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Can women actually write software?

Discussions computers, internet and mobile technology (cell phones, smart phones, iPads).

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Cornfed
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Post by Cornfed » July 11th, 2013, 2:11 am

publicduende wrote:Well this is another one of your myths. Lots of very good developers work on open source of free of charge projects released on the various Google Code, CodeProject, Codeplex etc. But don't forget that the same developers have to pay their bills, which means they work on commercial projects, more often than not in large corporations. I know plenty of very good developers who work, like me, in various financial institutions and love to work evenings and weekends on various pet projects, websites or mobile apps chiefly, most of which are regularly released to the public free of charge or in the open source community.
Perfectly consistent with what I said. Some corporate programmers are good and work on OS projects, but despite the fact that many corporate programmers are female, virtually none of them work on OS projects. Conclusion: virtually no female programmers are any good. QED.




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publicduende
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Post by publicduende » July 11th, 2013, 9:08 am

Cornfed wrote:
publicduende wrote:Well this is another one of your myths. Lots of very good developers work on open source of free of charge projects released on the various Google Code, CodeProject, Codeplex etc. But don't forget that the same developers have to pay their bills, which means they work on commercial projects, more often than not in large corporations. I know plenty of very good developers who work, like me, in various financial institutions and love to work evenings and weekends on various pet projects, websites or mobile apps chiefly, most of which are regularly released to the public free of charge or in the open source community.
Perfectly consistent with what I said. Some corporate programmers are good and work on OS projects, but despite the fact that many corporate programmers are female, virtually none of them work on OS projects. Conclusion: virtually no female programmers are any good. QED.
You're still not proving anything mate. Many good developers are active in the open source community, but that doesn't mean all developers who don't do OS stuff (including most women) are no good! Do you need a couple of Venn diagrams to understand this simple logic?

I think working and delivering to the open source community requires a certain mindset: you must be an idealistic person, enjoy collaborating with large and ever-changing teams dispersed the world over, and most importantly have plenty of spare time and the willingness to spend it indoor coding away. Bar some rare example of uber-geeks, women want to spend their spare time doing something else, including the things we men find trivial and boring: shopping, taking care of ourselves, reading books, cooking. This even before we start accounting with the time they spend being mothers, wives and take care of the house!

As you can see there are reasons why women aren't generally too preoccupied with proving their professional worth outside the designated office hours. None of those reason makes them less capable than men.

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Cornfed
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Post by Cornfed » July 11th, 2013, 10:22 am

publicduende wrote:I think working and delivering to the open source community requires a certain mindset: you must be an idealistic person, enjoy collaborating with large and ever-changing teams dispersed the world over, and most importantly have plenty of spare time and the willingness to spend it indoor coding away. Bar some rare example of uber-geeks, women want to spend their spare time doing something else, including the things we men find trivial and boring: shopping, taking care of ourselves, reading books, cooking. This even before we start accounting with the time they spend being mothers, wives and take care of the house!
Couldn't have put it better myself.

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Post by lmd12358 » July 11th, 2013, 6:55 pm

Cornfed wrote:
publicduende wrote:I think working and delivering to the open source community requires a certain mindset: you must be an idealistic person, enjoy collaborating with large and ever-changing teams dispersed the world over, and most importantly have plenty of spare time and the willingness to spend it indoor coding away. Bar some rare example of uber-geeks, women want to spend their spare time doing something else, including the things we men find trivial and boring: shopping, taking care of ourselves, reading books, cooking. This even before we start accounting with the time they spend being mothers, wives and take care of the house!
Couldn't have put it better myself.
It is a fair point that many(definitely not all, but many) women DO enjoy shopping cooking, etc. However you could argue the same point for men. Many if not most men enjoy sports, video games(males claim the video game industry is male dominated and most consider girls 'fake gamers'), watching TV, etc. You might not consider them to be 'trivial and boring', but they are just as much of a time-suck as shopping, taking care of ourselves, etc. You cannot honestly say men spend more time coding because they do less 'trivial' activities. Totally incorrect. There are some activities that are socially more of a woman's job like taking care of the children, but that is actually changing, slowly for sure, but it is getting more and more common for men to take of the kids. Plus there are many women who are single and don't have kids or whose kids are off at college and don't rely on their mothers anymore. So while being a mother/wife may effect some women, it most definitely does not effect all women.

"you must be an idealistic person, enjoy collaborating with large and ever-changing teams dispersed the world over, and most importantly have plenty of spare time and the willingness to spend it indoor coding away"

I don't see how this is a 'male' thing. Why can women not be idealistic or enjoy working with ever-changing teams? And willingness to be inside coding has nothing to do with gender, but personality.

Your points are such BS

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Post by lmd12358 » July 11th, 2013, 6:55 pm

Cornfed wrote:
publicduende wrote:I think working and delivering to the open source community requires a certain mindset: you must be an idealistic person, enjoy collaborating with large and ever-changing teams dispersed the world over, and most importantly have plenty of spare time and the willingness to spend it indoor coding away. Bar some rare example of uber-geeks, women want to spend their spare time doing something else, including the things we men find trivial and boring: shopping, taking care of ourselves, reading books, cooking. This even before we start accounting with the time they spend being mothers, wives and take care of the house!
Couldn't have put it better myself.
It is a fair point that many(definitely not all, but many) women DO enjoy shopping cooking, etc. However you could argue the same point for men. Many if not most men enjoy sports, video games(males claim the video game industry is male dominated and most consider girls 'fake gamers'), watching TV, etc. You might not consider them to be 'trivial and boring', but they are just as much of a time-suck as shopping, taking care of ourselves, etc. You cannot honestly say men spend more time coding because they do less 'trivial' activities. Totally incorrect. There are some activities that are socially more of a woman's job like taking care of the children, but that is actually changing, slowly for sure, but it is getting more and more common for men to take of the kids. Plus there are many women who are single and don't have kids or whose kids are off at college and don't rely on their mothers anymore. So while being a mother/wife may effect some women, it most definitely does not effect all women.

"you must be an idealistic person, enjoy collaborating with large and ever-changing teams dispersed the world over, and most importantly have plenty of spare time and the willingness to spend it indoor coding away"

I don't see how this is a 'male' thing. Why can women not be idealistic or enjoy working with ever-changing teams? And willingness to be inside coding has nothing to do with gender, but personality.

Your points are such BS

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Post by lmd12358 » July 11th, 2013, 6:57 pm

Cornfed wrote:
lmd12358 wrote:This is one of the most sexist and frankly annoying posts I have ever seen.

First off, being a male does not give you some special advantage in writing computer software. None.
Being a man means that I have ~ 6 times the grey matter of you insect-brained females and don't think any hysterical hormone-driven emotions I happen to have define reality. That is an advantage in creative pursuits.

This has no scientific standing whatsoever and I'd love to see your proof. And 'i read it in an article at one point' is never proof.
I can list many, many women that I know, personally and professionally, who are excellent programmers.
Fine, then you should be able to answer an earlier question in this thread and list a few females who are well known coders of open source software. That is the acid test of course, because while whorporations can hire female "programers" just because they have a v****a, to be well known in open source software you have to actually write workable code. You could also list innovative programs the females you mention have actually written, rather than just talk about what they are nominally hired to do.

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Post by lmd12358 » July 11th, 2013, 6:57 pm

Cornfed wrote:
lmd12358 wrote:This is one of the most sexist and frankly annoying posts I have ever seen.

First off, being a male does not give you some special advantage in writing computer software. None.
Being a man means that I have ~ 6 times the grey matter of you insect-brained females and don't think any hysterical hormone-driven emotions I happen to have define reality. That is an advantage in creative pursuits.

This has no scientific standing whatsoever and I'd love to see your proof. And 'i read it in an article at one point' is never proof.
I can list many, many women that I know, personally and professionally, who are excellent programmers.
Fine, then you should be able to answer an earlier question in this thread and list a few females who are well known coders of open source software. That is the acid test of course, because while whorporations can hire female "programers" just because they have a v****a, to be well known in open source software you have to actually write workable code. You could also list innovative programs the females you mention have actually written, rather than just talk about what they are nominally hired to do.

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publicduende
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Post by publicduende » July 11th, 2013, 7:39 pm

lmd12358 wrote:
Cornfed wrote:
publicduende wrote:I think working and delivering to the open source community requires a certain mindset: you must be an idealistic person, enjoy collaborating with large and ever-changing teams dispersed the world over, and most importantly have plenty of spare time and the willingness to spend it indoor coding away. Bar some rare example of uber-geeks, women want to spend their spare time doing something else, including the things we men find trivial and boring: shopping, taking care of ourselves, reading books, cooking. This even before we start accounting with the time they spend being mothers, wives and take care of the house!
Couldn't have put it better myself.
It is a fair point that many(definitely not all, but many) women DO enjoy shopping cooking, etc. However you could argue the same point for men. Many if not most men enjoy sports, video games(males claim the video game industry is male dominated and most consider girls 'fake gamers'), watching TV, etc. You might not consider them to be 'trivial and boring', but they are just as much of a time-suck as shopping, taking care of ourselves, etc. You cannot honestly say men spend more time coding because they do less 'trivial' activities. Totally incorrect. There are some activities that are socially more of a woman's job like taking care of the children, but that is actually changing, slowly for sure, but it is getting more and more common for men to take of the kids. Plus there are many women who are single and don't have kids or whose kids are off at college and don't rely on their mothers anymore. So while being a mother/wife may effect some women, it most definitely does not effect all women.

"you must be an idealistic person, enjoy collaborating with large and ever-changing teams dispersed the world over, and most importantly have plenty of spare time and the willingness to spend it indoor coding away"

I don't see how this is a 'male' thing. Why can women not be idealistic or enjoy working with ever-changing teams? And willingness to be inside coding has nothing to do with gender, but personality.

Your points are such BS
What BS, I was simply stating the obvious, as some of the posters here read feminist conspiracy in every single fact of life that affects either, or both genders. It is a fact that women would rather spend their free time taking care of their families or themselves, shopping or involved in some sort of leisurely outdoor activity. I see this happen everywhere in the world, and across different generations as well. Assuming there are very few full-time open source programmers, if you're a professional developer like me, you should know that putting after-office hours to code up something decent that the wider community will benefit free of charge requires not only idealism (which, agreeing with you, is indeed cross-gender) but the time and willingness to spend evenings and weekend sitting in front of your PC, writing code, reading tech reference books, solving challenges, interacting with your peers via forums and e-mail, etc.

Women just don't tend to have the predisposition, the time and willingness to do just that in their spare time. The call of duty from being mothers, wives, or just vain(er) individuals, is just too strong. That, to me, is a quite self-evident proof of why the OS community doesn't sport so many ladies. Within the boundaries of office time, where one's best effort is rewarded by a monthly paycheck, it's a different ball game, where women are indeed a minority, yet do thrive and can show their talents.

Just to wrap what has become a tired thread. I don't agree that the participation in the open source community is a such an important marker of quality of women as software programmers. If one is smart, he or she needs to feel free to show his/her potential as and when he/she fits. In fact, some of the best dev/architects I know in my industry spend little more than their office hours coding, and have a very rich social/personal life beyond work.

zboy1
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Post by zboy1 » July 11th, 2013, 7:53 pm

lmd12358 is a female troll. I've banned her from this forum.

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Post by gsjackson » July 11th, 2013, 11:12 pm

zboy1 wrote:lmd12358 is a female troll. I've banned her from this forum.
How did you know on the female part? Was it her use of the word "annoying." That was a real red flag for me. The word is right up there with "creepy" in the AW arsenal of disdain.

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Cornfed
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Post by Cornfed » July 12th, 2013, 1:50 am

lmd12358 wrote:
Cornfed wrote:
lmd12358 wrote:This is one of the most sexist and frankly annoying posts I have ever seen.

First off, being a male does not give you some special advantage in writing computer software. None.
Being a man means that I have ~ 6 times the grey matter of you insect-brained females and don't think any hysterical hormone-driven emotions I happen to have define reality. That is an advantage in creative pursuits.

This has no scientific standing whatsoever and I'd love to see your proof. And 'i read it in an article at one point' is never proof.
While this article is vomitsomely politically correct, it does prove the point about grey matter.
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/20 ... 100142.htm

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publicduende
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Post by publicduende » July 12th, 2013, 10:17 pm

Cornfed wrote:While this article is vomitsomely politically correct, it does prove the point about grey matter.
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/20 ... 100142.htm
What exactly are you trying to prove here, my deranged friend? :)

From the first paragraph...

The study shows women having more white matter and men more gray matter related to intellectual skill, revealing that no single neuroanatomical structure determines general intelligence and that different types of brain designs are capable of producing equivalent intellectual performance.

What you find "vomitsomely PC" is probably the main conclusion of the article, that using gray/white matter ratio as a marker of intelligence is...inconclusive. So a petite woman whose brain size is maybe 80 or 90% that of a giant man is doomed to be dumber than said giant? No evidence, either factual or experiential!

Call me a new-age idealist, but I like to lean on the "spiritualist" interpretation of conscience and human intellectual abilities as given by an immaterial soul connected to said brain no more no less the way a power cord to its source, or an antenna tuned to a radio station. With that in mind (no pun intended), it's blatantly obvious that a small radio tuned to a quality station is better than a massive one only picking up random noise.

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Re: Can women actually write software?

Post by mand38 » April 30th, 2018, 6:16 pm

Me too, I know few girls that are software engineers...

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Re: Can women actually write software?

Post by igorpalkoo » June 25th, 2018, 10:35 am

opaque ...
it's developed by a woman voiptimecloud. Why such an attitude? a modern woman in the process of evolution is a very intelligent man. It is not necessary at this stage of life - to speak about women!

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Re: Can women actually write software?

Post by publicduende » June 27th, 2018, 9:40 am

Just to tie two "beloved" themes together... Come here to the Philippines and walk into the average software house, like I did a few times with one of my Clients, a large conglomerate with bases in Manila (BGC), Cebu and Davao. At least, and I mean at least 30% of the kids I saw in there were girls.

Funnily enough, historically the first batch of programmers of automatic computing machines were mostly women. Whether Ada Lovelace has the primate of being the first known "computer programmer" (her friendship and mail exchange with Charles Babbage is proven, her involvement in the development of his Analytical Engine, less so) or not, it is a fact that most programmers assigned to writing logical code for the first electronic computers like the Colossus at Bletchley Park were women.

Image

Other historical "mothers" of modern computing include Grace Hopper (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grace_Hopper).

If I may hazard, the discipline started to become a male-dominated one when many of the projects that grew the computer industry enormously were started by, or assigned to, the military or large corporations like Rand or IBM, which overwhelmingly employed men. Another reason could be that, with increasing complexity and integration of digital computers, the skills required to operate computers were less and less to do with mathematics and logic and more with electronic engineering and "informatics". The latter being study areas where far more men than women were present.

I can't think of any other reasons why women, from being well represented, became a tiny minority all of a sudden.

Things are now changing, as more and more girls embrace STEM degrees and they are happy to venture into the T(echnology) and E(ngineering) as well as the S(cience) and M(athematics). We are likely to see the number of women active in computer science and software engineering increase considerably over the next couple of decades, albeit never to match the number of men.

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