Deep Observations by Mitchell and Winston about US Society

[Winston]

I was talking to Mitchell (Steve Hoca's last interview guest) today about some really deep topics. We seem to be on the same wavelength, so we have incredibly deep discussions every time we talk, and have similar speculations as well. I'll go over some of what we talked about here. Hope some of you can relate.

First, I posed this question to him:

"I wonder if we (me, you, the HA folks) live in a different world or dimension that most people do. I mean, how is it that most people do not complain about the things that we do? How come they don't see the obvious things we see in America? How are they able to hook up and get girlfriends or get married in a social environment that's unfriendly, toxic, hostile, distant and standoffish, where if you say hi to strangers they think you're a creep? In such a hostile and unfriendly environment, how do people hook up? Yet you do see couples all around you in the USA, as if most people don't have the problems that we do.

So how to explain this?"

Mitchell and I both agreed that while we may share the same physical space as other people, we are almost in a different world than them, in that we are on a wavelength/frequency. Have any of you pondered about this?

Some recent discoveries in quantum physics indicate that the physical universe is in your mind, and doesn't exist when a mind is not observing it. So our thoughts would affect our reality. If that's so, then we are all in different worlds, metaphysically speaking. So I'm wondering if we are in different dimensions of reality as well, created by our perceptions or consciousness?

I sort of get this sense that most people in America have drank this "kool aid" that changes them, or possesses them, so that they do not see the things that we do or complain about them. But somehow we haven't drank this kool aid, so we see things differently than others. Does that make sense?

Here is a quote I found by Swiss psychologist Eric Fromm that illustrates what I'm talking about:

"The sick individual finds himself at home with all other similarly sick individuals. The whole culture is geared to this kind of pathology. The result is that the average individual does not experience the separateness and isolation the fully schizophrenic person feels. He feels at ease among those who suffer from the same deformation; in fact, it is the fully sane person who feels isolated in the insane society - and he may suffer so much from the incapacity to communicate that it is he who may become psychotic." - Eric Fromm, Swiss Psychologist (The Anatomy of Human Destructiveness)

And this parable of the Poison Well connotates the same concept:

"The Parable of the Poisoned Well:

There was once a wise king who ruled over a vast city. He was feared for his might and loved for his wisdom. Now in the heart of the city, there was a well whose waters were pure and crystalline from which the king and all the inhabitants drank. When all were asleep, an enemy entered the city and poured seven drops of a strange liquid into the well. And he said that henceforth all who drink this water shall become mad.

All the people drank of the water, but not the king. And the people began to say, "The king is mad and has lost his reason. Look how strangely he behaves. We cannot be ruled by a madman, so he must be dethroned."

The king grew very fearful, for his subjects were preparing to rise against him. So one evening, he ordered a golden goblet to be filled from the well, and he drank deeply. The next day, there was great rejoicing among the people, for their beloved king had finally regained his reason."

What do you all think?

Also, we both hypothesize that the land we are on has a certain consciousness of its own, like a personality of sorts. And this consciousness likes certain people, but not others, which is why different people have different experiences in the same places and cultures.

Look at it this way: There are many layers of consciousness. The trillions of cells in our bodies are alive and have a certain level of consciousness. Likewise, we are all "cells" on an organism called "Earth", which also has a consciousness of its own (aka the Gaia theory). Our solar system and sun is like a cell in a galaxy of billions of stars (cells). So at each level, microscopic and macroscopic, there are layers of consciousness.

So, in the same way, each culture, location, or area of land, has a certain vibe or consciousness of its own. If it doesn't like you, you will have bad luck there. It will feel like everything is going against you. People will give you bad vibes too. And you will feel like the energy there is repressed and stagnated. But if it does like you, then you will feel more of a synergy and things and people will help you and go your way.

Does that make sense? This is our hypothesis and what we speculate is going on here. It explains why different people can have vastly different experiences in the same places and cultures.

Another deep thing we discussed is this:

We don't feel that the dysfunctional problems in America are simply due to physical factors alone, such as the government, culture, media, corporate corruption or the toxic chemicals in food/water. There seems to be something deeper going on here - something which f***s people up and turns them into toxic/radioactive personalities (including newly arrived immigrants) and inverts things upside down so that bad is good and good is bad, crazy is sane and sane is crazy, truth is lies and lies are truth, etc.

I speculate that America may be a "cursed country" in that our founding fathers raped the sacred land and stole it from the Native Americans. Under the Native Americans, the land was sacred and holy. They tried to live in harmony with it. But the white settlers raped and desecrated it, and wiped out most of the Native American tribes. This may have released some type of "curse" or disruption in the energy field or consciousness of the lands in America.

I say this because people I know who have been to India tell me that immediately when you go there, you can feel the sacredness and holiness of the land there. (I guess not all people are able to feel this, only those who are attuned to such things can) Different countries and their lands do have different vibes for sure. When I first landed in Russia in 2002, I sensed a totally different vibe than in America, for sure. It was much more alive and passionate.

Anyway, this is all my speculation but it sort of makes sense when you look deeper. It's hard to talk about this with most people though, because most people are practical (especially men and especially NE Asians) and do not see things on this kind of level.

What do you all think? Does any of this make sense?

One more thing:

Personality conflicts: America vs. other countries

I've also realized that personality conflicts are far more prevalent in America than in other countries. As you know, most Americans can't be roommates or travel together because their personalities are toxic in that they cannot stand each other for very long. Even friends can't tolerate each other for long if they spend too much time together, even a few consecutive days. Why is that? That's not the norm in other countries.

In America, people get on each other's nerves more than they do in other countries for some reason. Friends, families, couples, colleagues, and employers/employees in the USA all suffer highly from personality conflicts, much more than they do in Asian countries. That's for sure. It's as if the American personality/ego/psyche is somehow more toxic and radioactive than people in the rest of the world, relatively that is.

In Asia, roommates seem to get along harmoniously without effort. Friends who travel together don't get on each other's nerves like they do in the US. And families do not shout at each other everyday like many families do in America do. People are more humble and modest, and do not seem to have toxic personalities to the degree that people in America do.

Any of you notice this? Why is this?

[xiongmao]

If you believe quantum physics then the our thoughts aren't necessarily in our brains at all. Which might explain out of body experiences.

And I wonder about alternative Universes. Like whether my suddenly leaving China created an alternative Universe for me, or for everybody on the planet.

[Jester]

............
Mitchell and I both agreed that while we may share the same physical space as other people, we are almost in a different world than them, in that we are on a wavelength/frequency. Have any of you pondered about this?

Some recent discoveries in quantum physics indicate that the physical universe is in your mind, and doesn't exist when a mind is not observing it. So our thoughts would affect our reality. If that's so, then we are all in different worlds, metaphysically speaking. So I'm wondering if we are in different dimensions of reality as well, created by our perceptions or consciousness?

I sort of get this sense that most people in America have drank this "kool aid" that changes them, or possesses them, so that they do not see the things that we do or complain about them. But somehow we haven't drank this kool aid, so we see things differently than others. Does that make sense?

Here is a quote I found by Swiss psychologist Eric Fromm that illustrates what I'm talking about:

"The sick individual finds himself at home with all other similarly sick individuals. The whole culture is geared to this kind of pathology. The result is that the average individual does not experience the separateness and isolation the fully schizophrenic person feels. He feels at ease among those who suffer from the same deformation; in fact, it is the fully sane person who feels isolated in the insane society - and he may suffer so much from the incapacity to communicate that it is he who may become psychotic." - Eric Fromm, Swiss Psychologist (The Anatomy of Human Destructiveness)

And this parable of the Poison Well connotates the same concept:

The Parable of the Poisoned Well:

“There was once a wise king who ruled over a vast city. He was feared for his might and loved for his wisdom. Now in the heart of the city, there was a well whose waters were pure and crystalline from which the king and all the inhabitants drank. When all were asleep, an enemy entered the city and poured seven drops of a strange liquid into the well. And he said that henceforth all who drink this water shall become mad.

All the people drank of the water, but not the king. And the people began to say, "The king is mad and has lost his reason. Look how strangely he behaves. We cannot be ruled by a madman, so he must be dethroned."

The king grew very fearful, for his subjects were preparing to rise against him. So one evening, he ordered a golden goblet to be filled from the well, and he drank deeply. The next day, there was great rejoicing among the people, for their beloved king had finally regained his reason."


What do you all think?

Also, we both hypothesize that the land we are on has a certain consciousness of its own, like a personality of sorts. And this consciousness likes certain people, but not others, which is why different people have different experiences in the same places and cultures.

Look at it this way: There are many layers of consciousness. The trillions of cells in our bodies are alive and have a certain level of consciousness. Likewise, we are all "cells" on an organism called "Earth", which also has a consciousness of its own (aka the Gaia theory). Our solar system and sun is like a cell in a galaxy of billions of stars (cells). So at each level, microscopic and macroscopic, there are layers of consciousness.

So, in the same way, each culture, location, or area of land, has a certain vibe or consciousness of its own. If it doesn't like you, you will have bad luck there. It will feel like everything is going against you. People will give you bad vibes too. And you will feel like the energy there is repressed and stagnated. But if it does like you, then you will feel more of a synergy and things and people will help you and go your way.

Does that make sense? This is our hypothesis and what we speculate is going on here. It explains why different people can have vastly different experiences in the same places and cultures.

Another deep thing we discussed is this:

We don't feel that the dysfunctional problems in America are simply due to physical factors alone, such as the government, culture, media, corporate corruption or the toxic chemicals in food/water. There seems to be something deeper going on here - something which f***s people up and turns them into toxic/radioactive personalities (including newly arrived immigrants) and inverts things upside down so that bad is good and good is bad, crazy is sane and sane is crazy, truth is lies and lies are truth, etc.

I speculate that America may be a "cursed country" in that our founding fathers raped the sacred land and stole it from the Native Americans. Under the Native Americans, the land was sacred and holy. They tried to live in harmony with it. But the white settlers raped and desecrated it, and wiped out most of the Native American tribes. This may have released some type of "curse" or disruption in the energy field or consciousness of the lands in America.

I say this because people I know who have been to India tell me that immediately when you go there, you can feel the sacredness and holiness of the land there. (I guess not all people are able to feel this, only those who are attuned to such things can) Different countries and their lands do have different vibes for sure. When I first landed in Russia in 2002, I sensed a totally different vibe than in America, for sure. It was much more alive and passionate.

Anyway, this is all my speculation but it sort of makes sense when you look deeper. It's hard to talk about this with most people though, because most people are practical (especially men and especially NE Asians) and do not see things on this kind of level.

What do you all think? Does any of this make sense?

One more thing:

Personality conflicts: America vs. other countries

I've also realized that personality conflicts are far more prevalent in America than in other countries. As you know, most Americans can't be roommates or travel together because their personalities are toxic in that they cannot stand each other for very long. Even friends can't tolerate each other for long if they spend too much time together, even a few consecutive days. Why is that? That's not the norm in other countries.

In America, people get on each other's nerves more than they do in other countries for some reason. Friends, families, couples, colleagues, and employers/employees in the USA all suffer highly from personality conflicts, much more than they do in Asian countries. That's for sure. It's as if the American personality/ego/psyche is somehow more toxic and radioactive than people in the rest of the world, relatively that is.

In Asia, roommates seem to get along harmoniously without effort. Friends who travel together don't get on each other's nerves like they do in the US. And families do not shout at each other everyday like many families do in America do. People are more humble and modest, and do not seem to have toxic personalities to the degree that people in America do.

Any of you notice this? Why is this?

I agree with your observations, Mr. W.

MY question is - how do **I** change? How do **I** become **LESS** "toxic and radioactive"?

[Winston]

I agree with your observations, Mr. W.

MY question is - how do **I** change? How do **I** become **LESS** "toxic and radioactive"?

Good point. Even a lot of us probably have toxic/radioactive personalities and we don't know it.

So have you had the same deep speculations before Jester?

Do you think America could be cursed? Could there be a deeper reason for the dysfunction than just physical factors?

Mitchell told me that in Japan, many people smoke a lot, yet they don't get lung cancer. Why is that? Is there something deeper going on that's f***ing up America?

[AnonymousAmerican]

I just think that the US has been f***ed since the beginning. as you said, the Anglos murdered most of the native americans and now, it's time to pay for their sins of killing those people. In Mexico, the Iberians mixed with the natives and integrated their culture with the Hispanic to create modern Mexican culture. The Anglos didn't do such things in Canada and USA, rather, they were in an all-out destroy and conquer effort. that type of mentality backfired as it was based on greed, and greed always consumes the person who succumbs to greed. I think that's why the US is so f***ed up, the results of succumbing to materialism, greed, and selfishness, which those three things are heavily encouraged in the US ("greed is good," "big is better," "generation me")

[Jester]

I agree with your observations, Mr. W.

MY question is - how do **I** change? How do **I** become **LESS** "toxic and radioactive"?

Good point. Even a lot of us probably have toxic/radioactive personalities and we don't know it.

So have you had the same deep speculations before Jester?

Do you think America could be cursed? Could there be a deeper reason for the dysfunction than just physical factors?

Mitchell told me that in Japan, many people smoke a lot, yet they don't get lung cancer. Why is that? Is there something deeper going on that's f***ing up America?

We're not cursed because of what "we" did in the past. If this was the case, Japan would be cursed for wartime atrocities, Turks would be the unhappiest people in the world, etc.

No. We are cursed by the choices we make every day.

Cars run on gasoline, we run on fear.

It starts when a child is sent out to a school run by child-hating secularists. The child has to learn to cope, or else die inside. Coolness swiftly becomes everything. The social competition is savage. No one dares to be authentic, because being authentic means ostracism and emotional death.

Fear becomes a habit. Being a bully means you're at least not a victim, whew. Or if you're a victim, you have to fake that you're okay. You learn to be a poser.

Daily we choose to fit in, to collaborate, to participate, to curse ourselves anew.
We operate on fear. We create our own living hell.

[Winston]

We're not cursed because of what "we" did in the past. If this was the case, Japan would be cursed for wartime atrocities, Turks would be the unhappiest people in the world, etc.

No. We are cursed by the choices we make every day.

Cars run on gasoline, we run on fear.

It starts when a child is sent out to a school run by child-hating secularists. The child has to learn to cope, or else die inside. Coolness swiftly becomes everything. The social competition is savage. No one dares to be authentic, because being authentic means ostracism and emotional death.

Fear becomes a habit. Being a bully means you're at least not a victim, whew. Or if you're a victim, you have to fake that you're okay. You learn to be a poser.

Daily we choose to fit in, to collaborate, to participate, to curse ourselves anew.
We operate on fear. We create our own living hell.

You can't compare Japan's atrocities with that of the US. First, Japan has reaped bad karma. Its people are highly depressed, suicidal and miserable inside. Ask Ladislav. He's live there and seen the true soul of the Japanese deep down.

Second, Japan on committed atrocities for a few years in Asia. The US has been doing it for 200 years.

The rest of your post is spot on and one of the best I've ever seen.

Why can't both be causes? I mean, the curse/bad karma of America, and what you described as well?

[Winston]

I just talked to Mitchell again. He told me something interesting. He said that the real decline of American culture actually begin in the early 1980's. You see, in the 1970's, if you were creative and unique, or an explorer type, you were considered cool. People admired you. The culture during that era was more free-spirited. (Mitchell grew up in the 70's, so he knew what it was like back then)

It was during the Reaganomic era of the 80's, that that all changed. Life became all about materialistic goals, achievement and competition. People became more shallow, competitive, materialistic, greedy and socially cliquish as well. Movies like "Wall Street (1987)" epitomized this.

I think this is true. Even though the 80's are considered "the good old days" in terms of music and TV shows, I don't remember it as being much friendlier than today. People still seemed kind of hostile, shallow, cliquish, exclusive, fake and not down to earth. I definitely wasn't happy back then. I did not feel accepted or liked. And I felt persecuted even though I did nothing wrong. (Someone once told me that everyone he knew who grew up in the 80's ended up having issues and baggage in life)

And the suburbs were isolating to the point of making me insane since there was no internet to preoccupy me during all my free time, so I had nothing to do, and was always lonely and bored and wishing I was somewhere else, or out having fun with people.

In fact, the last time I remember that people seemed normal in America was 1982-3. After that, the culture and values in America went downhill into materialism and greed to the extreme. From 1984 on, people seemed very mean. I don't know if that was because I moved to Fremont, CA, or because times had changed, or both.

Any of you notice this too?

[AnonymousAmerican]

I just talked to Mitchell again. He told me something interesting. He said that the real decline of American culture actually begin in the early 1980's. You see, in the 1970's, if you were creative and unique, or an explorer type, you were considered cool. People admired you. The culture during that era was more free-spirited. (Mitchell grew up in the 70's, so he knew what it was like back then)

It was during the Reaganomic era of the 80's, that that all changed. Life became all about materialistic goals, achievement and competition. People became more shallow, competitive, materialistic, greedy and socially cliquish as well. Movies like "Wall Street (1987)" epitomized this.

I think this is true. Even though the 80's are considered "the good old days" in terms of music and TV shows, I don't remember it as being much friendlier than today. People still seemed kind of hostile, shallow, cliquish, exclusive, fake and not down to earth. I definitely wasn't happy back then. I did not feel accepted or liked. And I felt persecuted even though I did nothing wrong. (Someone once told me that everyone he knew who grew up in the 80's ended up having issues and baggage in life)

And the suburbs were isolating to the point of making me insane since there was no internet to preoccupy me during all my free time, so I had nothing to do, and was always lonely and bored and wishing I was somewhere else, or out having fun with people.

In fact, the last time I remember that people seemed normal in America was 1982-3. After that, the culture and values in America went downhill into materialism and greed to the extreme. From 1984 on, people seemed very mean. I don't know if that was because I moved to Fremont, CA, or because times had changed, or both.

Any of you notice this too?

My father came here to the US in 1978, and he told me that in the 1980s, the women of USA were basically the same as they were today, a bunch of materialistic, shallow bitches and that they would never consider marrying a lowly immigrant like him (which is why he sticked to his own kind and married a Mexican woman and made me).

[Jester]

I just talked to Mitchell again. He told me something interesting. He said that the real decline of American culture actually begin in the early 1980's. You see, in the 1970's, if you were creative and unique, or an explorer type, you were considered cool. People admired you. The culture during that era was more free-spirited. (Mitchell grew up in the 70's, so he knew what it was like back then)

It was during the Reaganomic era of the 80's, that that all changed. Life became all about materialistic goals, achievement and competition. People became more shallow, competitive, materialistic, greedy and socially cliquish as well. Movies like "Wall Street (1987)" epitomized this.

We were a bunch of degenerates in the early 70's, but original thinking was okay. People still looked up to eccentric and outspoken individuals. There were hippies, acidheads, and even nazis in a few places. Society was sick, but not dull.

Now everyone is afraid to step out of line.

I don't see materialism as being the cause. I think rather that fearful people turn to materialism in order to insulate themselves from criticism, and avoid being seen as a loser, as discussed above. And because they are empty inside. It's all they have.

I think the societal upheavals and counterculture shattered the comfort of old beliefs.
By the mid 70's we learned that the Warren Commission had lied about the JFK assassination. Plus the assassinations of RFK, MLK and John Lennon, and the shootings of George Wallace and Ronald Reagan, left people with a creepy feeling that we were living in a Truman Show, a manipulated reality.

We cozied up to the Soviets and Red Chinese!! And lost what we fought for in Vietnam. Our leaders made it very clear that what we cared about from now on was not defeating communism, but rather trading with commies. Conservative society was beaten back, and the left was infiltrated and controlled. People were left with nothing to believe in.

The result was the "me generation" of the 70's. People focused on what they could do for themselves. People started jogging for the first time, and aerobics followed in the 80's. Hot tubs became status symbols. Californians stopped talking about Vietnam and started talking about house prices.

People seized onto material success because it's all they had left.

[Winston]

Mitchell also said that the 1950's, according to his mom, were not the happy wholesome times that people today envision.

He said that yes, family values were very strong back then, and jobs were stable in that when you got a job it was for life, and hard work was rewarded. However, the society and culture was very repressive, narrow and conformist. If you had nonconformist views or were seen as weird, you could be thrown into a mental institution. People were also very religious and patriotic and racist. They didn't question government or religion or think for themselves. Also, although people put up a facade of happiness on the outside, what happened behind closed doors was another matter.

That may be true, but I still think that the 1950's was a kinder wholesome era, because people who grew up during that decade are much more kind, wholesome, gentle and have strong traditional values. This includes my parents too, who still have the personalities of families from the 50's, kind of like the parents depicted in the 50's TV show "Leave it to Beaver".

However, what I don't get is why, if America was more wild and happy in the 1920's and 1930's, how did it all of a sudden become repressive, narrow, rigid and conformist in the 1950's?

[AnonymousAmerican]

However, what I don't get is why, if America was more wild and happy in the 1920's and 1930's, how did it all of a sudden become repressive, narrow, rigid and conformist in the 1950's?

The Great Depression and WW2 generation GI's were so exhausted from those two big events in history that they just wanted to have peace at all levels, even if it meant to be repressive.

[Jester]

.....committed atrocities.....The US has been doing it for 200 years.......

Why can't both be causes? I mean, the curse/bad karma of America, and what you described as well?

The U.S. stole land from Mexico and Spain, but most countries have done that. And the inhabitants were not abused. Even rich Mexicans got to keep their huge land grants etc. There was no ethnic cleansing, no gang rape, etc. So America is far superior morally, for example, to all the Europeans descended from Visigoths, Ostrogoths, Huns, and Romans.

In the American wars with the Indians, there were atrocities on both sides. But generally, the Indians started the atrocities. Big mistake.

You young squirts have been brainwashed that America was "stolen" from Indians. Not true. Indians thought any land they pissed on once every few years was theirs. yeah right. Like British royals and the King's Woods -- noone can hunt deer there or even gather wood. The king's exclusive use. Too damn bad, Mr. King!

Read a Zane Grey book about Lew Wetzel. Read about "Liver-Eatin Johnson", the true "Jeremiah Johnson", who over the years killed around 500 Crow Indians after Crows murdered his defenseless (Indian) wife in an inter-Indian race war.. The Indians were NOT the "good guys".

There is no curse on America because of the Indian wars. It was hard times for many.

The only major atrocities committed by U.S. troops, that I can think of, other than vicious retaliations against Indians and in the Philippines, was the firebombing of cities in Germany and Japan, and the gang rapes and mass murders that followed occupation. But this is over perhaps a span of two years, three at max. So like you said about the case of Japanese atrocities, only a few years.

So no point looking into the past sins as cause for a curse.

Russia "got away" with unspeakable crimes in Germany and elsewhere. Ghenghis Khan died in his sleep, surrounded by scores of women.

Judgement doesn't happen in this life, unless we make it happen. Good thing there is an afterlife!

[Winston]

Jester,
I don't understand your argument. How can the Indians not be the good guys? The Americans STOLE their lands and drove them off. What do you expect them to do?

Clearly the Indians were the victims and were wiped out and done wrong to. How can you debate that?

Also, how did the Native American holocaust happen exactly? I mean, I can't imagine armies of God fearing white Christians lining up millions of Indians to shoot and exterminate like Nazis. There were no Indian concentration camps. So how were millions wiped out exactly?

Could the Native American holocaust also be an exaggerated hoax?

[germanguy]

Jester,
Also, how did the Native American holocaust happen exactly? I mean, I can't imagine armies of God fearing white Christians lining up millions of Indians to shoot and exterminate like Nazis. There were no Indian concentration camps. So how were millions wiped out exactly?

Could the Native American holocaust also be an exaggerated hoax?

Why not? Indians weren´t even seen as real humans back then... Religion means nothing when such things occur. History has proven that...