Does Taiwan belong to China? Will China ever invade Taiwan?

[momopi]

1. The treaty signed between Japan and ROC government is the Treaty of Taipei:
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treaty_of_Taipei

2. Again, the CCP did not have the navy to conquer Taiwan at the time. The retreating ROC forces took most of the ships to evacuate some 2 million people from China to Taiwan. CCP/PRC was only able to build their navy later with Soviet assistance, but that is another time.

3. Mao supported Taiwan independence from Japan during WW2. This position changed after WW2 due to events in the civil war and after (read a few history books). Japan's position also changed when they wanted to import oil from China, which lead to the Shanghai communique:
http://www.mofa.go.jp/region/asia-paci/ ... int72.html


Understand that politics is like shifting sand, treaties and agreements get changed, ignored, or abrogated all the time. Example:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Budapest_M ... Assurances

[Winston]

Here is an interesting new hour long documentary about how China and the US are fighting over Taiwan, and how that struggle could result in a war this century between China and the USA. It's called "China vs USA: Empires at War". However, I think this is fearmongering though, because the US would not dare start a war with China, because China owns so much credit and real estate in the US that it could easily topple the US economy if it wanted to.

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7liiPG1mbMk[/youtube]

[Rock]

Here is an interesting new hour long documentary about how China and the US are fighting over Taiwan, and how that struggle could result in a war this century between China and the USA. It's called "China vs USA: Empires at War". However, I think this is fearmongering though, because the US would not dare start a war with China, because China owns so much credit and real estate in the US that it could easily topple the US economy if it wanted to.

Actually, war status would be a convenient excuse for the US to confiscate US Treasuries and other debt instruments and assets held by China in America. As for USA real estate, I don't think China holds that much through the government. But that too could be confiscated. Even private Chinese citizens wealth in USA is just a drop in the bucket compared to say what Jews own.

[momopi]

China does not currently have the military capability to successively invade Taiwan in short time. They need a lot more transports and it's very difficult to have a build up of invasion assets without everyone noticing (the scale would dwarf regular exercises). The outer islands (kinmen/matsu) are a different story. If China wanted to take them by force, I doubt they would last long.

[Moretorque]

China does not currently have the military capability to successively invade Taiwan in short time. They need a lot more transports and it's very difficult to have a build up of invasion assets without everyone noticing (the scale would dwarf regular exercises). The outer islands (kinmen/matsu) are a different story. If China wanted to take them by force, I doubt they would last long.

Momopi, I missed you.....

[Winston]

Alex says china will invade taiwan as soon as the US collapses. Is that true? See below.

[7/3, 1:59 PM] Alex From Venice: China has already take away all the freedom from HK people last week
[7/3, 1:59 PM] Alex From Venice: I can forsee they'll do the same to Taiwan soon
[7/3, 2:27 PM] Winston Wu: But china doesnt control taiwan. It only controls hong kong. They cannot put soldiers in taiwan.
[7/3, 3:32 PM] Alex From Venice: They can... it's called "invasion" bro. Taiwan doesn't have the military power to defend itself from a China military invasion. That's what happened to the Republic of Venice... it lost it's freedom and been annexed to the French empire, because Napoleon made a military invasion the Venice didn't have the power to fight back
[7/3, 3:32 PM] Alex From Venice: that's history
[7/3, 3:50 PM] Alex From Venice: China will invade Taiwan as soon as it won't be afraid of USA reaction
[7/3, 3:52 PM] Alex From Venice: China is acting super smart... knows very well they can't stand a war with USA, so they choose to weaken USA socially economically financially by using their "democratic" system flaws
[7/3, 3:52 PM] Alex From Venice: and leveraging corruptions all over the world
[7/3, 3:53 PM] Alex From Venice: once the western word, USA and Europe, will be in a total mess... China will use its military power with no fear
[7/3, 10:57 PM] Winston Wu: But bro. The US military is not weakened by the economy. Its still there. Remember during the great depression in 1929 the US could still garner a military for ww2 anytime it wants. Its not that easy to destroy the military.

Plus china no longer invades countries with armies. They use economic invasion and control by infiltrating and bribing foreign corporations and politicians.

Plus china does not want the world to be against them.

Also china has always sucked at war. It could not even defeat Japan in ww2. And it got whipped by the US army in the korean war at the border. Their men got slaughtered. Because the US is super talented and lucky in warfare and always has been.
[7/3, 10:57 PM] Winston Wu: Also in taiwan everyone says chinas threats are bullying and a show only. Not real. They know the mentality of china.

[Winston]

Btw if China invades Taiwan of course Taiwan will have no chance. But not just because Taiwan is small and China is big, but also because Taiwanese are totally gutless and super weak and have zero confidence. Theres no way they would fight back in a real battle. Zombies are never good in warfare either. Haha. Lol

In Taiwan you are taught to fear your enemy and always yield to your adversary in order to be safe and save your life. You are never taught to be courageous or tough against an enemy. Never.

[Moretorque]

Winston this is not the America it was in 29

[Winston]

Btw I just debated a mainland Chinese girl i met on Skype yesterday about whether Taiwan belongs to china or not. Lol. I met her by accident because she was looking for another winston wu that ran an MLM gig. Lol

She got upset and wanted to cut me off. I dont understand why chinese women take this issue so personally. Why do they give a shit whether taiwan belongs to China or not? Why is it so personal to them? Weird. Makes no sense.

I should try to post the conversation. But skype is hard to copy and paste from. I didn't try to argue with her. Just tried to expand her mind and helped her to use logic. Thats all. I was trying to open her mind a bit.

Chinese women seem petty and will drop you for trivial reasons. How can they make good wives if theyre that petty? Wise spiritual people would never take an issue like this personally or cut people off for trivial reasons. Thats so cold. I hate that. How can u marry a chinese woman if u cant even trust them? How do u trust someone whos cold and practical? Thats scary because they are cold and ruthless and calculating.

[Winston]

Does Taiwan belong to China? The Gray Area Situation and Dilemma.

Is it a bad idea to debate mainland Chinese women about whether Taiwan belongs to China or not? lol. I don't mean to argue with them, just to show them that truth is not black and white, and that truth is determined by reason and evidence, not by authority. For some reason, they take it personally and get offended if you don't agree 100 percent that Taiwan belongs to China. This is what I usually tell them, point by point. It's tactful and shouldn't be offensive, but they take it personally for some reason, as if they have a personal stake or beef in it. It's not logical though, because whether Taiwan is part of China or not does not affect their life. This means they must be the victim of some cult like brainwashing or mind control. Anyway, here are the main points I tell them. I'm posting it here so I can use it as a template to copy and paste for them to save time if I need to.

Dear Mainland Chinese woman/person:

You said to me "Of course Taiwan belongs to China" and demand that I agree. However, the truth is that the issue is more complicated than a resounding Yes or No answer. The answer, as with most complicated issues, is Yes AND No, meaning Yes in some ways and No in other ways. It's a gray area, in other words, not black or white. I don't mean to debate or argue with you about whether Taiwan belongs to China or not. I am not saying you are right or wrong. I just want to inform you of the practical and historical FACTS so you can see a bigger picture and understand that the truth is not clear cut like you think. Allow me to elaborate. Consider the following:

1. First, most people in Taiwan do not agree that Taiwan is part of China. Sorry. And in America, many people do not agree either. That's just a fact. Not my opinion. Personally I don't care about politics, but I'm just stating the facts to you. Therefore, the truth is not cut and dry, but complicated.

2. Second, you have to consider that Taiwan has a different government, laws, currency/money, passport and legislative body than mainland China. That's why there is an immigration border between China and Taiwan. Therefore, for all practical purposes, Taiwan FUNCTIONS like a separate country from China, at least in terms of functionality. That's not an opinion. It's not right or wrong. Just a basic fact. You should take it into account.

3. Third, keep in mind that before 1895, Taiwan did belong to China, before the Japanese invaded and occupied it. After 1945, Taiwan was liberated from Japan but did not integrate with the PRC government. Nor did Taiwan declare its independence either. It was stuck in limbo, in between. That's why China considers Taiwan to be a "Rebel Province". However, the key thing you have to remember is that the China that Taiwan belonged to before 1895 was the traditional Monarchy/Emperor China, NOT the Communist People's Republic of China. So it was a different China. Taiwan has never belonged to the PRC government. That's a fact, not an opinion. Therefore, the issue is more complicated than you think and in a gray area, not black and white.

4. Fourth, since Taiwan never officially declared independence, you do have a valid point that it is not an independent sovereign nation. However, remember that Taiwan never declared reunification with China either. So it's stuck in a state of limbo. That's why China considers Taiwan to be a "Rebel Province". That's why this is a gray area issue, not black or white. The reason why in 1945 after WWII ended, Taiwan didn't reunify with China is because there was a civil war at the time in China between Mao's Communist Army and the KMT faction (Kuo Ming Tang). When the KMT lose the civil war, they fled to Taiwan and set up their base of operations there. They were hoping to launch a counterstrike and retake China from the Communists, but of course that never happened. So they have been stuck in Taiwan since. Since the KMT did not accept the Communist Party, then of course they did not want their new homeland in Taiwan to reunify with China, which they perceived had been hijacked by Mao and the Communists. That is the reason Taiwan did not reunify with China after 1945.

5. Fifth, the people of Taiwan are quite different from Mainland China too, even though most are Han Chinese racially. Taiwanese are a lot more repressed, meek and non-direct. They act more like solemn Japanese people, probably as a result of 50 years of Japanese occuption. They are afraid to express themselves or make eye contact with others. They have no confidence at all and are scared of everything and fear everything. They do not walk confidently and are not blunt or direct like mainland Chinese. Their body language is quite different and more uptight, which can be observed by the way they walk and talk. They are like zombies with dead eyes and no soul or life. Personally, I do not vibe or connect with Taiwanese people at all. I like Mainland Chinese people more and find them to be more authentic, friendly and natural than Taiwanese. This should be a compliment to your people of course. But my point here is that the people of Taiwan are also quite different than Mainland China, not just the government, laws, legislature, currency and immigration.

Conclusion:

So you see, the issue is not black or white, or a resounding "Yes or No". It's in a gray area in limbo. Because Taiwan has not declared its independence, nor has it declared reintegration with China either. So it's stuck in limbo. That's why China considers Taiwan to be a "Rebel Province". A life lesson for you is that most complicated issues in life do not have a simple yes or no answer. The answer to most complex issues is Yes AND No, meaning yes in some ways and no in other ways. With most controversies, the truth is in a gray area. Truth tends to be in shades of gray, not absolute or extremist. That's a lesson in life, reality and philosophy for you.

Taiwan's Current Economic Dilemma

Here's the current economic situation and dilemma in Taiwan now. Its economy is shrinking and has been for the last 10 years since 2010. In Taiwan I see businesses and restaurants closing all the time, which is bad news for its economy. Wages have stagnated for years, and there is no economic growth. (Not that I care about such things, but people involved in business do of course.) (Even Taiwan's birthrate is the lowest in all of Asia, so something is screwed for sure.) The reason is because no major superpower is supporting Taiwan. Economic experts say that the only way to jumpstart Taiwan's economy is for it to reunify with China, which then would allow Chinese investors to pour money into Taiwan and revitalize its economy. However, most Taiwanese people dislike and detest Mainland China and its government and culture as well, so they do not want that option. Deep down, what they really want is for Japan to help Taiwan and take it under its wing again as it did in the past, because Taiwanese people still admire Japan and its culture. But Japan has enough problems of its own now, and is also stagnate itself, so it is not in a position to help Taiwan. Another option would be to receive help and investment from America, but the problem with that is that any attempt by the USA to strengthen Taiwan's economy would be seen as a threat to China, so it would damage US-China relations. That's why the US is reluctant to do that.

So Taiwan remains isolated and confused about what to do, while its economy is shrinking and stagnating. So it is in an economic limbo as well, and also struggles with its identity, because it is not officially sovereign, nor has it reunified with China. Many Westerners want an independent Taiwan of course. But the issue is complicated because if Taiwan officially declared independence, China could retaliate with invasion or extreme measures. Because for China to do nothing, would show a sign of weakness, and could incite its other 56 provinces to seek independence and separation from the PRC as well. And since the PRC is all about order and control, it cannot afford to lose its grip. Otherwise its authority and control would be undermined and lose its stability of course. The function of any government is to control and manage its people, so it cannot tolerate any threat to that control. Only time will tell what will happen hereon.

Lesson in Logic and Critical Thinking For Chinese People - Authority is NOT Truth, Are You Brainwashed?

Finally, it is odd that you take this issue so personally as if you demand that everyone has to agree that Taiwan belongs to China, or you will be angry and offended. That is strange and illogical. Why do you care? This issue does not affect your life in any way. So it should NOT be personal or emotional to you. Think about it. The fact that you seem to take this issue personally indicates that you are victim to cult brainwashing or mind control. I don't mean to offend you. It's just a psychological logical deduction. Because it is not normal or natural to take such a political issue personally as if your ego and pride are at stake. Moreover, China already has a lot of land under its ownership. Why does it care about Taiwan or dispute the lands on the border with India and other countries?

Furthermore, consider that just because China tells you something, does not make it true. China is NOT God and is NOT infallible. If China told you that 2+2=5, would you agree with it? lol. Of course not. Remember that truth is determined by reason and evidence, NOT by authority. Authority can be wrong and has often been. Authority's job is to control you, not enlighten you with truth. Think about it. That's a lesson in logic and critical thinking for you. Please learn to think and look at the big picture. Otherwise you will be like the robot species with a hive mind known as "The Borg Collective" in the TV show "Star Trek: The Next Generation" and the movie "Star Trek: First Contact". Please see that TV show and movie to know what I am referring to. You definitely don't want to be like that, but if you cannot think and just believe whatever everyone else does or whatever you are told, then you are no different than robots with a hive mind, or ants in an ant colony with a hive mind. No offense. It's just the truth. Sorry if this goes against your programming. I'm just trying to enlighten you here, not offend you or argue with you. Hope you can see the bigger picture.

Thanks for listening and considering these key facts and points.

[Yohan]

Is it a bad idea to debate mainland Chinese women about whether Taiwan belongs to China or not? lol.

These women are brainwashed by the Chinese communist propaganda machine.

Best to refrain from any political comments while in China as a foreigner, you can find yourself in big troubles if one of these women reports you.
China has disputes with almost every country located next to it about what belongs to China and what is still left over for the others.

For example China is claiming a large land, Anuchal Pradesh, from India - this is an entire province of India east of Bhutan and China is calling it 'South Tibet'. Never any Chinese was living there.

China is also not ashamed to claim 3 little provinces from tiny Bhutan, is claiming some islands from Vietnam, is claiming sea territory as far as Riau Islands which belong to Indonesia and are located far south of Vietnam, is claiming the entire South China Sea, is claiming small rocks from South Korea and Japan in the East China Sea (despite they are nearer to South Korea and Japan) and the list continues.

Taiwan is not Hong Kong, and I doubt if China will invade Taiwan at this moment. Taiwan is full with military stuff, has 23 million people and USA will provide any kind of military and civil material to Taiwan because of their defense treaty.

Of course China is also claiming Taiwan, but there was never any Chinese communist official in charge of this island, quite different from HongKong.

Personally I do not consider Taiwan as a part of China, it is already more or less independent economically and it should become politically also an independent nation in future, if you ask me.

Now the timing is quite good for Taiwan for its independence, as many Western nations are totally pissed off with Communist China because of the corona virus and land and water claims, and HongKong affairs and other issues.

[Winston]

But Yohan, I'm not pro Taiwan independence or anti. I'm in the gray area, but in reality the situation is in a gray area. You can't really say that Taiwan is a separate country either, because it never officially declared indepdence in 1945 remember?

Why does China care about Taiwan though? It already has so much land. Why would a small island matter to them? And why is it disputing more land and islands with other countries? On what basis? Surely it must have a basis in order to dispute something right? It can't just be "because we are God and we say so" right?

What's China's basis for ownership of Taiwan? They must have some historical basis right? They can't just say "because we are God and we say so".

Didn't Taiwan belong to China before 1895? Or was it an independent province like TIbet, as some say?

Btw, how does China explain why the whole world hates it? Doesn't basic logic say that if the whole world hates something, then there is a good reason for that? Even Chinese people can see that. So what is their official explanation? How do they explain that away? What if a student in a China school asked their teacher that question?

Also Yohan, I added this additional section to my above post too. How do you explain it? What's your solution to Taiwan's economic dilemma and stagnation problems?

Taiwan's Current Economic Dilemma

Here's the current economic situation and dilemma in Taiwan now. Its economy is shrinking and has been for the last 10 years since 2010. In Taiwan I see businesses and restaurants closing all the time, which is bad news for its economy. Wages have stagnated for years, and there is no economic growth. (Not that I care about such things, but people involved in business do of course.) (Even Taiwan's birthrate is the lowest in all of Asia, so something is screwed for sure.) The reason is because no major superpower is supporting Taiwan. Economic experts say that the only way to jumpstart Taiwan's economy is for it to reunify with China, which then would allow Chinese investors to pour money into Taiwan and revitalize its economy. However, most Taiwanese people dislike and detest Mainland China and its government and culture as well, so they do not want that option. Deep down, what they really want is for Japan to help Taiwan and take it under its wing again as it did in the past, because Taiwanese people still admire Japan and its culture. But Japan has enough problems of its own now, and is also stagnate itself, so it is not in a position to help Taiwan. Another option would be to receive help and investment from America, but the problem with that is that any attempt by the USA to strengthen Taiwan's economy would be seen as a threat to China, so it would damage US-China relations. That's why the US is reluctant to do that.

So Taiwan remains isolated and confused about what to do, while its economy is shrinking and stagnating. So it is in an economic limbo as well, and also struggles with its identity, because it is not officially sovereign, nor has it reunified with China. Many Westerners want an independent Taiwan of course. But the issue is complicated because if Taiwan officially declared independence, China could retaliate with invasion or extreme measures. Because for China to do nothing, would show a sign of weakness, and could incite its other 56 provinces to seek independence and separation from the PRC as well. And since the PRC is all about order and control, it cannot afford to lose its grip. Otherwise its authority and control would be undermined and lose its stability of course. The function of any government is to control and manage its people, so it cannot tolerate any threat to that control. Only time will tell what will happen hereon.

[Winston]

Why is China threatening to invade Taiwan again?

Aren't threats from China to invade Taiwan common? Why is this time any different?

Plus a real invasion usually comes as a surprise. Like Pearl Harbor. They dont tell u about it in advance so u can prepare. Thus usually threats are bluffs and bullying right? Not real.

If a country wanted to invade theyd just do it and not talk about it. And theyd try to use the element of surprise to win. Classic war strategy.

[Yohan]

Why is China threatening to invade Taiwan again?

Aren't threats from China to invade Taiwan common? Why is this time any different?

Plus a real invasion usually comes as a surprise. Like Pearl Harbor. They dont tell u about it in advance so u can prepare. Thus usually threats are bluffs and bullying right? Not real.

If a country wanted to invade theyd just do it and not talk about it. And theyd try to use the element of surprise to win. Classic war strategy.

To answer your question, just my opinion,
China is not invading, it is waiting, threatening and it is doing its best to make Taiwan worried - which in return has to spend a lot of money for its defense, basically China is trying to make Taiwan bankrupt.

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-taiw ... SKBN26S0K6

Taiwan says has spent almost $900 million scrambling against China this year

TAIPEI (Reuters) - Taiwan has spent almost $900 million this year on scrambling its air force against Chinese incursions, the island’s defence minister said on Wednesday, describing the pressure they are facing as “great”.

Taiwan's Minister of National Defense Yen Teh-fa speaks to the media in Taipei, Taiwan, October 7, 2020.

China, which claims democratic Taiwan as its own territory, has stepped up its military activity near the island, responding to what China calls “collusion” between Taiwan and the United States.

China has been angered at increased U.S. support for Taiwan, including visits by senior U.S. government officials and ramped up arms sales.

In the past few weeks, Chinese fighter jets have crossed the mid line of the Taiwan Strait, which normally serves as an unofficial buffer zone, and flown multiple missions into Taiwan’s southwestern air defence identification zone.

Speaking at parliament, Taiwan Defence Minister Yen De-fa said to the air force had scrambled 2,972 times against Chinese aircraft this year at a cost of T$25.5 billion ($886.49 million).

“Recently the pressure has been great. To say otherwise would be deceiving people,” Yen said, without giving a comparison figure for last year.

He clarified that a figure of 4,132 air force missions this year, as provided in a ministry parliamentary briefing paper, included training and regular patrol missions.

Yen said that the armed forces would this month carry out their own drills off Taiwan’s southwest coast, though they would not be live fire.

Taiwan’s armed forces are well-trained and well-equipped but are dwarfed by those of China’s, and Taiwan’s Defence Ministry has previously acknowledged the strain the repeated Chinese drills were placing on them.

Taiwan is in the process of revamping its fighter fleet.

The United States last year approved an $8 billion sale of F-16 fighter jets to Taiwan, a deal that would bring the island’s total number of the aircraft to more than 200, the largest F-16 fleet in Asia.

Taiwan is not HongKong.... Taiwan is not Philippines either.

Taiwan is not so easy to invade, it has a huge number of F-16 fighters and is full with weapons of any kind you can image.

China tries now to force Taiwan to spend more and more money for its military....just provoking it almost every hour, 24h a day, 365 days a year.

Of course Taiwan cannot fight off an invasion by Chinese forces, but it will take a while for China to take Taiwan and to remove its government by military force and during this time Taiwan airforce will cause huge damage to many facilities on the Chinese mainland.

Is it worth it? This is what likely the Chinese government in Beijing is thinking about.

Taiwan will not run out of supplies quickly, as USA has a defense treaty with Taiwan.

[MarcosZeitola]

Taiwan obviously is a fully indepedent nation. If it walks like a duck, talks like a duck, looks like a duck... it's probably not a racoon. And no, Taiwan is not a 'renegade province of China'. Does their government still hold on to the illusion of one day ruling the entire Mainland? No of course not. Chiang Kai-Chek is long dead and so are virtually all his known associates. The current Taiwanese government is pragmatic to its core. They won't do it. Risk it. China threatens them. Remove the threat and they declare independence tomorrow. China's just pissy and a sore loser.