Lying about one's own nationality

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Lucas88
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Lying about one's own nationality

Post by Lucas88 »

You guys all know my story already. I was born and raised in the UK but was always a misfit there and hate everything about the country. I therefore do everything I can to distance myself from my own nationality.

Since the age of 15 I've been a complete Hispanophile. I began to obsessively learn Spanish in my late teenage years and soon became fluent in the language and then spent significant time in Spain and Latin America where I felt much happier and fit in with the culture. I consider myself a Latin soul.

However, I soon discovered that even though I don't identify with Anglo culture others will still associate me with it by virtue of my (unwanted) nationality as soon as they find out where I'm from. Let me be clear. I absolutely don't like British people, am repulsed by all manifestations of British culture, hate the sound of British English, and make an active effort to avoid British people whenever I'm abroad. So naturally, whenever I'm in Spain or elsewhere, I dread being asked where I'm from. I speak Spanish well enough not to be perceived as a gringo/guiri (I don't have an Anglophone accent) and so most people simply assume that I belong to some other nationality. But when somebody asks me "¿De dónde eres?" and I have to reply "Inglaterra", I am overcome with shame and embarrassment and begin to feel extremely uncomfortable. I'm forced to assume a national identity which really doesn't suit me and which I loathe.

Spain and Latin America aren't the only places I've lived in. I also spent some time in Japan in the late 2000s and early 2010s and learned Japanese to a high level.

During my stay in Japan, I would simply tell people that I'm Spanish. After all, I already spoke fluent Spanish and most Japanese people are clueless about the different European nationalities. It was unlikely that anybody would figure out my white lie ("white" here meaning gaijin Caucasian foreigner :lol: ).

As a Caucasian foreigner in Japan, you typically attract a lot of attention and sometimes get Japanese randos in the street or some other public place coming up to you and asking for English practice. Some of them can be quite a nuisance. Or alternatively you speak to a cashier or whoever in reasonably good Japanese and they see your Caucasian gaijin face and respond to you in broken English. Whenever these things used to happen, I would usually tell my interlocutor that Spanish is my native language and that I'm bad at English and ask them to speak Japanese. The "Eigo beggar" randos would then apologize with a "Ah, sumimasen!" and leave me alone while the cashiers and such would immediately switch to Japanese and the transaction would go smoothly. 8)

I never felt bad about lying about my nationality in Japan, by the way. The Eigo beggar randos merely wanted to use me as a commodity for language practice without giving a fcuk about who I was or how I felt about the situation, the cashiers and such were being prejudiced against the white-faced gaijin (白人だからといって日本語がわからないわけではない!), I never had the patience to listen to Japanese people's annoying and poorly pronounced "katakana ingirish", and, as I've already explained, I don't really identify with Anglo culture anyway and so I had no reason to speak English with anybody in Japan. I'm a vibrant and free-spirit Latin soul and a virulent and pathological Anglophobe, after all. :wink:

In Spain the situation isn't anywhere near as bad. As a European I don't stand out very much at all and even look somewhat Mediterranean due to my obsession with tanning and my consistent use of Melanotan. I feel perfectly at home as a European in a European country.

Nevertheless, I still dislike having to reveal my nationality to people when asked about it. I'm so detached from my roots that I don't even know how to "act British". Also, due to the position of English as a lingua franca of sorts, once in a while even in Spain some asshole with L2 English abilities will attempt to speak the language with me once my nationality and native status have been revealed (although this happens far less frequently than in Japan where I'm an obvious whiteboi foreigner and therefore assumed to be an Anglophone, lol!). This naturally pisses me off since I don't like the sound of English, hate the way I speak English due to a bumpkin accent and dysprosody, only desire to speak Spanish which I regard as a far more beautiful and superior language, and once again feel no connection to British culture despite officially being "British" myself. I see my nationality as a source of self-hatred and a major inconvenience. :(

Why can't I just lie about my nationality in Spain too? The problem is that I'm not fluent in any European language other than English and Spanish and therefore wouldn't be able to convincingly pull it off.

In Japan I could get away with telling people that I'm Spanish because I have a high level of Spanish and could most likely fool just about any Japanese person even if that person knew some Spanish, but if in Spain I were to claim to be, say, Serbian or Lithuanian or some other obscure European nationality, without legitimate skills in the language I would run the risk of getting caught should I encounter a native speaker of that language or even just a hobbyist polyglot who happens to have learned some of it. I've actually dabbled in Serbo-Croatian and Russian. But my knowledge of those languages is still quite basic. And, for obvious reasons, nobody would ever believe that Japanese were my native language. Lol!

And for the moralists on the forum who might start tubthumping about the virtue of honesty and whatnot, I have no moral problem with lying and Machiavellianism. This world is a rat race of conflict and competition and ruthless dickheads trying to get one over on their fellow man. People lie all the time to protect themselves from discrimination and affronts to their personal integrity, to avoid potential threats and inconveniences, to get away from others who are being a nuisance, or to gain the upper hand in a situation which involves a conflict of interests. Besides, as I've already said in another thread, most people who we meet are assholes anyway.

This is my reflection on the topic of lying about my own nationality. While I'm not particularly asking for advice or anything like that, I hope that some of you can read my reflection and even find humor in the funny parts! 8)


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yick
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Re: Lying about one's own nationality

Post by yick »

Lying about something like your nationality shows you're still in a toxic place.

It isn't about honesty but why are you lying about something you cannot change, you are British culturally even if you relinquish British nationality and become a Spaniard or a Peruvian.

I am in Mexico now and I had a very pleasant conversation with a beautiful waitress here in some posh cafe, she guessed I was British and when I asked how did she know - she said it was because I had a 'beautiful accent' now, I have an accent from the north west England and very few people say I have a beautiful accent but if I went around lying that I was from Swaziland or Uzbekistan then that exchange could not have happened.

The UK has given a lot to pop culture which Latin Americans and Spaniards value - pop music, films, literature, football - I get that you hate British society and its toxicity because it is toxic, there's no two ways about it that the country has many unhappy, angry people but the first thing you need to do when you leave the UK is rid yourself of your own toxicity - most people in Latin America do not care if you are British or if you are not - they care how you act, how you dress and how you come across - the reason you hate your own culture because in our country, there is an underlying acceptance of hating cultures - not British but it isn't rare to hear the hatred of French culture or German culture or whomever and it is accepted - the first thing you need to do - because you aren't going to be able to change being culturally British however well you speak Spanish is to accept that you are British and when you meet other people on your travels and you tell them you're British - they will make some superficial comment about some pop band they like or 'Manchester' (United) and don't be the stereotype - when I am walking down the street here in Mexico and someone I don't know gives me a cheery 'buenas' then I give one back and now I give it to people walking down the street that I don't know - you don't do that in Britain but because I do it here - the fact that I am British becomes less relevant because I don't act like an uptight socially repressed Brit.
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Natural_Born_Cynic
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Re: Lying about one's own nationality

Post by Natural_Born_Cynic »

I actually like British people and I find them ok. I bet your new Spanish, Hispanic friends would think so too. And I am sorry, you can't really escape from stereotypes. Many Americans also like the British accent because thanks to Harry Potter, James Bond, Guy Ritchie, Spice Girls, Monty Python, Lord of the Rings, and many others. Americans think British accent is actually sophisticated. Whether some Chav speaks it or some Royal speaks it. 8)
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Lucas88
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Re: Lying about one's own nationality

Post by Lucas88 »

yick wrote:
July 12th, 2023, 12:26 pm
Lying about something like your nationality shows you're still in a toxic place.
I wouldn't consider myself in a toxic place. Unlike some members of this forum, I have quite a serene mental state for the most part and haven't been bitter at the world for a long time.

My problem is that I've always felt extreme aversion towards British culture and really don't feel comfortable with it at all. I don't feel comfortable associating with British people because I find them too weird and obnoxious and have never fit into their social circles anyway. I don't like hearing British English and can't stand speaking it either because I find it so ugly and soulless and it actually produces in me a feeling of phobia and disgust. And I never had any affinity for British pop music, cinema, literature or football (America made far better pop music in my opinion and British cinema is quite bland and boring).

My desire to disassociate myself from my own nationality is simply to escape from the displeasure which that culture causes me rather than due to any supposed toxicity. People tend to avoid that which produces displeasure and pain and seek out that which produces pleasure. It's human nature.

Lying about my own nationality even served practical purposes at times. When I was in Japan, telling people that I was Spanish and didn't speak much English was a good way of getting rid of those annoying Japanese randos who stop the Caucasian gaijin in the street and insist on having a conversation with you in broken English (or "Eigo beggars" as they are called in some corners of the internet, lol). Being White in Asia means "free language teacher" and "free conversation partner" to many people. Since I was initially in Japan to learn Japanese through immersion and don't have any love for my own Anglo roots anyway, I considered such advances a nuisance and found that posing as a native Spanish speaker was an effective solution to said inconvenience.

On a more general note, whenever I'm living the HA lifestyle in a foreign country, I insist on speaking nothing but the local language all of the time. That's why I'm actually good at foreign languages. I don't let English's purported status as a global lingua franca hold me back in any way. I'm tenacious when it comes to my language goals. 8)
yick wrote:
July 12th, 2023, 12:26 pm
It isn't about honesty but why are you lying about something you cannot change, you are British culturally even if you relinquish British nationality and become a Spaniard or a Peruvian.
I don't even consider myself "British culturally". I was always a misfit in the UK and literally don't know how to act around British people.

I'm more like one of those "third culture kids" who don't quite feel like full natives of either culture. I'm too different from British folks to be considered a real Englishman (even my Spanish and Latin American friends say that I don't seem like an English person at all and don't give off a British vibe). Likewise, I'm obviously not the same culturally as native Spaniards since I'm a foreigner who learned Spanish as a second language and moved to Spain as an adult. I'm more of an anomaly who doesn't completely belong here or there but who overwhelmingly fits into Spanish society much better.
yick wrote:
July 12th, 2023, 12:26 pm
I am in Mexico now and I had a very pleasant conversation with a beautiful waitress here in some posh cafe, she guessed I was British and when I asked how did she know - she said it was because I had a 'beautiful accent' now, I have an accent from the north west England and very few people say I have a beautiful accent but if I went around lying that I was from Swaziland or Uzbekistan then that exchange could not have happened.
In Latin America, I just speak beautiful Spanish and sometimes girls are amazed at how well a Caucasian foreigner can speak their language and even tell me that my accent has a nice musical quality. No need to speak English whether it be common chavspeak or some Roger Moore-esque posh aristocratic English. Lol!
yick wrote:
July 12th, 2023, 12:26 pm
the reason you hate your own culture because in our country, there is an underlying acceptance of hating cultures - not British but it isn't rare to hear the hatred of French culture or German culture or whomever and it is accepted
No, it's not because of an underlying acceptance of hating other cultures, it's simply because I personally don't resonate with British culture or feel compatible with it for the reasons that I've explained at the beginning of this post. We all have our own aesthetic and cultural preferences. Sometimes we just don't resonate with the culture we were brought up in. It's that simple.

I happen to be an extreme case of somebody who doesn't resonate with their native culture. Probably too extreme a case for you to understand. You seem to dislike the UK merely for its rotten society and shit weather while I detest the UK also for its culture, aesthetics, language and even its people (I just don't like Germanic cultures).

But I appreciate that you took the time to respond to my topic and made it into an interesting discussion. I honestly thought that nobody was going to respond. :lol:
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Re: Lying about one's own nationality

Post by yick »

Lucas88 wrote:
July 12th, 2023, 3:02 pm
yick wrote:
July 12th, 2023, 12:26 pm
Lying about something like your nationality shows you're still in a toxic place.
I wouldn't consider myself in a toxic place. Unlike some members of this forum, I have quite a serene mental state for the most part and haven't been bitter at the world for a long time.

My problem is that I've always felt extreme aversion towards British culture and really don't feel comfortable with it at all. I don't feel comfortable associating with British people because I find them too weird and obnoxious and have never fit into their social circles anyway. I don't like hearing British English and can't stand speaking it either because I find it so ugly and soulless and it actually produces in me a feeling of phobia and disgust. And I never had any affinity for British pop music, cinema, literature or football (America made far better pop music in my opinion and British cinema is quite bland and boring).

My desire to disassociate myself from my own nationality is simply to escape from the displeasure which that culture causes me rather than due to any supposed toxicity. People tend to avoid that which produces displeasure and pain and seek out that which produces pleasure. It's human nature.

Lying about my own nationality even served practical purposes at times. When I was in Japan, telling people that I was Spanish and didn't speak much English was a good way of getting rid of those annoying Japanese randos who stop the Caucasian gaijin in the street and insist on having a conversation with you in broken English (or "Eigo beggars" as they are called in some corners of the internet, lol). Being White in Asia means "free language teacher" and "free conversation partner" to many people. Since I was initially in Japan to learn Japanese through immersion and don't have any love for my own Anglo roots anyway, I considered such advances a nuisance and found that posing as a native Spanish speaker was an effective solution to said inconvenience.

On a more general note, whenever I'm living the HA lifestyle in a foreign country, I insist on speaking nothing but the local language all of the time. That's why I'm actually good at foreign languages. I don't let English's purported status as a global lingua franca hold me back in any way. I'm tenacious when it comes to my language goals. 8)
yick wrote:
July 12th, 2023, 12:26 pm
It isn't about honesty but why are you lying about something you cannot change, you are British culturally even if you relinquish British nationality and become a Spaniard or a Peruvian.
I don't even consider myself "British culturally". I was always a misfit in the UK and literally don't know how to act around British people.

I'm more like one of those "third culture kids" who don't quite feel like full natives of either culture. I'm too different from British folks to be considered a real Englishman (even my Spanish and Latin American friends say that I don't seem like an English person at all and don't give off a British vibe). Likewise, I'm obviously not the same culturally as native Spaniards since I'm a foreigner who learned Spanish as a second language and moved to Spain as an adult. I'm more of an anomaly who doesn't completely belong here or there but who overwhelmingly fits into Spanish society much better.
yick wrote:
July 12th, 2023, 12:26 pm
I am in Mexico now and I had a very pleasant conversation with a beautiful waitress here in some posh cafe, she guessed I was British and when I asked how did she know - she said it was because I had a 'beautiful accent' now, I have an accent from the north west England and very few people say I have a beautiful accent but if I went around lying that I was from Swaziland or Uzbekistan then that exchange could not have happened.
In Latin America, I just speak beautiful Spanish and sometimes girls are amazed at how well a Caucasian foreigner can speak their language and even tell me that my accent has a nice musical quality. No need to speak English whether it be common chavspeak or some Roger Moore-esque posh aristocratic English. Lol!
yick wrote:
July 12th, 2023, 12:26 pm
the reason you hate your own culture because in our country, there is an underlying acceptance of hating cultures - not British but it isn't rare to hear the hatred of French culture or German culture or whomever and it is accepted
No, it's not because of an underlying acceptance of hating other cultures, it's simply because I personally don't resonate with British culture or feel compatible with it for the reasons that I've explained at the beginning of this post. We all have our own aesthetic and cultural preferences. Sometimes we just don't resonate with the culture we were brought up in. It's that simple.

I happen to be an extreme case of somebody who doesn't resonate with their native culture. Probably too extreme a case for you to understand. You seem to dislike the UK merely for its rotten society and shit weather while I detest the UK also for its culture, aesthetics, language and even its people (I just don't like Germanic cultures).

But I appreciate that you took the time to respond to my topic and made it into an interesting discussion. I honestly thought that nobody was going to respond. :lol:
I don't care to respond to all that except you are completely misinformed about what a 'third culture kid' is. If you were brought up in Dorset all your life to two British parents then that aint you or anywhere near approaching it.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Third_culture_kid

That isn't you and you can't go around making up your own meaning of it.

The facts are, if you were in the shit in Latin America, you would go to the British Embassy, if you went to the Spanish Embassy, they would direct you to the British Embassy.

Also, there are many Caucasians in Latin America. They're not going to be bothered about some white guy speaking Spanish well however he looks.

I didn't say YOU had an underlying acceptance of hating other cultures - I said British society - which it does. It cannot even be argued against.

I completely understand why you don't like British culture and in fact I agree with you on a lot of it - especially comparing it to the various Latin American cultures where people are polite, friendly, gentle and cultured - and they are and you are correct that you would prefer that as do I but as a citizen of a Latin American country, most people I know from that Latin American country would find it a bit weird that you would deny being British or lying about it when there is no real need and they would judge you on your actions and behaviours than your nationality - if you spent time there as you claim you would know this already. Being British is nothing to lie about - nobody would care that much - but if it is bringing you some solace, keep doing it.
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Lucas88
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Re: Lying about one's own nationality

Post by Lucas88 »

Natural_Born_Cynic wrote:
July 12th, 2023, 12:43 pm
I bet your new Spanish, Hispanic friends would think so too.
In my experience, Spaniards tend not to have a high opinion of British people. The British have a bad reputation in Spain due to chavvy tourists often behaving disorderly under the influence of alcohol and trashing the place up. Also, many Spaniards find even respectable British people "too weird". They even tell me this themselves and explain their reasons once they understand that I feel the same way about my supposed compatriots. I'm under the impression that British isn't considered a particularly attractive nationality in Spain. Moreover, Spain is a first-world Western European country with a rich culture and history and is a former imperialist power. Spaniards don't feel the need to worship Anglo countries like some cultures do.

Fortunately, I'm generally perceived in a different light because I speak Spanish and completely integrate into Spanish society. I've mostly been treated really well by Spaniards because I have a good attitude towards the country and its culture and people quickly find me relatable. This couldn't be any further from my experiences with people in the UK. The difference really is night and day. Since I don't feel any affinity for my own nationality and Spaniards seem to have a not so positive impression of Brits, I always prefer to remain in the "foreigner of ambiguous nationality" category for as long as possible. I only disclose my nationality when somebody explicitly asks me. Otherwise I just blend in without drawing too much attention to myself.

Even my Peruvian ex-girlfriend who I met in Spain didn't have a good impression of the British initially. She told me that she never expected to meet an English guy and that she fell in love with me despite my nationality and because I was different to other English people and that me having a high level of Spanish made our relationship possible (otherwise she wouldn't have even befriended me).

One of the main reasons why I want to dissociate myself from my own nationality and am even willing to lie about it (in addition to my genuine aversion towards British culture) is my desire to distance myself from the whole "English as a lingua franca" culture. I don't enjoy speaking English because I find the language hideous and low-vibrational and prefer to speak Spanish all the time whenever I'm in Spain or any other Hispanophone culture. Spanish uplifts my mood and brings me joy and makes me feel more extroverted and sociable. But being a native Anglophone by accident of birth makes one a target for L2 learners/speakers regardless of whether one likes it or not. And I personally don't want to be a target for L2 learners/speakers since I overwhelmingly love Spanish and detest speaking English. Lying about my nationality would help me avoid that.

I personally wouldn't speak English at all if it weren't for the few monolingual family members who I still talk to, my childhood friend @Pixel--Dude and this forum (which really is something special and one of a kind 8) ). I'd only ever speak Spanish and whatever other foreign languages I might happen to be learning if it weren't for those people.

In Spain, I often tell escorts that I'm Irish whenever I go to see a Latina escort and she asks me where I'm from. My mother's family is Irish, after all. I've never even set foot in Ireland though! :lol:
Natural_Born_Cynic wrote:
July 12th, 2023, 12:43 pm
And I am sorry, you can't really escape from stereotypes.
You can't escape from stereotypes but you can circumvent them by posing as another nationality. :lol:
Natural_Born_Cynic wrote:
July 12th, 2023, 12:43 pm
Many Americans also like the British accent because thanks to Harry Potter, James Bond, Guy Ritchie, Spice Girls, Monty Python, Lord of the Rings, and many others.
Dude, I seriously don't even know any of those people except for @jamesbond. And he left the forum age's ago! Lol!
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Re: Lying about one's own nationality

Post by Natural_Born_Cynic »

@Lucas88

I understand what you mean. I think even as an Korean American, I find I like Latinos better than my East Asian counterparts. East Asians are too rigid and anal retentive bunch. And similar to your aversion to English, I find the Korean language sound really jarring, angry, and/or some times excessively whiny. Some Koreans, when they speak, I just want to punch them in the face for being both whiny and aggressive asshole at the same time :lol:

And that sucks that those stupid British tourists went to Spain and wrecked everything over there. I think I have read this on the news decades ago... And I pity those poor Spanish people from suffering from those asshole Brits acting like chavs. They kind of ruined it for everyone. I would lie about being British in Spain too if my countrymen f*cked things up over there or I'll get a beating or two. :lol: :wink:

It must've suck that you were born in the wrong ethnicity and wrong nation. Same for me too. Even I am Korean, I don't feel Korean, I can't connect with the culture and the people, and I don't have anything memorable or endearing from other Koreans...

To answer your original question, for me I don't have to lie about my nationality because no body around me gives a f*ck that I'm Korean or not.
White people just assume that I'm just some random Chinese guy and think nothing else until I tell them I'm Korean. But they don't really change the way they treat me. White people tends to treat me "neutral". East Asians - neutral to bad. Black and Latino people also don't care if I am Korean. Nothing special about being Korean.

The British pop culture references I made were how Americans in general perceive British people for your reference. Those are the preconceived notions that American people hold for British people based on Hollywood and British media itself.
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Re: Lying about one's own nationality

Post by Lucas88 »

yick wrote:
July 12th, 2023, 4:03 pm
I don't care to respond to all that except you are completely misinformed about what a 'third culture kid' is. If you were brought up in Dorset all your life to two British parents then that aint you or anywhere near approaching it.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Third_culture_kid

That isn't you and you can't go around making up your own meaning of it.
I'm not misinformed about the meaning of "third culture kid". I think that you misunderstood my point.

I wasn't claiming to be a third culture kid in the traditional sense; I said "like one of those third culture kids", meaning "similar to", "akin to", "resembling", but not the same. You should at least read my post properly and try to understand my point within its broader context before lecturing me on correct definitions. :roll:

What I meant to say is that I'm so different from the typical British person and so socially maladjusted in British society that I find myself feeling like an alien both among British people and Spaniards, as though I subjectively don't feel fully part of either culture, even though I fit in much better in Spain and have experienced a way better social life there. That was my point.
yick wrote:
July 12th, 2023, 4:03 pm
The facts are, if you were in the shit in Latin America, you would go to the British Embassy, if you went to the Spanish Embassy, they would direct you to the British Embassy.
What does this have to do with my thread? What kind of passport you hold and what embassy you go to is simply a legal question. Nationalities can be acquired and renounced. I don't understand why you're even mentioning this. :?
yick wrote:
July 12th, 2023, 4:03 pm
Also, there are many Caucasians in Latin America. They're not going to be bothered about some white guy speaking Spanish well however he looks.
I sense that you're getting a bit emotional here. Are you perhaps upset that you as a non-Caucasian (half-Peruvian if I remember correctly) aren't as popular with the ladies in Latin America as you'd like to be?

I'm a Caucasian guy and my experience in Peru and elsewhere in Latin America says otherwise. In Lima and other Peruvian cities I had girls hitting on me frequently. Sorry, but your little jab about them supposedly not being bothered doesn't hold any water.
yick wrote:
July 12th, 2023, 4:03 pm
I didn't say YOU had an underlying acceptance of hating other cultures - I said British society - which it does. It cannot even be argued against.
Mmmmmm. :? That's what I interpreted when I read this:
the reason you hate your own culture because in our country, there is an underlying acceptance of hating cultures - not British but it isn't rare to hear the hatred of French culture or German culture or whomever and it is accepted
But yeah, of course I don't dispute your point about the existence of an underlying acceptance of hating other cultures. It's a reality. In fact, I don't like certain cultures myself. People have personal preferences.
yick wrote:
July 12th, 2023, 4:03 pm
I completely understand why you don't like British culture and in fact I agree with you on a lot of it - especially comparing it to the various Latin American cultures where people are polite, friendly, gentle and cultured - and they are and you are correct that you would prefer that as do I but as a citizen of a Latin American country, most people I know from that Latin American country would find it a bit weird that you would deny being British or lying about it when there is no real need and they would judge you on your actions and behaviours than your nationality - if you spent time there as you claim you would know this already. Being British is nothing to lie about - nobody would care that much - but if it is bringing you some solace, keep doing it.
I already know that people in Latin America aren't going to mind that I'm British (most people were indeed friendly with me). It's just that I myself don't like being associated with British culture because I have a pathological hatred of it. In fact, that's what this whole thread is about: - my own subjective hatred for my native culture, not whether or not people will accept me.

But the truth is that I've never lied about my nationality in Latin America, only in Japan. In Latin America I just simply tell people that I don't like the UK if ever the topic is brought up and then passionately praise their culture and language as beautiful and superior (and my praise is always sincere). 8)
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Re: Lying about one's own nationality

Post by yick »

Lucas88 wrote:
July 12th, 2023, 6:28 pm

I'm not misinformed about the meaning of "third culture kid". I think that you misunderstood my point.

I wasn't claiming to be a third culture kid in the traditional sense; I said "like one of those third culture kids", meaning "similar to", "akin to", "resembling", but not the same. You should at least read my post properly and try to understand my point within its broader context before lecturing me on correct definitions. :roll:
You're not even 'akin' to being a third culture kid or anything like it, you are someone with from I have read of British/Irish parentage who lived in the UK until adult age and then you left for Japan/Spain/South America - I don't know your life story but that you don't like British culture has nothing to do with being anything like a 'third culture kid' you have adopted an identity revolved around the Spanish language which is nothing like anywhere being a 'third culture kid'. You're a British guy who speaks decent Spanish who doesn't like British culture - you still only have British nationality and that is the main culture you were brought up in.

What I meant to say is that I'm so different from the typical British person and so socially maladjusted in British society that I find myself feeling like an alien both among British people and Spaniards, as though I subjectively don't feel fully part of either culture, even though I fit in much better in Spain and have experienced a way better social life there. That was my point.
Fair enough.

What does this have to do with my thread? What kind of passport you hold and what embassy you go to is simply a legal question. Nationalities can be acquired and renounced. I don't understand why you're even mentioning this. :?
Because from a legal standpoint, you're British, whatever country you enter, your identity to them is British, if you commit a crime there, you're British, if you marry a Colombian or a Uruguayan or whatever, you would be identified in the paperwork as British - you can make up bullshit lies with people who hardly know you but delve deeper then it has to come out what you are.

Sure, you can renounce your nationality - doesn't Spanish citizenship take ten years? Most Latin American citizenships take five and Peru is the shortest with a two year waiting time so best get a move on.

I sense that you're getting a bit emotional here.


No
Are you perhaps upset that you as a non-Caucasian (half-Peruvian if I remember correctly) aren't as popular with the ladies in Latin America as you'd like to be?
I do fine, what I don't do is go lying to people around hating the culture I was brought up in and having a toxic self view over something I have no control over because that would make me an idiot, I think it's weird and I'll tell you right now, most people I know in Latin America would think you're weirdo too if you actually did that. It's like hating your eye colour or your height. Silly and you should have grown out of such self hatreds as an adult.

That and you have nothing that I would want.

I'm a Caucasian guy and my experience in Peru and elsewhere in Latin America says otherwise. In Lima and other Peruvian cities I had girls hitting on me frequently. Sorry, but your little jab about them supposedly not being bothered doesn't hold any water.
They're not - did you actually lie to them and tell them you were Icelandic or whatnot? When they would not have given two shits what you are? And you don't think you're full or unresolved issues and toxicity?


But yeah, of course I don't dispute your point about the existence of an underlying acceptance of hating other cultures. It's a reality. In fact, I don't like certain cultures myself. People have personal preferences.
We sorted that one out.

I already know that people in Latin America aren't going to mind that I'm British (most people were indeed friendly with me). It's just that I myself don't like being associated with British culture because I have a pathological hatred of it. In fact, that's what this whole thread is about: - my own subjective hatred for my native culture, not whether or not people will accept me.
But it's silly because you are British whether you want to be or not, however, it doesn't have to be the main identifier of your own identity, like you said, give it up and become Spanish or Peruvian or Colombian - I mean, they gave that nationality to that dipshit Zac Morris who went onto trash their country. We seem to both agree, nobody cares that you are British and if you tell people that you are - they will make some superficial bonding statement about liking Harry Potter or Oasis or supporting Manchester.

You are lying to them about something they don't care about - which we both agree is fact - so it is more down with your unresolved issues and the toxicity you still hold about being British than it has to do with their reaction to you.

This is all about you - which you need to sort out, you sound like a very unhappy person with low self esteem.
But the truth is that I've never lied about my nationality in Latin America, only in Japan. In Latin America I just simply tell people that I don't like the UK if ever the topic is brought up and then passionately praise their culture and language as beautiful and superior (and my praise is always sincere). 8)
Oh riiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiight - well there is no need to lie about your nationality in Latin America, it is a really silly thing to do.
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Yohan
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Re: Lying about one's own nationality

Post by Yohan »

Lucas88 wrote:
July 10th, 2023, 5:59 pm
You guys all know my story already. I was born and raised in the UK but was always a misfit there and hate everything about the country. I therefore do everything I can to distance myself from my own nationality.
Not sure if you mean nationality (citizenship) or ethnicity.

About myself I can tell you plenty of unpleasant stories why I left Europe forever, but I also have to say that I never had any reason to distance myself from what I am:
I am a white straight man from Europe, Austrian ethnicity (can prove my history back to my ancestors up to 1620), Austrian citizenship, German native speaker...

Living now in Asia (most of the time in Japan) since more than 40 years, I never came back to Europe. However I see no reason why I should lie about my nationality - I am Austrian citizen with Japanese permanent residence status, what is wrong with this?

------
As a Caucasian foreigner in Japan, you typically attract a lot of attention and sometimes get Japanese randos in the street or some other public place coming up to you and asking for English practice. Some of them can be quite a nuisance. Or alternatively you speak to a cashier or whoever in reasonably good Japanese and they see your Caucasian gaijin face and respond to you in broken English.
I don't see anything wrong with that, these Japanese people doing this have no bad intention, they are just curious - just react with patience and be friendly to them.

If you live a bit outside of a smaller Japanese city (like here in Okayama/Kurashiki with only 1.2 million people) where Western foreigners are rare, this might happen from time to time, but not so often, as Japanese people usually consider others they don't know rather as 'invisible' ignoring their presence.
During my stay in Japan, I would simply tell people that I'm Spanish. After all, I already spoke fluent Spanish and most Japanese people are clueless about the different European nationalities. It was unlikely that anybody would figure out my white lie ("white" here meaning gaijin Caucasian foreigner ...
I would be careful to do this now, as Brazil-Japanese are one of the largest groups of foreigners (more than 200.000) in Japan and speak often better Portuguese than Japanese, and there are also Peru-Bolivia-etc. Spanish speaking Japanese around and they are everywhere - supermarket cashier, factory workers, doing farm work etc. (descendants whose parents or grandparents left Japan and who prefer to come back to Japan ...)
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Re: Lying about one's own nationality

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yick wrote:
July 12th, 2023, 6:46 pm
You're not even 'akin' to being a third culture kid or anything like it, you are someone with from I have read of British/Irish parentage who lived in the UK until adult age and then you left for Japan/Spain/South America - I don't know your life story but that you don't like British culture has nothing to do with being anything like a 'third culture kid' you have adopted an identity revolved around the Spanish language which is nothing like anywhere being a 'third culture kid'. You're a British guy who speaks decent Spanish who doesn't like British culture - you still only have British nationality and that is the main culture you were brought up in.
I was using the concept as an analogy for how I feel as misfit in the UK and foreign resident in Spain not feeling like fully a part of either culture. That should have been obvious from the explanation that I gave immediately after. No need to get caught up on this so much. I get the feeling that you're just wanting to argue for the sake of arguing at this point.
yick wrote:
July 12th, 2023, 6:46 pm
Because from a legal standpoint, you're British, whatever country you enter, your identity to them is British, if you commit a crime there, you're British, if you marry a Colombian or a Uruguayan or whatever, you would be identified in the paperwork as British - you can make up bullshit lies with people who hardly know you but delve deeper then it has to come out what you are.

Sure, you can renounce your nationality - doesn't Spanish citizenship take ten years? Most Latin American citizenships take five and Peru is the shortest with a two year waiting time so best get a move on.
But your original argument was that I will always be "culturally British" by virtue of having been brought up in the UK. So what does a passport and legal paperwork have to do with any of this? Even if I did obtain Spanish or Colombian citizenship - something that is a real possibility given my own HA plans -, you'd still make the same argument anyway. That's why your point about passports and embassies and whatnot is superfluous.
yick wrote:
July 12th, 2023, 6:46 pm
But it's silly because you are British whether you want to be or not, however, it doesn't have to be the main identifier of your own identity, like you said, give it up and become Spanish or Peruvian or Colombian - I mean, they gave that nationality to that dipshit Zac Morris who went onto trash their country. We seem to both agree, nobody cares that you are British and if you tell people that you are - they will make some superficial bonding statement about liking Harry Potter or Oasis or supporting Manchester.

You are lying to them about something they don't care about - which we both agree is fact - so it is more down with your unresolved issues and the toxicity you still hold about being British than it has to do with their reaction to you.

This is all about you - which you need to sort out.
Yes, it's about me. I do indeed have long-standing unresolved identity issues due to being associated with a culture which I really don't like or fit into and speaking natively a language which doesn't resonate with me. I just see it as a preference thing. Like anybody else, I like what I like and dislike what I dislike. I simply gravitate towards that which I find pleasant (Hispanic culture and people, Spanish language, Latinas, etc.) and instinctively distance myself from that which I don't resonate with (British culture and people, English language, British females, etc.). I don't think that I could ever change the way that I feel. I even understand that such a rejection of one's native culture could potentially be psychologically harmful. I just don't realistically know how to change my attitude since I would only be lying to myself (a deeper and more serious level of dishonesty which I wouldn't feel comfortable doing).
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Re: Lying about one's own nationality

Post by yick »

Lucas88 wrote:
July 12th, 2023, 8:24 pm


I was using the concept as an analogy for how I feel as misfit in the UK and foreign resident in Spain not feeling like fully a part of either culture. That should have been obvious from the explanation that I gave immediately after. No need to get caught up on this so much. I get the feeling that you're just wanting to argue for the sake of arguing at this point.
A third culture kid is someone who is traversing in more than one culture and they have grown up in a different culture to the one their parents grew up in - these kids who have British parents but have grew up in Dubai or the States or wherever - they have British citizenship and an American accent - you are a guy who left the UK as an adult and gone to live in Spanish speaking countries - and I am not arguing for the sake of arguing, I am replying to your points.

But your original argument was that I will always be "culturally British" by virtue of having been brought up in the UK. So what does a passport and legal paperwork have to do with any of this? Even if I did obtain Spanish or Colombian citizenship - something that is a real possibility given my own HA plans -, you'd still make the same argument anyway. That's why your point about passports and embassies and whatnot is superfluous.
Well, yes, you will always know who Dot Cotton is, the colours of what Chelsea play in - what BT is and what it stands for, the name of the place where you can buy stamps and where you can buy your TV licence, you know what a crunchie is etc etc - none of these things are going to be wiped out because you become whatever nationality you want to be - you grew up in the UK to a British family and you lived there as an adult - there is nothing wrong with any of that - this isn't about me is it? It is about these other people you want to lie to - you will always be culturally British, your knowledge is centred around the UK - what do you know about growing up in Spain or Latin America where you can bond with these people - not a lot because you grew up in the UK.


Yes, it's about me. I do indeed have long-standing unresolved identity issues due to being associated with a culture which I really don't like or fit into and speaking natively a language which doesn't resonate with me. I just see it as a preference thing. Like anybody else, I like what I like and dislike what I dislike. I simply gravitate towards that which I find pleasant (Hispanic culture and people, Spanish language, Latinas, etc.) and instinctively distance myself from that which I don't resonate with (British culture and people, English language, British females, etc.). I don't think that I could ever change the way that I feel. I even understand that such a rejection of one's native culture could potentially be psychologically harmful. I just don't realistically know how to change my attitude since I would only be lying to myself (a deeper and more serious level of dishonesty which I wouldn't feel comfortable doing).
There is nothing wrong with disliking a culture that IS toxic - I agree with you that it is and the country is full of angry, depressed people, many are leaving and 5 million British citizens already live abroad - I do as well, it isn't like I am at odds with your opinion but what you could do I suppose is find a Latin American country which has a short qualifying time for citizenship and then renounce your British citizenship and then you can say you're a legal Colombian or Spaniard or whatever you choose.

Your challenge in your OP is what reasons are there not to lie? My point is that there is very little point to it, as you know most Latin Americans will take you on by the way you behave and present yourself - I am not as knowledgeable about Spanish attitudes - I suppose in the tourist destinations the British do have bad reputations but I never go to those places anyway.
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Re: Lying about one's own nationality

Post by Lucas88 »

yick wrote:
July 12th, 2023, 8:40 pm
Well, yes, you will always know who Dot Cotton is, the colours of what Chelsea play in - what BT is and what it stands for, the name of the place where you can buy stamps and where you can buy your TV licence, you know what a crunchie is etc etc - none of these things are going to be wiped out because you become whatever nationality you want to be - you grew up in the UK to a British family and you lived there as an adult - there is nothing wrong with any of that - this isn't about me is it? It is about these other people you want to lie to - you will always be culturally British, your knowledge is centred around the UK - what do you know about growing up in Spain or Latin America where you can bond with these people - not a lot because you grew up in the UK.
Bro, I had to look up who Dot Cotton is. I don't watch British soap operas for women! 😂

Those things that you mentioned about football teams, TV shows, chocolate bars and such are just trivialities. They're things that have no bearing on my life at all and to which I don't give any thought. I'm actually surprisingly clueless about a great deal of British pop culture, TV references and trivia. I always found British TV lame even as a kid and instead preferred the American TV programming that we used to get because it featured entertaining things like WWF wrestling, hilarious late-night adult cartoons, well-made and interesting series, and awesome movies. Even as a kid I tended to live in my own little bubble.

I know surprisingly more than I should about Spanish-language music, Spanish history and cultural references even though I didn't grow up there. When you have a strong interest in a foreign culture and then live there for a significant period of time, you pick things up. After a while you're no longer that fresh-off-the-boat clueless foreigner but rather that foreign guy who knows a decent amount of stuff about x culture. People adapt, you know.

But the reality is that my close friendships with Spaniards and Latin Americans – and let's be clear that those friendships have been far more numerous than the ones I've had with British people – have all been primarily formed around shared interests (e.g., martial arts, intellectual interests, spiritual beliefs, etc.), not trivial things from childhood. People of different cultural origins form close friendships all the time. If that weren't the case then I wouldn't have my various friendships with Latinos that have lasted for years.
yick wrote:
July 12th, 2023, 8:40 pm
Your challenge in your OP is what reasons are there not to lie? My point is that there is very little point to it, as you know most Latin Americans will take you on by the way you behave and present yourself - I am not as knowledgeable about Spanish attitudes - I suppose in the tourist destinations the British do have bad reputations but I never go to those places anyway.
I didn't make a challenge in my OP. I even explicitly stated that I'm not particularly looking for advice. We humans are storytellers by nature and sometimes on HA some of us just like to post about our personal anecdotes. That's what I did here. I even said that I didn't think that anybody would even respond. Lol! I'm just pleased that it generated some discussion. 8)
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Re: Lying about one's own nationality

Post by MarcosZeitola »

Some of the biggest compliments I have received in life are when someone would talk to me in another language or assume I'm a "foreigner" lol. I remember going to some Turkish place and having some dude talk Turkish to me. Must have been the thick black moustache I had at the time. I've never felt quite "at ease" in my own country, much like Lucas. I never outright LIE about who I am, what I am, or where I am from, however. My accent would give me away. Little clues would betray me. You can never fully run away from who you are. And I would be mortified by the idea of being "caught" in such a shameful lie...

I had a Pakistani friend, a restaurant owner in the Philippines. He once told me that "when you are clean-shaven, you look Swedish... when you have a beard, you look like a light-skinned Afghan" lol. I'm neither; I'm Dutch and I think I more or less "look the part" but this guy didn't think so. Again, I consider such things a compliment but I don't get caught up in the delusion to the point where I'll present myself as something I'm not. Because that would just be insane lets be real here. :lol:
On "Faux-Tradionalists" and why they're heading nowhere: viewtopic.php?style=1&f=37&t=29144
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Re: Lying about one's own nationality

Post by galii »

@MarcosZeitola

Idol? Dr. Wiseton was always hating on self improvement.
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