolish thing to do. I can understand men saying that if their wives cheat or divorce them, etc. It's venting. But it's not the sort of thing to make a video about, with their own face, and their own voice.
There is no risk reduction strategy for a practice that is rotten to the core for modern men.
Again, a lot of your arguments don't even apply once you get out of certain countries. From your self-centered hedonistic philosophy, you can make some hedonistic arguments in favor of staying single and sleeping around. But if everyone does that, that's bad for everyone, including people who behave like you. So it's an irrational philosophy. It's kind of like lying. The liar might find that he gets some short-term benefits from lying. But if everyone lied all the time, it would be really, really bad for everyone. Even the economy would shut down.
Most men are smarter than you think, the problem is they lack wherewithal to counter peer pressure, family pressure, and social programming until it is too late.
Maybe they are smarter than you think and they can see the benefits of certain things that their families support, things that allow them to fit into existing social institutions.

mattyman
Freshman Poster
Posts: 311
Joined: September 12th, 2010, 11:15 pm

Re: Why MGTOW can be potentially dangerous to young men

Post by mattyman » December 7th, 2017, 4:59 am

Why I might sound angry
All my life I've absorbed these messages that no womn would be attracted to a guy like me (fitting the stereotypical 'beta' male). This has has since been disproven, even with experiences of an anglo women. I met this girl who was the 'type' the MGTOW brigade said would never be interested in a guy like me (e.g. pretty, long hair, nice, feminine), at the time living at home and unemployed. When I met her she actually asked if I had her number. When I told her I was living at home, she said she was happy I had family, and regarding the job situation at the time, she was in the same boat herself. No, it doesn't apply that the more 'hot' someone is, the more unforgiving they are.

Yes, I had a great chance for a relationship. I will acknowledge that the only thing I didn't do, was tell her that I liked (boy did I have the hots) her or make the same moves back that she made to me. That's it, that's all that there was too it. It's a lesson learned. Classic nice guy situation.

Now, what makes me very angry about MGTOW and the manosphere in general is how people encourage men to reflect on experiences similar to mine in not so healthy ways. They try to make men conclude that the only reason that they didn't succeed was because they're complete pussies, that they need to change the very fabric of who they are as a person; e.g. that they should become a domineering moron rather than become genuinely happy in expressing who they really are.

I know from my experience, that all I failed to do was to simply convey the fact that I liked her, THAT'S IT! I learn from that. The MGTOW community and the manosphere in general would conclude that someone in my position wasn't forward enough but, they would take it to extremes. They would say that you should have treated them mean. No, I should have simply told her I like her, move in for the kiss, that's all.Their views of what's expressing your romantic interest is what concerns me. Advocating beating women up and playing the treating them mean persona in the hope that they'd fall for you. This is basket case nice-guy-ism and non-genuineness. Dude, if that's not you and if the woman you're with isn't attracted to that sort of rubbish, isn't that selling out yourself?

What MGTOW and the manosphere don't do is they don't teach men how to address and overcome the specific fears about how to tell someone you like them, or what's stoppin you from moving in for the kiss. The do a terrible, terrible, TERRIBLE job of addressing such barriers.

I am angry because prior to those experiences, those messages I was receiving from the net personally made me very depressed and de-motivated to meet new people at one point. Although I see through it for the BS that it is, I am very angry at that and I know that many others are negatively affected in the same way.

Peace.

User avatar
Contrarian Expatriate
Veteran Poster
Posts: 2256
Joined: December 3rd, 2009, 6:57 am

Re: Why MGTOW can be potentially dangerous to young men

Post by Contrarian Expatriate » December 7th, 2017, 4:16 pm

mattyman wrote:
December 7th, 2017, 4:59 am
Why I might sound angry
All my life I've absorbed these messages that no womn would be attracted to a guy like me (fitting the stereotypical 'beta' male). This has has since been disproven, even with experiences of an anglo women. I met this girl who was the 'type' the MGTOW brigade said would never be interested in a guy like me (e.g. pretty, long hair, nice, feminine), at the time living at home and unemployed. When I met her she actually asked if I had her number. When I told her I was living at home, she said she was happy I had family, and regarding the job situation at the time, she was in the same boat herself. No, it doesn't apply that the more 'hot' someone is, the more unforgiving they are.

Yes, I had a great chance for a relationship. I will acknowledge that the only thing I didn't do, was tell her that I liked (boy did I have the hots) her or make the same moves back that she made to me. That's it, that's all that there was too it. It's a lesson learned. Classic nice guy situation.

Now, what makes me very angry about MGTOW and the manosphere in general is how people encourage men to reflect on experiences similar to mine in not so healthy ways. They try to make men conclude that the only reason that they didn't succeed was because they're complete pussies, that they need to change the very fabric of who they are as a person; e.g. that they should become a domineering moron rather than become genuinely happy in expressing who they really are.

I know from my experience, that all I failed to do was to simply convey the fact that I liked her, THAT'S IT! I learn from that. The MGTOW community and the manosphere in general would conclude that someone in my position wasn't forward enough but, they would take it to extremes. They would say that you should have treated them mean. No, I should have simply told her I like her, move in for the kiss, that's all.Their views of what's expressing your romantic interest is what concerns me. Advocating beating women up and playing the treating them mean persona in the hope that they'd fall for you. This is basket case nice-guy-ism and non-genuineness. Dude, if that's not you and if the woman you're with isn't attracted to that sort of rubbish, isn't that selling out yourself?

What MGTOW and the manosphere don't do is they don't teach men how to address and overcome the specific fears about how to tell someone you like them, or what's stoppin you from moving in for the kiss. The do a terrible, terrible, TERRIBLE job of addressing such barriers.

I am angry because prior to those experiences, those messages I was receiving from the net personally made me very depressed and de-motivated to meet new people at one point. Although I see through it for the BS that it is, I am very angry at that and I know that many others are negatively affected in the same way.

Peace.
Again you are conflating "MGTOW and the Manosphere in general" which is inappropriate. The Manosphere consists of:

MGTOW
Pick Up Artists
Neo-Masculinists (Roosh V's Crowd)
Men's Rights Activists

The fact that you think they are all one and the same or agree with each other is very telling. MGTOW is the largest and the fastest growing and it is the collective "Do what you want, we really don't care" crowd. PUAs and Roosh might care about your romantic troubles, but MGTOW don't.

The problem that you alluded to can be best addressed with the Mode One approach by Alan Roger Currie. You should buy his book and learn how being upfront and direct with your romantic interest is the best way to go. Currie is not a Manospherian, but he is greatly respected by many.

I would ask you to look into the MGTOW figures I listed before to have a better understanding of it because right now, it is quite evident that you really don't just yet. Right now, you are ranting at MGTOW because some random men online contributed to your negative situation. MGTOW don't really care about your romantic life, you do you. MGTOW just want men to remain free of the legal and financial traps society entangles men into.
Feel free to visit my sites and to leave your respected words of wisdom:

http://thedeclineofmyamerica.blogspot.com/

http://www.youtube.com/user/ContrarianExpatriate

User avatar
Contrarian Expatriate
Veteran Poster
Posts: 2256
Joined: December 3rd, 2009, 6:57 am

Re: Why MGTOW can be potentially dangerous to young men

Post by Contrarian Expatriate » December 7th, 2017, 4:24 pm

MrMan wrote:
December 7th, 2017, 4:42 am
Contrarian Expatriate wrote:
December 6th, 2017, 5:55 pm
I have seen videos of men (and have met a few too) who admitted they WISH they were not married and only felt free to discuss it among MGTOW.
If he showed his face on a YouTube video and said he wish he'd never gotten married... and he was married, that was probably a rather foolish thing to do. I can understand men saying that if their wives cheat or divorce them, etc. It's venting. But it's not the sort of thing to make a video about, with their own face, and their own voice.
There is no risk reduction strategy for a practice that is rotten to the core for modern men.
Again, a lot of your arguments don't even apply once you get out of certain countries. From your self-centered hedonistic philosophy, you can make some hedonistic arguments in favor of staying single and sleeping around. But if everyone does that, that's bad for everyone, including people who behave like you. So it's an irrational philosophy. It's kind of like lying. The liar might find that he gets some short-term benefits from lying. But if everyone lied all the time, it would be really, really bad for everyone. Even the economy would shut down.
Most men are smarter than you think, the problem is they lack wherewithal to counter peer pressure, family pressure, and social programming until it is too late.
Maybe they are smarter than you think and they can see the benefits of certain things that their families support, things that allow them to fit into existing social institutions.
Your arguments are getting weaker over time. They almost resemble the catty arguments a defeated female would use :lol:
Feel free to visit my sites and to leave your respected words of wisdom:

http://thedeclineofmyamerica.blogspot.com/

http://www.youtube.com/user/ContrarianExpatriate

MrMan
Veteran Poster
Posts: 2319
Joined: July 31st, 2014, 3:52 am

Re: Why MGTOW can be potentially dangerous to young men

Post by MrMan » December 8th, 2017, 1:56 am

CE, is that the best you can come up with?

If Roosh is a 'neo-masculinist', who is a 'masculinist'?

Post Reply
  • Similar Topics
    Replies
    Views
    Last post

Return to “Rants and Raves”