Chaos Theory: Do coincidences exist? Does everything happen for a reason? Is there a divine order?

[Winston]

Do u think everything happens for a reason? Do coincidences exist?

Haven't u thought that maybe there is a divine order to everything? And that there is no randomness? Google chaos theory. Theres scientific evidence that everything has a deep order to it.

I saw a video that said that no game is worth playing without some randomness and uncertainty. Including the game of life.

No one wants to play a game thats totally predictable. Not even God. A game like that is not worth playing and is no fun.

But what appears random to u could be order from higher above right? Ur mind cannot see everything.

You know the wisest people who seek spiritual truth the longest usually conclude that coincidences dont exist. Isnt it possible they are right? If the most experienced seekers come to that conclusion then it could be true. Even many greek philosophers said that. Its not just a new age cliche.

The romans called the goddess of fortune "Fortuna". She is a woman and can bless u or curse u as she feels. She is flighty and unpredictable.

Machiavelli also said fortune is a woman and if she comes you gotta grab her and take control of her. Lol

The greeks and romans were more realists. They admitted that most of life was not in our control. Medieval Europeans agreed. Its only in America that the belief that one is in control of everything came about.

Ancient cultures also believed in Murphy's law. That often the universe tempts u by letting u think u got what u dream of finally, only to pull the rug out from under you and get a laugh out of watching you reeling over in shock and disillusionment. That happens so often it cannot be a coincidence and must be the work of a practical joker like the joker in batman.

If the universe allows this then there must be trickster deities.

Well thats what the ancient babylonians and chaldeans believed. That there are trickster deities that enjoy teasing and taunting us and making us disappointed and f***ing with us and getting a kick out of it.

Ancient cultures saw this and were not confined by the organized religions that we have today. They could follow the data and reality more freely.

Did u know that? So the ancients knew about Murphy's law and saw it clearly too. For the universe does like to play trickster games on us it seems. The ancient explanation involving trickster deities (like Loki in nordic mythology or Q in star trek the next generation) seems to make the most sense to me.

But americans have no explanation for Murphy's law except to either invoke God's punishment for sin, or Satans doing (as Christians believe), or by postulating "the law of attraction" from new age beliefs, which state that negative thoughts cause murphys law.

However theres no linear correlation or consistent logic to all that, because firstly, good people can suffer unfairly, and secondly, some without negative thoughts can come to a tragic end too. Such as the famed female aviator Amelia Earhart, who was super confident and fearless even on her last flight. And the Titanic passengers and builders too of course, who were confident the ship was unsinkable. Etc.

Thus these law of attraction believers and new agers never have an explanation for all that and never even bring it up. Because it doesnt fit their model of karma or the law of attraction. And since they do not wish to change or update their beliefs, they prefer to just ignore contrary data instead.

So in essence they are no more open minded than Christians and Atheists even though they think they are. In reality new age is just another fixed belief system and hive mind that its believers cannot question or think critically about.

[Aron]

@Winston

Chaos theory does not prove that there are no coincidences. It's about fractals, random patterns like tornadoes or snowflakes shapes which are not evidence of intent. It's just the unfolding of natural patterns. It is not a structure where you can actually show intent to exist like for example the design structure of a computer or a program.

This idea that there are no coincidences is just echoing the Calvinist belief of Predestination, it says everything happens for some good reason therefore it is somehow just fine that so many people in the world are just starving to death, dying of disease, or getting killed outright. This invokes a victim blaming mentality where anyone that gets horribly ruined must have deserved it due to karma from a past life or some bad excuse like that.

Could some coincidences not actually be coincidences, possibly so, but some are simply coincidences and have no good meaning behind them at all. It would also work the other way around, even if someone could plan out what they will do in their next life before reincarnating and try to set up circumstances so that certain things will happen, there would be no guarantee of it working as intended, that's just logical.

I agree that the law of attraction doesn't make sense, this concept that people cannot think negative thoughts without attracting negative events is just a mind limiter placed on them so they don't stop believing in whatever New Age beliefs they are told to accept, just like the Christians/Muslims who are told all critical thinking about their religion is Sin punishable by burning forever.

The idea that bad things do indeed happen and there just is no good reason for them leads to a natural desire to actually stop said events and improve the society rather than sitting there and saying it's all fate. If anything, it is a similar mental limiter to that which Materialists impose on themselves, assured that they have no free will and therefore losing much motivation to take action as their mind tries to deconstruct the very concept behind this. Materialists are also hit with a double whammy as not only can they not recognize the possibility of action to improve the world they deny the natural intuition that comes to their minds, informing them that the world is indeed in a very bad state. Accepting that the state of things is actually wrong is conditional upon believing there is some better state possible, yet Materialists believe all morality is subjective and therefore none of their impressions are actually correct to any degree. Of course, many atheists will ignore this contradiction and go on to believe the world is in a bad state anyways, trying to make utilitarian arguments based on subjective morality, but I would bet that on the whole this belief does put a major dent in the actual will of people overall to change anything.

To get to the point here, no, quite a lot of things are not in perfect order and are not meaningful. And many meaningful things can have their meaning utterly undermined by a bad turn of events. If humanity goes extinct due to a nuclear war that is pretty clearly horrible news, and would then make an endless stretch of time rendered all for nothing to a large extent. Which is all the more reason why people need to stop believing in fate or that everything happens for a good reason, this is too passive of a mentality.

[Winston]

This quote below by Einstein is wise and makes sense and supports my theory and observation too. Often what we think of as coincidences are later revealed to have a purpose after all. Many great spiritual seekers, teachers and authors come to realize this and have noted it in their books and lectures. Perhaps they are right after all in saying that there are no coincidences.

However, in a dualistic universe, both chaos and order must exist because they both define each other by their opposite. Plus no one, not even God, would want to play a game where the outcome was known from the beginning. Every game needs an element of risk, chance and uncertainty otherwise it's not worth playing. I'm sure the gods feel the same way. So it could be that chaos exists at the physical level, but at a higher dimension or level it does not. The universe can also be a paradox of being chaotic yet all be in divine order at the same time, just like everything can come from nothing (a void) which cosmologists now say is possible after all and can be demonstrated mathematically.

[Aron]

@Winston

However, in a dualistic universe, both chaos and order must exist because they both define each other by their opposite. Plus no one, not even God, would want to play a game where the outcome was known from the beginning. Every game needs an element of risk, chance and uncertainty otherwise it's not worth playing. I'm sure the gods feel the same way. So it could be that chaos exists at the physical level, but at a higher dimension or level it does not. The universe can also be a paradox of being chaotic yet all be in divine order at the same time, just like everything can come from nothing (a void) which cosmologists now say is possible after all and can be demonstrated mathematically.

Why do you think the universe must match the model of a voluntary game? As if nothing can ever go wrong? No. Of course things can go wrong, life is not a game, and plenty of things go wrong where the victims did not in some way or another volunteer for it.

[Winston]

Some documentaries about Chaos Theory and how chaos leads to order, which means that true randomness may not exist after all.

PBS documentary on Chaos Theory.



Australian documentary on Chaos Theory.



Video about Chaos Theory and the Butterfly Effect.

[Winston]

Short intro video about Chaos Theory and Butterfly Effect and whether they are real or not.

[Winston]

@Winston

However, in a dualistic universe, both chaos and order must exist because they both define each other by their opposite. Plus no one, not even God, would want to play a game where the outcome was known from the beginning. Every game needs an element of risk, chance and uncertainty otherwise it's not worth playing. I'm sure the gods feel the same way. So it could be that chaos exists at the physical level, but at a higher dimension or level it does not. The universe can also be a paradox of being chaotic yet all be in divine order at the same time, just like everything can come from nothing (a void) which cosmologists now say is possible after all and can be demonstrated mathematically.

Why do you think the universe must match the model of a voluntary game? As if nothing can ever go wrong? No. Of course things can go wrong, life is not a game, and plenty of things go wrong where the victims did not in some way or another volunteer for it.

Because from a higher perspective it seems to be a cosmic game. Depends on who you listen to. A Zen Buddhist and Eastern Philosophy lecturer named Alan Watts talked about life being a cosmic game and illusion.

Of course games involve chance and risk. No one, even the gods, want to play a totally predictable game. Would you?

Also, many of the top spiritual truth seekers conclude after many years or decades of searching that "everything happens for a reason" and that "there are no coincidences" and that "everything is in divine order from a higher level" etc. Since many of these people are smarter than us, more experienced than us, wiser than us, and have a higher consciousness than us, we gotta consider that perhaps they are right, even if we don't want to or disagree. We gotta consider that they are right and not assume that we are right about everything and that we know it all.

Try to humble yourself and learn from others. Don't pretend to know everything. You gotta control and suppress that big atheist ego of yours.

Here are some short but eloquent and poetic videos with lecture excerpts by Alan Watts about how life is just a game, and the universe is a game of the gods. They are very funny and witty. Enjoy them. And please try to learn from others. Understand that others may know and experience things you don't, so you don't know everything.







His longer lectures about the game of life.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FissDJG1x8w

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4dXlLpsU0ao

[Winston]

Also Aron,
Here is a long video by Illuminatus Pythagoras about how the world is a cosmic game of light vs. dark by God and Satan. This is kind of long, but it's very deep and philosophical and interesting. And it makes sense in its own way. As you can see, I follow a lot of people who are out there. Are they right or wrong? Hard to say. But truth tends to be stranger than fiction. And you gotta try to learn from others perspectives, not be a know it all like most asshole atheists are.

[Aron]

@Winston

I do not think there are no coincidences, but at the same time there do seem to be some false coincidences along the lines of what you and other spiritualist types argue. So there is some degree of a point you have there. But that doesn't mean it's always going to be part of the plan. For example some spiritualists claim that coincidences can occur due to some form of pre planning prior to reincarnation, or that some benevolent higher forces can guide people into a beneficial situation unbeknownst to them But such a thing could not possibly be true of literally every event. As it is all too clear many things do go very wrong.

Try to humble yourself and learn from others. Don't pretend to know everything. You gotta control and suppress that big atheist ego of yours.

Actually I am not an 'atheist' in the normal sense at least, I am not a Materialist, and I believe consciousness to be a real thing. Although i do not believe christianity or other religions claim of some omnipotent god. It seems like an afterlife and 'paranormal' phenomenon exist to some extent, but that doesn't mean i believe all the claims of supernatural events.

I don't think I've been unfair in responding to this, the idea that everything a game ultimately seems biased as it essentially presumes that there is no such thing as real violence or real evil, and that the worst things can get is failure in a game. It really does seem like it's more about making people feel good than actually coming to a true conclusion. And i haven't really seen evidence that everything is suddenly a game, with no evidence it seems more realistic that the world just isn't a game and many things are indeed quite bad.

I haven't gotten around to watching that 2 hour long video, could you summarize the basic ideas? For example it says that everything is a cosmic game but what are the main reasons they think so?