Indulgence vs. self-mastery

[The Wily Fox]

If there is one thing that Satanism is known for, it is hedonism. As Anton Lavey declared in the first of the Nine Satanic Statements, “Satan represents indulgence, instead of abstinence!” And the father of modern occultism, Aleister Crowley, famously declared, “Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the law.” I believe that both these statements, especially the latter, have much deeper nuances than an initial reading might suggest. Crowley’s declaration doesn’t merely have to do with pursuing one’s deepest desire to be flogged by BDSM nuns, but also a spiritual quest to discover one’s Will — a deeper, truer manifestation of one’s being and purpose.

That aside, a surface reading of both these statements — and a cursory look at the lives of both LaVey and Crowley — suggest that Satanism and adjacent practices are very much about carnal pleasure, indulgence, and intoxication.

I’ve come to see this interpretation of Satanism to be one-sided and incomplete. We are carnal creatures, endowed by evolution with nerve endings and brain structures that offer us extraordinary pleasure. This is a beautiful thing. But as I’ve matured, both as a Satanist and a human being, I’ve also had to confront the ways in which over-indulgence has hurt me. I am now inheriting the consequences of my actions in my teens and twenties. At the same time, I am discovering the profound pleasures and fulfillment of self-discipline.

People who know of my Satanism are often surprised to learn that I never drink alcohol, take THC, or do psychedelics. I’m as dry and sober as a Southern Baptist minister pretends to be. This isn’t because these practices are wrong – they aren’t! It’s because I’ve had to learn what does and does not work for my body over time. Alcohol doesn’t agree with me, and my brain is too prone to mental illness to engage in mind-altering substances. I tried to work with THC, but it’s not my medicine. We all have to learn our limits, and I know mine.

Too often, life is seen as a choice between self-abnegation or black-out indulgence. I struggled with this dichotomy for years as a Christian. I felt perpetually torn between the extremes of indulgence and denial.

But this dichotomy is an illusion. I now believe in erasing the line between indulgence and self-mastery, hedonism and stoicism.

Done properly, the pursuit of pleasure, be it kink, drug use, or sex, becomes in themselves explorations of self-mastery and discipline. Knowing one’s self — one’s limits, boundaries, and expectations — becomes part and parcel with the experience of pleasure. If self-mastery is not practiced in the pursuit of pleasure, then those pleasures inevitably come to make us and others suffer in the future.

Conversely, self-mastery leads to its own sort of pleasure. I’m a runner, and the discipline it takes to run 5 days a week yields pleasures and euphorias that are hard to match. As I write this, I am practicing Deep Work – my daily ritual of focusing deeply on a single hard project for at least an hour. And just before my Deep Work practice, I did my daily meditation practice. Discipline and self-mastery are hard, but also deeply pleasurable and rewarding.

Indulgence requires mastery to be safely practiced, and self-mastery and discipline yield their own unique forms of pleasure. As always, I speak of my own Satanism because each Satanist will explore this dichotomy in their own unique way. But neither mastery nor pleasure, for me, are goals in and of themselves. They are both in the service of something larger: living a fulfilling Satanic life.

But that’s just me. What do you think?

[fschmidt]

The difference is time horizon. A long time horizon requires self-discipline, so here we agree. Our main difference is that I recognize that humans are tribal, so self-sacrifice for the tribe is beneficial for one's genetic success. A strong tribe will always beat selfish individuals.

You compare Satanism to Christianity without considering other options. I totally reject Christianity. I follow the Old Testament which is a guide to evolutionary success. There is no Christian self-denial in the Old Testament.

[MrMan]

The difference is time horizon. A long time horizon requires self-discipline, so here we agree. Our main difference is that I recognize that humans are tribal, so self-sacrifice for the tribe is beneficial for one's genetic success. A strong tribe will always beat selfish individuals.

You compare Satanism to Christianity without considering other options. I totally reject Christianity. I follow the Old Testament which is a guide to evolutionary success. There is no Christian self-denial in the Old Testament.

Here is some self denial:
14 After Moses had gone down the mountain to the people, he consecrated them, and they washed their clothes. 15 Then he said to the people, “Prepare yourselves for the third day. Abstain from sexual relations.”

16 On the morning of the third day there was thunder and lightning, with a thick cloud over the mountain, and a very loud trumpet blast. Everyone in the camp trembled.
(NKJV)

Three days without sex!

There is also fasting in the Old Testament.

[fschmidt]

Here is some self denial:
14 After Moses had gone down the mountain to the people, he consecrated them, and they washed their clothes. 15 Then he said to the people, “Prepare yourselves for the third day. Abstain from sexual relations.”

16 On the morning of the third day there was thunder and lightning, with a thick cloud over the mountain, and a very loud trumpet blast. Everyone in the camp trembled.
(NKJV)

Three days without sex!

There is also fasting in the Old Testament.

You are right, "self-denial" is the wrong word. I am not sure what the right word is, maybe "anti-self". Self-discipline is rational self-denial but not self-denial for its own sake. I only oppose pleasure when it causes harm, but Christians seem opposed to pleasure on principle. Prostitution and limited drug use are examples of this difference.

[MrMan]

Here is some self denial:
14 After Moses had gone down the mountain to the people, he consecrated them, and they washed their clothes. 15 Then he said to the people, “Prepare yourselves for the third day. Abstain from sexual relations.”

16 On the morning of the third day there was thunder and lightning, with a thick cloud over the mountain, and a very loud trumpet blast. Everyone in the camp trembled.
(NKJV)

Three days without sex!

There is also fasting in the Old Testament.

You are right, "self-denial" is the wrong word. I am not sure what the right word is, maybe "anti-self". Self-discipline is rational self-denial but not self-denial for its own sake. I only oppose pleasure when it causes harm, but Christians seem opposed to pleasure on principle. Prostitution and limited drug use are examples of this difference.

Judaism doesn't care for prostitution does it? Is Judaism in favor of recreational drug use?

[fschmidt]

I found the right word - "asceticism".

Judaism doesn't care for prostitution does it? Is Judaism in favor of recreational drug use?

I don't know about Judaism, but I know about the Old Testament. The Old Testament supports prostitution (Proverbs 6:26) and allows alcohol in moderation so presumably the same for other drugs.

[MrMan]

I found the right word - "asceticism".

Judaism doesn't care for prostitution does it? Is Judaism in favor of recreational drug use?

I don't know about Judaism, but I know about the Old Testament. The Old Testament supports prostitution (Proverbs 6:26) and allows alcohol in moderation so presumably the same for other drugs.

Proverbs 6:26 says, "For the levy of the prostitute is poverty, and the adulteress preys upon your very life".

That's your verse to say it allows prostitution? There are a lot of verses like that warning against going to prostitutes in the Proverbs. Going to prostitutes is bad. Adultery is worse.

If you can drink alcohol without getting drunk, do you think you should use crack, LSD or ecstasy like that? What's the point of using those drugs if it is not enough to get high?

[fschmidt]

Proverbs 6:26 says, "For the levy of the prostitute is poverty, and the adulteress preys upon your very life".

That's your verse to say it allows prostitution? There are a lot of verses like that warning against going to prostitutes in the Proverbs. Going to prostitutes is bad. Adultery is worse.

HCSB translation of Proverbs 6:26 is "For a prostitute’s fee is only a loaf of bread, but an adulteress goes after a precious life." with the point being prostitution is a valid alternative to adultery.

If you can drink alcohol without getting drunk, do you think you should use crack, LSD or ecstasy like that? What's the point of using those drugs if it is not enough to get high?

Alcohol in moderation means not drinking all the time, not never getting a little drunk. I see nothing wrong with occasional drug use, and I have tried most drugs.

Christians have an amazing talent for avoiding any issues that really matter. Like sluts, dysgenics, divorce, no craftsmanship, etc.

[MrMan]

Proverbs 6:26 says, "For the levy of the prostitute is poverty, and the adulteress preys upon your very life".

That's your verse to say it allows prostitution? There are a lot of verses like that warning against going to prostitutes in the Proverbs. Going to prostitutes is bad. Adultery is worse.

HCSB translation of Proverbs 6:26 is "For a prostitute’s fee is only a loaf of bread, but an adulteress goes after a precious life." with the point being prostitution is a valid alternative to adultery.

Huh? No, prostitution is bad, but adultery is worse. The Jewish Publications Society translations it differently.

Proverbs 6:26 (JPS): “For on account of a harlot one is brought to a loaf of bread, and the adulteress hunts for the precious life.”

And there are these other verses as well.
Proverbs 23:27 (JPS): “For a harlot is a deep pit, and a foreign woman is a narrow well.”
Leviticus 19:29 (JPS): “Do not profane your daughter by making her a harlot, lest the land fall into harlotry and the land become full of lewdness.”
Deuteronomy 23:17-18 (JPS): “There shall be no harlot of the daughters of Israel, neither shall there be a sodomite of the sons of Israel. Thou shalt not bring the hire of a harlot, or the price of a dog, into the house of the LORD thy God for any vow; for even both these are an abomination unto the LORD thy God.”
Leviticus 21:9 (JPS): “And the daughter of any priest, if she profane herself by playing the harlot, she profaneth her father: she shall be burnt with fire.”

Israelite women were forbidden to be prostitutes, right? It's not treated as severely as adultery with the clear sentence, unless she is from a priestly family or is getting married off as a virgin.

Alcohol in moderation means not drinking all the time, not never getting a little drunk. I see nothing wrong with occasional drug use, and I have tried most drugs.

You have a different understanding of moderation than I do. Did you try the drugs before or after you posted about wanting people to die.

Christians have an amazing talent for avoiding any issues that really matter. Like sluts, dysgenics, divorce, no craftsmanship, etc.

I address the topic of divorce and sluts quite a bit. I don't talk much about divorce on this forum given the audience. No craftsmanship? Seems less applicable given the hyperspecialization in our society where a small percentage are in craftsman type roles-- artists, artisans, and the and designers engineers who actually handle designing products and break down into micro-tasks for others to do.