Does Taiwan belong to China? Will China ever invade Taiwan?

[Winston]

Question:
Why is it that whenever I ask a mainland Chinese girl "Do you think Taiwan belongs to China?" they always react with emotion and say strongly "Of course it does!"
Why do they act like they have an emotional investment in the politics of a small island? I mean, what does it have to do with them personally? Why do they care? Why don't they just say "I guess so, but it depends on who you ask"? lol
How do they explain how Taiwan came to have a separate government?
Momopi, Kai, what do you think?
Also, what if you were to ask a Taiwanese girl the same question? Would she have a strong opinion on that too?

The CCP's stated position is that Mainland China and Taiwan belong to one China, the sovereignty of one China is indivisible, Taiwan is a residual problem of the Chinese civil war, and is an internal affair of China. Article 8 of the Anti-Secession Law authorizes the Chinese government to use military force to conquer Taiwan if deemed necessary. This is what they teach in Chinese schools and opposition to re-unification with Taiwan is illegal.

Yeah I know. But why do mainland Chinese girls act like they have an emotional investment in it? They say it with strong emotion and passion, as though it were a religion.

[xiongmao]

Good lord, don't ever ask Chinese girls about Taiwan.

Taiwan belongs to China, end of story.

[momopi]

Yeah I know. But why do mainland Chinese girls act like they have an emotional investment in it? They say it with strong emotion and passion, as though it were a religion.

Because it's an emotional issue, just like the anti-Japanese education in Chinese (or Korean) history class, or folks at pro-Taiwan independence rallies.

[kai1275]

Chinese people are Ethnocentric and Xenophobic. Anything that ever belonged to them in the past, is China or Chinese. That goes for Tibet and any islands within 300 miles of China's coast. Like momo said, they are taught this in school (brainwashing more or less). That is why most hate the Japanese. Well and that shrine visit that pisses off most of Asia and their refusal to apologize for WW2 as well...

When the US loses most of it's power and ability to defend Taiwan, the Chinese will take it back. Right now is not a good time, but they have not forgotten about it. The US can barely defend Taiwan right now anyway. Business reasons and trade reasons are mostly why the CCP will not rush them outright. HTC and other Taiwan based tech firms have factories in China and extensive trade partnerships. Chinese govt style is one of money and business first instead of force. They want their businesses and money more than anything. They will wait it out like they did with Hong Kong. The UK got too weak and had no real reason to keep HK, so they got it back without any guns or money being wasted. They are patient enough to wait. They know the Taiwanese are not going anywhere...

[momopi]

Chinese people are Ethnocentric and Xenophobic. Anything that ever belonged to them in the past, is China or Chinese. That goes for Tibet and any islands within 300 miles of China's coast. Like momo said, they are taught this in school (brainwashing more or less). That is why most hate the Japanese. Well and that shrine visit that pisses off most of Asia and their refusal to apologize for WW2 as well...
When the US loses most of it's power and ability to defend Taiwan, the Chinese will take it back. Right now is not a good time, but they have not forgotten about it. The US can barely defend Taiwan right now anyway. Business reasons and trade reasons are mostly why the CCP will not rush them outright. HTC and other Taiwan based tech firms have factories in China and extensive trade partnerships. Chinese govt style is one of money and business first instead of force. They want their businesses and money more than anything. They will wait it out like they did with Hong Kong. The UK got too weak and had no real reason to keep HK, so they got it back without any guns or money being wasted. They are patient enough to wait. They know the Taiwanese are not going anywhere...

1. The Chinese Government use Qing-era "maximum extent" maps as basis for their claims, but can be flexible will settle for less. Of the 23 territorial disputes, the Chinese government has compromised on 17 and accepted much less. For example, in the territorial dispute with central Asia, China accepted settlement for 32% with Kyrgyzstan, 22% with Kazakhstan, and just 3.5% with Tajikistan. That is, China had claimed 28,000 sq km in dispute with Tajikistan, but accepted an agreement for only ~1,000 sq km.

Note: When China "settle for less", they're still gaining territory that wasn't in their control at start of negotiations.

2. Chinese citizens are expected to accept what the government feeds them about territorial claims and settlements. You see Chinese citizens protesting against Japan over a few rocks in the ocean, but there is no protest over the "loss" of 27,000 sq km of disputed territory with Tajikistan. Or that Chinese citizens are supposed to believe in reunification with Taiwan, but accept the independence of Mongolia.

3. The US military is far more powerful at fighting real wars than pessimists would believe, but we suck at occupation and nation building. The forward deployed 7th fleet is only a small part of USN with just 1 carrier strike group. The 3rd fleet behind them (California-Hawaii) has 4 carrier strike groups. The Chinese Navy knows that they cannot match the might of the USN on open seas at this time, thus their strategy is air-sea access denial in near-shore areas.

However, for China's neighbors, the picture is quite different. China's annual defense expenditure is probably equal to the sum of South Korea, Japan, Taiwan, Vietnam, Laos, Thailand, Burma, Bangladesh, and India combined. While the Japanese Navy enjoy technical superiority, the Chinese military is busy closing that technology gap.

[Winston]

Momopi,
I have a question. How come 100 or 200 years ago, the Chinese government didn't just send an army to occupy Taiwan and make it a Chinese province, so that today there wouldn't be this debate about whether Taiwan ever belonged to China or not?

Kind of like how 2,000 years ago the Roman Empire under Emperor Claudius sent a big army across the English channel to Britannia (England) and occupied it for 300 years, making it a Roman province.

Why didn't China do that with Taiwan in the past?

[Rock]

Momopi,
I have a question. How come 100 or 200 years ago, the Chinese government didn't just send an army to occupy Taiwan and make it a Chinese province, so that today there wouldn't be this debate about whether Taiwan ever belonged to China or not?

Kind of like how 2,000 years ago the Roman Empire under Emperor Claudius sent a big army across the English channel to Britannia (England) and occupied it for 300 years, making it a Roman province.

Why didn't China do that with Taiwan in the past?

Before the Japanese took over Taiwan in late 19th century, it was def-acto integrated w/Qing dynasty. But it was just a backwater so probably did not receive much priority even tho by then, it had a huge (in percentage terms) Han Chinese population (mostly from Fujian including your own ancestors but also some Hakka).

Remember, the full modern concept of nation did not really exist until rather recently.

[Ghost]

.

[Jester]

Years ago the Republic of China successfully defended the tiny islands of Quemoy and Matru against PRC shelling. The islands are right off the coast of the mainland. Thus Taiwan itself could easily maintain its independence from the PRC if it chose to do so.

The two things needed to do so would be:
(1) Build and maintain a world-class military at peak readiness, rather than just buying whatever the USA says to buy;
(2) Nuclear weapons.

Both would be simple for the ROC to do -- if they decided to.

IMO it's not just USA degeneracy that the PRC is waiting for. It's also sloth and indolence in Taiwan. The PRC is playing its hand well.

[momopi]

Momopi,
I have a question. How come 100 or 200 years ago, the Chinese government didn't just send an army to occupy Taiwan and make it a Chinese province, so that today there wouldn't be this debate about whether Taiwan ever belonged to China or not?
<snip>
Why didn't China do that with Taiwan in the past?

...forces from China conquered or assumed ownership of Taiwan in 1661 (by Ming Loyalists), 1683 (by Qing Dynasty), and 1945 (by Republic of China). Qing Dynasty administered Taiwan from 1683-1895, elevating Taiwan to Province status in 1885. However, up until the early 20th century, nobody really had full control of TW as various colonial powers only effectively administered strips of coastal areas. Wandering into the wrong forest will result in losing your head by the natives.



Taiwan under various powers/administrations:
Iberian Union (Spanish Formosa) 1626 to 1642
Dutch Formosa 1624 to 1662
Kingdom of Tungning (Ming Dynasty Loyalists) 1661–1683
Qing Dynasty 1683 - 1895
Japanese Empire 1895-1945
Republic of China 1945 - Present

If the question is "has Taiwan ever belonged to China", the answer is yes. But by the same standard, it's also true for Spain, Netherlands, and the Japanese, since they all administered Taiwan in the past.

If the question is "has Taiwan ever belonged to the People's Republic of China", then the answer is no. Since the founding of the People's Republic in 1949, Taiwan to date has never been part of the PRC.

Look, there are numerous books and articles written on Taiwan's history. Go read a few.

[Winston]

Momopi,
Thanks for the info and data. I have a few more questions though.

1. When the Nationalist Party fled to Taiwan from China in the late 1940's after they lost the civil war against the Communists, and set up base in Taiwan, why didn't China immediately send troops to conquer and occupy Taiwan? If it had, then it wouldn't have this problem today with the "rebel province" of Taiwan right? It could have easily taken Taiwan at that point. It was a sitting duck. In fact, China probably can take Taiwan by force today if it wanted to. It can just launch an endless supply of millions of troops at Taiwan, like Russia did with Nazi Germany when it threw endless millions of troops at it. So why didn't China immediately capture Taiwan and eliminate the Nationalists?

2. If Taiwan belonged to China for hundreds of years per the timeline you gave, then how and when did it suddenly "not belong" to China after the 19th Century? How did it free itself from China? I can't imagine it freed itself via armed conflict since Taiwan did not have the capability to do that. So how did it suddenly not belong to China in the 20th Century?

3. A Chinese guy in our Facebook group said that Taiwanese are not descended from Fujian province, but from another one. Is that true? If so, why did they adopt the Hokkien dialect of Fujian then? Here is what he said:



"Taiwanese are ethnically different from Chinese. But, Taiwanese are ethnically the same as the Zhuang people in the Guangxi Autonomous Region though. You can say Taiwanese are ethnically the same as one of the 56 minority groups in China.

I did a lot of work on this because of some personal experience. Winston, Taiwanese are Zhuang people that absorbed many cultural elements from Fujian, they are not completely from Fujian Province. During Zheng Chen Gong's time, many local Zhuang people adopted Chinese names. After that, many people from Fujian province moved to Taiwan starting several hundred years ago. Because of the 'three prohibitions' from Qing Imperial Government, only men came to Taiwan. They married the local Zhuang girls. I bet, even before Zheng Chen Gong, because of the huge economic influence from China, from Ming Dynasty, many Taiwanese Zhuang people already adopted many cultural elements from China. No, Taiwan was never a part of China, except during Qing Dynasty. Even at that time, Taiwan was like an ethnic group autonomous region, similar to Tibet today. These ethnic minority existed outside of China or as autonomous regions inside China. And yes, Taiwanese are not Han Chinese but are Zhuang people or if you like Zhuang Chinese. Taiwanese are ethnically the same as Guangxi's Zhuang people and Taiwan was like Guangxi today, an ethnic minority autonomous region.

That is why Taiwan and China feel like two different countries. Taiwanese have not completely sinicized. Taiwan does not have its own local culture. In the ancient times, Taiwan obtained its culture from the Fujian province. Later, after 1895, Taiwan got its culture from Japan and America. But Japan also has no culture of its own. In the ancient time, Japan got its culture from Hebei Province of China. After Menji restoration, after Admiral Perry fired into Tokyo Bay, Japan absorbed cultural elements from America and massaged into its own culture. That is why Taiwan and America are so similar socially. What I saw in Taiwan when I was young was not China, it was America. That is why I always say: in Taiwan and in America and I compare these two places. I consider these two societies socially similar."

[Winston]

A PDF ebook you can download that argues the case for Taiwan independence.

https://thepiratebay.la/torrent/6464211 ... dependence

"This book sidesteps the international dimension of the Taiwan question to make the case for independence. Davison traces the growth of a distinct Taiwanese cultural identity only partially related to China, arguing that Taiwan's independence is for the island's people alone to decide." - Edward L. Farmer Professor of History and East Asian Studies, University of Minnesota

"A book of significance to familiarize the world community of scholars and educators with the history of Taiwan since the 17th century. Davison has done a good job in bringing Taiwan's history back to the right track, that is, in Taiwan's own right. It provides a concise account of the historical fates imposed on and experienced by Taiwanese society over the past four centuries, a history of constant outside aggressions and never ending struggles for autonomy from inside. Taiwan has come a long way, as this book argues, to have finally determined its own destiny since the year 2000.“ - H. Michael Hsiao Executive Director Center for Asian Pacific Area Studies Academia Sinica

"This is, by far, the only book that explores the modern development of Taiwan from a chronological perspective. With fine scholarship, the author successfully blends narration and analysis in a concisely written history that gives voice to Taiwan's leaders, parties, and peoples. The responses of Taiwan's people explain why the idea of independence loomed large as time passed, and the historical perspective featured in the book provides room for further discussion of the Mandate of Taiwan. This book provides not only a good general understanding of the past and present Taiwan but also definitely serves as a good reference for the study of the future of Taiwan." - Peter Chen-main Wang National Chung Cheng University

Book Description

This concise account of Taiwan's history offers a compelling argument, based on historical facts, for a plausible declaration of the island's independence.

Hardcover: 160 pages
Publisher: Praeger (October 30, 2003)
Language: English

[momopi]

Momopi,
Thanks for the info and data. I have a few more questions though.

1. The CCP did not have the navy to conquer Taiwan at the time. They couldn't even take a small island at the time: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Guningtou

2. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treaty_of_Shimonoseki

3. Dude has weird ideas about history, but the comment "Japan also has no culture of its own" is classic. A culture, however primitive it may be, is still a culture.

When Fujian was Minyue like 2,300 years ago, the locals were prolly related to the ancestors of Thai and Zhuang peoples. However in the 2000+ years since there were numerous waves of immigration into Fujian. For example, when Jin Dynasty fell ~1700 years ago there was a mass migration of ethnic Han southward. The Hokkien language contains ancient Minyue words and ancient Han words, for example "鼎" for cooking pot.

As ethnic Han migrants moved in, the locals were displaced, intermarried, assimilated (Sinicized), or ran away. This continued for over a thousand years before the chaos of late-Ming era brought immigrants from Fujian to Taiwan. To claim that Taiwanese is Zhuang today is a bit far-fetched.

[Winston]

But Momopi,
My parents said that after WWII, Japan agreed to give Taiwan back its independence as part of its treaty with American. After that, the US Navy protected Taiwan and wanted it to be independent so that the US could use it as a base in Asia to threaten China anytime it wants. So the US Navy was the reason China didn't invade, or "liberate", Taiwan as it wanted to. Is that true?

Also, in the famous movie "To Live (1994)", it shows the people of China cheering for the "liberation of Taiwan" as they prepared the raw materials for the Chinese army to "liberate" Taiwan from the Nationals. Doesn't that mean that China did have a navy or ships to deploy troops into Taiwan?

I heard that Taiwan was given to Japan in 1895 by China after China lost a war with Japan. So Taiwan was not conquered and did not suffer the atrocities during WWII that China did. That's why Taiwan is more pro-Japanese than China is. If China gave away Taiwan, then why does it claim that Taiwan belongs to it today, since it was never given back?

[Winston]

Here is a 6 hour documentary series on the history of Taiwan. It's in Mandarin and Taiwanese though.

Part 1 of 7:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7SSLohWxM8g

More parts here:
http://www.youtube.com/results?search_q ... pfreload=1