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The Sinner's Prayer and Biblical Inerrancy are American Inventions, NOT from Traditional Christianity!

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The Sinner's Prayer and Biblical Inerrancy are American Inventions, NOT from Traditional Christianity!

Post by Winston » November 24th, 2018, 6:21 pm

Check this out. Here are some mind blowing facts that most American Christians don't know.

Did you all know that Evangelical Christianity, with its doctrine of the sinner's prayer guaranteeing you a ticket to heaven, and the doctrine of Biblical infallibility, are mostly AMERICAN inventions, and NOT part of traditional and historical Christianity? Not even the early Protestant leaders and founders advocated those doctrines. These ideas began slowly in revivalist movements in the 1700's but didn't become mainstream in America until the late 1800's and early 1900's. In a sense, they are modern American inventions. Not part of traditional Christianity. Not part of the Christianity of Jesus' original followers, nor of the Protestant Reformation, nor of the Church of England either or European churches either. They were not part of the Christianity that Queen Elizabeth I, William Shakespeare, Francis Bacon, King James (the one who authorized the King James Bible), etc believed in. No way man. They are modern American inventions.

All this is contrary to what Christian Americans like @Adama and @MrMan assume. When I was a Christian, I also assumed that modern Evangelical Christianity, the kind popularized by Billy Graham and American churches, was what the original followers of Jesus believed too.

Anyway, I Googled the origin of Evangelical Christianity, the Sinner's Prayer and the Doctrine of Biblical Inerrancy. All the links suggest that they are modern American inventions and American versions of Christianity, not historical or traditional at all.

See here:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evangelicalism

Where did the SInner's Prayer originate? Can you really get a guaranteed ticket to heaven by spending 5 minutes praying the sinner's prayer, as Evangelicals claim? Is a ticket to heaven and eternal life, really that cheap, like American fast food? Even if you become a total monster afterward?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sinner%27s_prayer

Great quote:

"Anyone can, and most Americans do, "believe" in Jesus rather than some alternative savior. Anyone can, and many Americans sometimes do, say a prayer asking Jesus to save them. But not many embark on a life fully devoted to the love of God, the love of neighbor, the moral practice of God's will, and radical, costly discipleship.

— David P. Gushee[24]"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sinner%27 ... ristianity
Absence of the Sinner's Prayer in historic Christianity

Other opponents of the Sinner's Prayer point out that no classic Christian confession of faith from any evangelical denomination in Christendom affirms that one must say the Sinner's Prayer to be saved; on the contrary, Baptist, Presbyterian and other Reformed, and other evangelical groups unanimously teach justification by faith alone. They argue that the Sinner's Prayer is a modern deviation from orthodox evangelicalism [27] and a deviation from classic evangelical methods of evangelism.[15] The Sinner's Prayer was not practiced before the 1700s.[citation needed] Therefore, to say that it is the way to be saved is to say that prior to the 1700s no one was saved.[citation needed]
Apparently, Billy Graham brought the sinner's prayer into the mainstream.

https://www.disciplestoday.org/bible-st ... l-practice
Billy Graham, Bill Bright

Billy Graham and his crusades were the next step in the evolution of things. Billy Graham was converted in 1936 at a Sunday-styled crusade. By the late 1940s it was evident to many that Graham would be the champion of evangelicalism. His crusades summed up everything that had been done from the times of Charles Finney through Billy Sunday except that he added respectability that some of the others lacked. In the 1950s Graham’s crusade counselors were using a prayer that had been sporadically used for some time. It began with a prayer from his Four Steps to Peace with God. The original four-step formula came during Billy Sunday’s era in a tract called Four Things God Wants you to Know. The altar call system of Graham had been refined by a precise protocol of music, trained counselors and a speaking technique all geared to help people ‘accept Christ as Savior.’

In the late 1950s Bill Bright came up with the exact form of the currently popular Four Spiritual Laws so that the average believer could take the crusade experience into the living room of their neighbor. Of course, this method ended with the Sinner's Prayer. Those who responded to crusades and sermons could have the crusade experience at home when they prayed,

"Lord Jesus, I need You. Thank You for dying on the cross for my sins. I open the door of my life and receive You as my Savior and Lord. Thank You for forgiving my sins and giving me eternal life. Take control of the throne of my life. Make me the kind of person You want me to be."

Later, in 1977 Billy Graham published a now famous work entitled, How to Be Born Again. For all the Scripture he used, he never once uses the hallmark rebirth event in the second chapter of the book of Acts. The cataract (blind spot) kept him away from the most powerful conversion event in all Scripture. It is my guess that it’s emphasis on baptism and repentance for the forgiveness of sins was incompatible with his approach.
Wow look. I was right. See below. The sinner's prayer thing was an American invention in the 20th century, or at least didn't become common until then. It was never a part of traditional Christianity, which taught that water baptism was required for salvation.

http://m.biblestudyguide.org/articles/p ... prayer.htm
The sinner's prayer, as we know it today, was invented by twentieth century preachers as a quick and easy way to save people. Unfortunately, it is a false doctrine.
More links and info:

https://www.christiancourier.com/articl ... blical-the

https://www.thegospelcoalition.org/blog ... rs-prayer/

http://www.bible.ca/g-sinners-prayer.htm

https://therealgospelofchrist.com/the-s ... is-a-joke/

https://carm.org/sinners-prayer

https://carm.org/what-is-sinners-prayer

https://www.christianitytoday.com/ct/20 ... rayer.html
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Re: Why the Bible teaches a Salvation by WORKS, NOT by Faith Alone!

Post by Winston » November 24th, 2018, 6:33 pm

Videos about the origins of the Evangelical "Sinner's Prayer" formula and how it's alleged to guarantee you a place in heaven, but is in fact a perversion of the Bible and Christianity and an invention of American churches. In fact, the early Protestant minsters such as Jonathan Edwards, George Whitfield, and John Wesley, all believed that God chooses who is saved, not we, and that once he saves someone, the person will exhibit specific signs and struggles. So it's up to God's choice and control, not ours. They taught that salvation comes after years of inner struggle with faith, not by your belief or your hope in something. It wasn't until evangelists like Billy Sunday that salvation became a cheap 5 minute prayer called "the sinner's prayer" which they claimed guaranteed your salvation.



As a ministerial student I have seen the "sinner's prayer" used over and over, even said to groups of children. I do not recall seeing a change in the life of anyone that I have seen lead through the sinner's prayer. I think peer pressuring a lost, sinner into saying a sinners prayer and then assuring them that they are thereafter a born again Christian is repugnant and a sin. Many false converts are made with the assurance from a Christian witness that they have been saved because they said a prayer. When I preach, I never offer someone to "pray to receive Christ". I preach the gospel and then tell them how to the Bible says you can be saved, I tell them when I am done to come talk to me if they want to (for counseling) or to go talk to God. Charles Spurgeon said, "If it is the fire of God working in a man's heart, it will be just as hot at eight o'clock tomorrow morning in my office as it is after the message."



Today, hundreds of millions hold to a belief system and salvation practice that no one had ever held until relatively recently. The sinners prayer is a invention that changes God's plan of salvation. The Sinner's Prayer is a modern apostasy and false teaching that prevents people from being saved. The earliest idea of sinners prayer is less than 500 years old. The prayer itself dates to the Billy Sunday era; however, the basis for talking in prayer for salvation goes back a few hundred years. It wasn't formalized as a theology until around the time of Billy Graham.
No one in the word of God ever prayed for their initial salvation. They did however believe, repent, confess Jesus and be immersed in his name in water for the forgiveness of their sins. So if you prayed the "sinners prayer" for your salvation, you are still lost in your sins, because it is not what God said to do.
How did the Sinner's Prayer evolve into what it is today? Although everyone was not following exactly what the Apostles taught after the Reformation, for the first time in over a thousand years the general populace was reading the Scriptures. Thanks in part to the invention of the printing press. Many still held to the importance of water baptism in the New Birth process, but because of Catholicism, it was not in the name of Jesus, as it changed in 325 AD to the titles father, son and Holy Ghost and was done three times for the newly formed trinity teaching. Also it was done by sprinkling on infants, because of a Catholics agreeing upon this in 1311.
The majority still held to the validity of infant baptism even though they disagreed on it's significance. The influence of the preachers eventually led to the popular notion that one was forgiven at infant baptism but not yet reborn. Most Protestants were confused or ambivalent about the connection between rebirth and forgiveness.
The Great Awakening of the 1700's changed all of that. Though Protestants were lukewarm on the practice of baptism, Great Awakening preachers created an environment that made man aware of his need for an adult confession experience. The experiences that people sought were varied. Jonathan Edwards, George Whitfield and John Wesley furthered ideas of radical repentance and revival. Although there is much to be learned from their messages, they did not solve the problems of the practices associated with baptism and conversion.
Eventually, the following biblical passage written to and inspired for lukewarm Christians became a popular tool for the conversion of non-Christians:
"To the angel of the church in Laodicea write: These are the words of the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the ruler of God's creation. ....Those whom I love I rebuke and discipline. So be earnest, and repent. Here I am! I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears my voice and opens the door, I will come in and eat with him, and he with me." (Revelation 3:14-20)
This passage was written explicitly for lukewarm Christians. Now consider how a lecturer named John Webb misused this passage in the mid 1700s as a basis of evangelizing non-Christians:
"Here is a promise of Union to Christ; in these words, I will come in to him. i.e. If any Sinner will but hear my Voice and open the Door, and receive me by Faith, I will come into his Soul, and unite him to me, and make him a living member of that my mystical body of which I am the Head." (Christ's Suit to the Sinner, 14)
Preachers heavily relied on Revelation 3:20. By using the first-person tense while looking into the sinner's eyes, preachers began to speak for Jesus as they exhorted, "If you would just let me come in and dine with you, I would accept you." Even heathens who had never been baptized responded with the same or even greater sorrow than churchgoers. As a result, more and more preachers of Christendom concluded that baptism was merely an external matter--only an outward sign of an inward grace. In fact, Huldrych Zwingli put this idea forth for the very first time during the early 1600's. Nowhere in church history or scripture was such a belief recorded.
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Re: Why the Bible teaches a Salvation by WORKS, NOT by Faith Alone!

Post by Winston » November 24th, 2018, 7:03 pm

Also, traditional Christians also did not believe that every word of the Bible was infallible and perfect either. As my Venetian friend Alex told me:

"To believe that books written by humans is perfect and infallible is unreasonable. The Bible does not need to be infallible or inerrant. The core teachings are what matters. Inspiration by God does not mean dictation."

No, traditional Christians in Europe were not dumb enough or unreasonable to believe that every word of the Bible must be perfect and error free. That was not reasonable or rational at all. And traditional people were not as dumb as modern Americans are. They didn't watch trash TV or eat fast food. They were more focused on spirituality, not consumerism. So they were far smarter in many ways than modern Americans.

In reality, the doctrine of Biblical inerrancy was invented in the 19th Century to counteract the teaching of Darwin Evolution in schools and the undermining of church authority, which began to waver. See links below.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biblical_inerrancy

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biblical_infallibility

https://www.thegospelcoalition.org/arti ... inerrancy/

https://www.tms.edu/m/TMS-Spring2016-Article-05.pdf

https://christianity.stackexchange.com/ ... -inerrancy
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Re: The Sinner's Prayer and Biblical Inerrancy Doctrines are American Inventions, not from Traditional Christianity!

Post by Winston » November 24th, 2018, 11:50 pm

Apparently the sinner's prayer is less than 500 years old. The famous Christian author, CS Lewis, said it was wrong and a perversion of Christian faith. See below.

http://www.bible.ca/g-sinners-prayer.htm

Image

The earliest notion of sinners prayer is less than 500 years old. It wasn't formalized as a theology until around the time of Billy Graham.

No one in the Bible ever prayed for their initial salvation. They did however believe, repent, confess Jesus and be immersed in water for the forgiveness of their sins. The sinners prayer is a an innovation that thwarts God's plan of salvation.

1. First they replaced believers baptism by immersion with infant baptism by sprinkling.

2. Second they later replaced baptism altogether with the "sinners prayer" so that baptism is no longer even part of the plan of salvation. If you prayed the "sinners prayer" for your salvation, you are still lost in your sins, because it is not what God said to do.

C.S. Lewis used the term "a great cataract of nonsense" to describe how people use a modern idea to construe Bible theology. One such example, perhaps the best example, is a conversion method called the Sinner's Prayer. It is more popularly known as the Four Spiritual Laws.

Lewis used this term to describe what happens when someone looks backward at the Bible based only on what he or she has known. Instead, an evangelical should first discern conversion practices from Scriptures and then consider the topic in light of two thousand years of other thinkers. As it is, a novel technique popularized through recent revivals has replaced the biblically sound practice.

Today, hundreds of millions hold to a belief system and salvation practice that no one had ever held until relatively recently. The notion that one can pray Jesus into his or her heart and that baptism is merely an outward sign are actually late developments. The prayer itself dates to the Billy Sunday era; however, the basis for talking in prayer for salvation goes back a few hundred years.

Consider the following appeal:

"Just accept Christ into your heart through prayer and he'll receive you. It doesn't matter what church you belong to or if you ever do good works. You'll be born again at the moment you receive Christ. He's at the door knocking. You don't even have to change bad habits, just trust Christ as Savior. God loves you and forgives you unconditionally. Anyone out there can be saved if they ... Accept Christ, now! Let us pray for Christ to now come into your heart."

Sound familiar? This method of conversion has had far-reaching effects worldwide as many have claimed this as the basis for their salvation. Yet, what is the historical significance of this conversion? How did the process of rebirth, which Jesus spoke of in John 3, evolve into praying him into one's heart? I believe it was an error germinating shortly after the Reformation, which eventually caused great ruin and dismay in Christendom. By supplying a brief documentation of its short, historical development, I hope to show how this error has served as "a great cataract of nonsense".
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Re: The Sinner's Prayer and Biblical Inerrancy are American Inventions, NOT from Traditional Christianity!

Post by Winston » November 25th, 2018, 12:33 am

My text message rants to Mr S and Alex about the sinners prayer and fast food theology in America:

[11/12, 7:52 PM] Winston: That sounds like a good book "Retro Christianity". I may get it.

I was gonna ask u something related to that topic. You know how modern christian evangelicals and fundamentalists in america believe that if u repent and invite jesus into your heart, known as "the sinners prayer", then u get saved forever and are guaranteed to go to heaven? Its in every evangelical gospel tract including chick publications.

Well thats the Christianity i was taught too in the early 80s. But i dont think that represents the Christianity that was taught and followed in europe in the last 2000 years right? It seems like cheap modern american fast food, quick and easy.

Am i right? I mean if its to easy to be saved and go to heaven then why did the american pilgrims and puritans try hard to live a life of chastity and purity and austerity? Why didnt they just spend 5 minutes praying the sinners prayer and then relax after that and stop trying to be so pure to get into heaven?

That leads me to conclude that evangelical christianity is a modern form that was made in america. Its not traditional christianity and its not what martin luther and john calvin and the protestants believed either. Is that right?

If so then its funny that evangelical christians in america today falsely assume that the original followers of Christ believed what they believed and so did the Protestant founders like martin luther, when in truth their version of christianity is a modern american invention, like fast food. Right? Lol

Have u wondered about this too. Itd be interesting to research what past historical christians believed. I doubt they believed that they could get to heaven by praying the sinners prayer for 5 minutes like i was taught in the 80s. Right? What u think?

[11/12, 8:36 PM] Winston: Itd be interesting to research and check whether martin luther and the protestant founders, or great theologians like thomas aquinas, ever taught the billy graham version of christianity of modern america, that u can get into heaven with a guaranteed ticket if u spend 5 minutes praying the sinners prayer, where you ask jesus to forgive you and come into your heart, thereby "accepting Christ as your lord and savior".

I highly doubt that any of them taught that. It was probably a modern american version of christianity invented in the mid or late 1800s. What do you think?

I highly doubt if the pilgrims or puritans of 1600s new england believed in the billy graham type of gospel christianity either. Lol

Likewise McDonald's didnt exist before modern america either. Lol. So i call it fast food theology. Lol

[11/12, 8:41 PM] Winston: What about queen elizabeth i, william shakespeare, francis bacon and king james, the one who authorized the king james bible?

Did any of them believe in the billy graham 5 minute gospel of accepting jesus as your lord and savior and then holding a guaranteed ticket into heaven? Lol. Is it that simple? Like buying a package meal at McDonald's? Lol

[11/13, 12:39 AM] Winston: I highly doubt they believed in the 5 minute salvation gospel of billy graham. Americans are so ignorant of history.

Most likely the christians of the past 2000 years before modern america, believed that one had to live a good moral life and follow jesus teachings to some reasonable degree, to get into heaven. One cannot simply pray the sinners prayer and then turn to evil and become a monster and still go to heaven, merely because the 5 minute sinners prayer gave them eternal life that cannot be lost. Thats ridiculous. No one in the past was dumb enough to believe that, even if they were protestant or anglican or catholic or orthodox.

So basically the idea was that you tried your best to be a good christian and have Christian values as the foundation of your behavior, and then ask God or Jesus for grace to make up for the rest because no one can be perfect, or as holy and selfless as St. Francis of Assisi.

I think that was the basic Christian mindset of the past 2 millennia. I highly doubt that they believed that a 5 minute sinners prayer would guarantee salvation that cannot be lost. Thats just unreasonable and cheap and makes no sense and is a perversion of scripture, which was probably meant to be taken metaphorically anyway, as tom harpur says, not literally. Most american christians probably dont know that though.
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Re: The Sinner's Prayer and Biblical Inerrancy are American Inventions, NOT from Traditional Christianity!

Post by Winston » November 25th, 2018, 12:38 am

Reply from Mr S to my rants. He suggests a book called "Retro Christianity". See link below.

Mr S:

I'm actually reading a book about your question I found at a used book store here. It's kinda a complex question. Maybe you should read the same book?



That's what that book talks about and how modern evangelism has strayed from them true teachings of Christ. The writer considers himself an evangelist but says the modern churches have lost their way.

The book talks shout how modern evangelism that is zealous comes from a reaction of liberals and progressives in the late 1800"s to modernize the religion and bring elements of humanism into it. You gotta Read the book if goes into all the history. But what your saying is correct also. Why don't you get a minister's license? Ha ha you could preach the word better than most established ministers.
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Re: The Sinner's Prayer and Biblical Inerrancy are American Inventions, NOT from Traditional Christianity!

Post by Neo » November 25th, 2018, 7:36 am

This is one matter that is mostly irrelevant.


Besides that, there's no point in discussing such matters with unbelievers. It's pointless. There are some arguments that are not worth it. This is one of them.
Salvation is the free gift of God simply for believing that Jesus is the Son of God, and it can't be lost; the only repentance necessary is the change of mind from unbelief to belief, because salvation is not about turning from sin because it is without works. Jesus, the Savior kept all the commandments in absolute perfection for us, ∴ salvation is without works, and He died for our sins, taking the eternal penalty for us.

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Re: The Sinner's Prayer and Biblical Inerrancy are American Inventions, NOT from Traditional Christianity!

Post by Aron » November 27th, 2018, 10:18 am

@Winston

Why do you still believe in Christianity? I know you were indoctrinated into it when you were young, as you've described in detail on your debunkingskeptics site, but you've had plenty of time to see through it, and have seen through all sorts of fallacies in Christianity before, as you have pointed out in this forum and other places online. What makes you still attached to it?

As for the main claims here, I partly agree, Christianity in the new testament does tell people to take actions to be allowed into heaven. But those actions are essentially to abandon all their worldly possessions and become poor before they're seen as worthy. It's a very anti-life belief system where actively getting rid of everything that makes you successful is seen as good. It doesn't promote anything active and helpful in people's lives, instead it just gives them a lot of mental limits and tells them to restrain their mind so they don't question Christianity and get sent to eternal hell. At other times, it tells them that all they have to do to go to heaven is believe, both of these lines of thinking are in the new testament, they're just contradictory. Or i should say, not really contradictory, as the goal in creating Christianity wasn't to create something coherent and true, but to create something that'll string people along into obedience one way or another. The active personalities are funneled into abandoning what helps them and spreading Christianity throughout society while the passive personalities are told they just must believe wholeheartedly and not dare to question it as they accept Christianity taking over society. Leaving two contradictory options lets people pick and choose what they like and fall in line one way or another, their cognitive dissonance is going to be too strong to question it and Christians didn't exactly rule peacefully anyways so nobody was going to get away with questioning it once it took over. It also just shows Christianity was a work in progress, it was not a true historical account, updates were made to it over time.

So, regardless of whatever you believe is true about this individual Christian doctrine, I cannot see why you still believe the religion. First of all you should know it's not true, but even if magically the Christian myth was true and God existed, it wouldn't matter, there would be no reason to see the religion as morally righteous in any way. It's anti free thought, it's all about blind obedience to authority, and it doesn't even provide real helpful teachings for people's lives. It tells people to cast away all their earthly possessions and become poor if they want a good afterlife, and constantly threatens all believers with eternal torture if they fail to believe hard enough. Eternal torture or just being erased depending on what biblical passage you're looking at, including in the New Testament several times. Jesus even tells believers to cut off their hand or any body part if they even think of sinning with it. Which i suppose means most Christian men should be hand-less by the age of 15 or 16. Clearly this is an authoritarian control structure designed to manipulate people into obedience as you have pretty much pointed out before in this forum.

What good do you even extract out of it? It seems like based on everything else you believe in, Christianity's hardly compatible with most of your ideas. For example your debunkingskeptics site says there are real psychics, but Christianity would say 'Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live' and say you should be hoping they are burned at the stake. Which you certainly don't agree with. Your site often says Reincarnation is true, which is directly incompatible with the ideas of either an eternal heaven or an eternal hell. You have a thread questioning if Anti-Aging or aging reversal could be possible. Pretty much every human is concerned about if that will be invented in their lifetimes or not, but Christianity would absolutely say no to it. According to their religion, all Christians should categorically refuse immortality if scientists invented a method to extend the human lifespan long enough to invent another extension before said people died, until they fully figured anti aging out for good, assuming that's possible. It's right in the Old Testament, Adam and Eve are apparently evil in that story due to wanting to eat something that grants immortality. While wisdom and knowledge of good and evil, is of course, somehow also evil, since Christianity is anti-thought.

All i can think of that you might say is some mention of the Golden Rule in christianity, but if this is really the only thing Christians can think of that's good about it, i just don't know what to say. That's just a moral tenet that has nothing to do with Christianity in particular, it's being a respectful person. I can think of some things to ask though. Do you actually go to church? Do you pray to God? Just how much of Christianity do you really believe in? And in what ways does Christianity and any specific teachings of it actually help your life?
So what exactly does Christianity teach that you think is good?

I should accompany this by some positive things that Christianity definitely doesn't teach, though, so you don't just think I have no constructive criticism here. Christianity doesn't teach people to take control of their lives and increase their wealth and the prosperity of their community. It doesn't teach people to be open minded and think critically so they can learn and develop more. It doesn't tell people to develop habits that will improve their lives, for example it does not teach people the scientifically validated practice of meditating even just a few minutes a day to focus their mind, clear it of distractions, and plan out what they will do. It mostly focuses on its idea of an afterlife and what people should not do instead of what they actually should to become better people, which is why i say it's anti-life.Hopefully some of this might convince you a bit that Christianity is just not good at all and that you really shouldn't believe in it either.

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Re: The Sinner's Prayer and Biblical Inerrancy are American Inventions, NOT from Traditional Christianity!

Post by MrMan » November 28th, 2018, 8:45 pm

I do not know if the term 'biblical innerency' might be American. I don't know. But the general concept is definitely older than that. Earlier Protestants had very similar views on the Bible, and the Roman Catholic church even has a statement along the lines of inerrency from one of their councils.

As far as "the sinner's prayer" goes, there seem to be a multitude of unthinking evangelicals who think that salvation is a matter of repeating a prayer. Presumably, the rationale behind repeating a prayer has to do with verses about confessing Jesus as Lord in Romans 10:9-10. Some 'sinner's prayers' pretty much follow through Romans 10:9-10. That was what I was familiar with in the 1980's.

Sadly, there are many evangelical preachers who do not even explain that Jesus died on the cross and rose from the dead, and want members of the audience to quickly repeat a prayer to 'ask Jesus into your heart' or 'give your life to the Lord' or something like that. A Hindu who had never heard of Jesus could walk into a service like that and repeat a prayer without ever having heard the Gospel.

So there are preachers like that and church members like that out there, who do not make the distinction between the way they do things as an attempt to implement a Biblical truth, versus the Biblical truth. They seem to think the 'ritual' of repeating a prayer is what saved, while forgetting the important things taught in the Bible related to repentence, faith, salvation, baptism, etc.

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Re: The Sinner's Prayer and Biblical Inerrancy are American Inventions, NOT from Traditional Christianity!

Post by Winston » November 28th, 2018, 11:43 pm

@Aron,
Like I told you many times before, religion is not 100 percent true or 100 percent false. It's more complicated than that. Haven't you read Carl Jung or Joseph Campbell? They will tell you the same, that religion is not literal truth, but it is not completely false and valueless like bozos like Christopher Hitchens or Richard Dawkins claim. Don't you agree?

Can you explain this:

viewtopic.php?p=318694#p318694

Or this:

viewtopic.php?f=15&t=7314

I've been seeking answers to such paradoxes and discrepancies for a long time. It's the crux of the mystery. But atheists won't deal with it, so they run away in fear. Show me where Sam Harris or Dawkins or Hitchens addresses those things above. They don't, because they can't. They aren't truth seekers or skeptics, but biased people with an agenda. They do not take into account all the data. I'm sure you know that, since you mentioned it of Michael Shermer as well. These are propagandists, not truth seekers.
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Re: The Sinner's Prayer and Biblical Inerrancy are American Inventions, NOT from Traditional Christianity!

Post by Aron » November 29th, 2018, 4:30 am

@Winston

The problem is it doesn't need to be 100 percent false in every way for it to not make sense anymore. I agree with you that Richard Dawkins and mainstream atheists are wrong to just say it's totally worthless and bad in every way, and that these people also have a very big financial incentive to never admit any possibility of being incorrect about any of the standard materialist belief system, as it would put their jobs at risk, so this leads them to always be hardcore deniers who focus mostly on debunking. Undeniably there are good Christians out there and some of them use their religion for good purpose. And if everyone became a hardcore atheist materialist, from a utilitarian point of view you can say there's a good chance society could get worse. But that doesn't mean Christianity's actually true and that people should believe many of the main things Christians say are true, or agree with them on what's right and wrong.

Winston wrote: However, that doesn't mean religion is false or worthless or bad, and that one should jump to atheism, as atheists want you to think. No. Because religion still has value in connecting people to real transformative power which can change lives and produce miracles, healings, answered prayers, inner transformation, etc which are very real and documented.
But just because positive results were produced does not mean the religion is true. It doesn't mean that an all powerful God exists who's watching your every move and judging you every second and getting ready to torture you for eternity. Christianity has also produced many negative results. Could it be said that Christianity has produced 'miracles' like answered prayers or healing at a rate beyond what normal chance would seem to dictate, I think the answer is yes, but that doesn't mean Christianity's claims like a historical Jesus who was able to heal people and resurrect the dead, the Christian afterlife story of eternal worship of God or eternal torture, an omnipotent God, etc, are true. The answer is that these results Christianity can produce are half placebo and half actual results produced by mass belief, but not Christianity being literally true. Inevitably there must be some actual mechanism for how these sorts of examples of Christians using praying for others to be healed are specifically able to produce healing in other people over a distance, but whatever it is, it does seem to exist and produce real effects.

So even though Christianity is not logical at all, still it has:

1. Produced many miracles, healings, and answered prayers, which cannot be explained by coincidence.
2. Prevented suicides in hotels with Bibles in the drawer or similar situations.
3. Reformed many drug addicts and prison convicts, and even mafia members too. (e.g. Michael Franzese)
4. Changed lives and caused inner transformations in people.

All of this is very real and well documented. I seen and experienced it too. A hoax or a fantasy cannot do all that, thus the atheist comparison of God with the easter bunny falls flat on its face and is invalid. Thus Christianity must connect one to some REAL power in the universe, both inner and outer, both physical and spiritual power. That cannot be denied.
The first one is true but it doesn't make Christianity true, as far as i know you've agreed with this exact point of view before, that the positive results believers get when they do what Christianity tells them to are due to a psychic phenomenon caused by mass belief. Christianity might have prevented some suicides but it's definitely caused others. People in other religions or just non religious people can also get out of drug addiction and criminal lifestyles. It certainly causes some inner transfomations but i can't agree that it's really a good religion. For example i do not see why anyone would go to church, pray to a God they don't have reason to believe exists,constantly fear being sent to hell by said God, and rely on the Bible for their idea of what's right and wrong. Not accusing you of that, just saying that many Christians do think like that. Christianity doesn't have to be 100% false for all the main routines that Christians do to not be worthwhile. So while I get it that many Christians are good and honest people i don't think their Christianity directly serves that part of them and develops it.

And to get back to what i asked earlier, do you do these Christian things, like going to church or praying to God? Or implement specific Christian ideas? Or do you believe in any Christian ideas about life after death or anything like that? It seems like you believe in a historical Jesus, but from what i remember of your posts on this site i'm not sure what else you really believe about Christianity. It doesn't seem like you think believing in Jesus is somehow necessary for people to exist after death or not go to hell, as many Christians do. It doesn't seem like you believe there's an all powerful God who is controlling your fate after death. And i don't think i've ever seen you agree with the Christian story in Revelations of the end of days. So i don't get how much of Christianity you believe in. It seems like you believe that Jesus existed/performed miracles but a lot more of your beliefs wouldn't be from Christianity. So the label 'Christian' wouldn't really seem fully appropriate for you, unless you both pray to and believe in God, in which case I suppose the label would fit.

I agree with the general gist of your argument in this thread, which seems like it's this:
"The sinner's prayer encourages people to think none of their actions in the world matter and that saying a few words is a 'get out of jail free' card. This is a bad idea that promotes negative and self-detrimental lifestyles."
You then say that people should earn going to heaven by works not just beliefs, but I don't agree with the christian idea of heaven overall, you could say i believe in a spiritualist idea of the afterlife.Where life after death is a natural phenomenon, not an act of divine intervention.I agree with the gist of the argument, that when people believe everything will be fine and dandy for them in an afterlife regardless of what they do as long as they say a few words, or at least they try to believe this, that this is bad for people and society since it makes them have no incentive to improve their lives. But I think the Christian version of this argument is flawed even if the arguers partially see what is so wrong about that idea. The Christian version of the argument is still one where an omnipotent 'celestial dictator' so to speak controls all, and somehow does nothing about the world, all the while demanding that everyone work hard enough to meet his standards for a good afterlife. I think you might agree with me that there can't be an omnipotent God while evil exists, and this is where i think accepting that there is no omnipotent God gets people to understand that action in the real world is needed to change it, it is not going to just all wrap up in some good way no matter what like Christianity tells people in the book of Revelations.

The other seeming part of the gist of your argument is that biblical inerrancy makes people dogmatic and almost robot-like as all they can do is obey the contradictory messages Christianity gives them. I agree but i just don't get how much of the bible you really believe in.

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Re: The Sinner's Prayer and Biblical Inerrancy are American Inventions, NOT from Traditional Christianity!

Post by Aron » December 15th, 2018, 11:43 am

@Winston

It's been multiple weeks, you've had time to respond. If you are not going to respond at all to any differing opinion, you might as well not post threads in the first place, it just creates an echo chamber where no thought, critical evaluation of the origins of an idea, etc, happens whatsoever.

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Re: The Sinner's Prayer and Biblical Inerrancy are American Inventions, NOT from Traditional Christianity!

Post by Moretorque » December 15th, 2018, 4:57 pm

Your finally waking up to how Mr. Wu operates.

Aron did you finally figure out your entire premise you base your reality on is in fact a lie ? I just watched a video the other day and they were claiming somebody is completely warping history with nothing but false- hoods and this has been going on for a very long time. From what they were saying everything you are taught in school today about how civilization developed to where we are today is in fact a lie, they are claiming the archeaology pertaining to these matters is being falsified big time .

Allow me to issue the currency and I care who not makes the laws, these are the truest words practically ever spoken for sure.
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Re: The Sinner's Prayer and Biblical Inerrancy are American Inventions, NOT from Traditional Christianity!

Post by Neo » July 19th, 2019, 8:21 am

Aron wrote:
November 27th, 2018, 10:18 am
@Winston

As for the main claims here, I partly agree, Christianity in the new testament does tell people to take actions to be allowed into heaven. But those actions are essentially to abandon all their worldly possessions and become poor before they're seen as worthy. It's a very anti-life belief system where actively getting rid of everything that makes you successful is seen as good.
Giving away possessions isn't for salvation or eternal life. The purpose is to have money to help the poor, as in feeding and clothing them. These are good works that one man can do for another man. It has nothing to do with entering into heaven.

Job from the Old Testament was very wealthy, in fact, he was the wealthiest man in his district.

Also, if a person is not careful in the way in which he tries to obtain riches, he risks defrauding other people, which is sin that will destroy the soul.
Aron wrote:
November 27th, 2018, 10:18 am
It doesn't promote anything active and helpful in people's lives, instead it just gives them a lot of mental limits and tells them to restrain their mind so they don't question Christianity and get sent to eternal hell. At other times, it tells them that all they have to do to go to heaven is believe, both of these lines of thinking are in the new testament, they're just contradictory.
The restrictions are against committing evil, against God and against other people. As for restraining of the mind, that might be some misinterpretation.

All a person has to do is believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, known as the Messiah to be saved (and not be distracted by damnable heresy, such as doubt about the virgin birth, doubt of Jesus' divinity, etc.).
Aron wrote:
November 27th, 2018, 10:18 am
So, regardless of whatever you believe is true about this individual Christian doctrine, I cannot see why you still believe the religion. First of all you should know it's not true, but even if magically the Christian myth was true and God existed, it wouldn't matter, there would be no reason to see the religion as morally righteous in any way. It's anti free thought, it's all about blind obedience to authority, and it doesn't even provide real helpful teachings for people's lives. It tells people to cast away all their earthly possessions and become poor if they want a good afterlife, and constantly threatens all believers with eternal torture if they fail to believe hard enough. Eternal torture or just being erased depending on what biblical passage you're looking at, including in the New Testament several times. Jesus even tells believers to cut off their hand or any body part if they even think of sinning with it. Which i suppose means most Christian men should be hand-less by the age of 15 or 16. Clearly this is an authoritarian control structure designed to manipulate people into obedience as you have pretty much pointed out before in this forum.
Believers are not threatened with eternal torture. They are exempted from it by the sacrifice that Christ made, by keeping all the commandments for them (which is why salvation is not by works but by faith alone), and then for the sins people commit, He died for the sins of all who believe in Him, taking their eternal penalty, exempting them from eternal punishment, death and torture. So believers are not under such threat.

No one is ever erased. Some evil people would certainly prefer to be annihilated but souls are eternal and will never cease to exist nor will they be deleted out of existence.

As for blind obedience to authority, God is the Creator. As the Creator, He has knowledge of what good and evil are, and He is above all temptation. Also, as God in the flesh, Christ, He died for our sins, making Him the Savior. Because He is the Savior, He is also Lord, meaning He is the Boss, the Commander, the spiritual Master. He has all the justification He needs to make commandments and demand obedience, but He is also merciful. However, for those who are idolators and/or they love hurting other people (loveless and cruel and have shown no mercy to innocent people), these will not be able to get saved because He rejects such people.

Aron wrote:
November 27th, 2018, 10:18 am

It's right in the Old Testament, Adam and Eve are apparently evil in that story due to wanting to eat something that grants immortality. While wisdom and knowledge of good and evil, is of course, somehow also evil, since Christianity is anti-thought.
God hates evil. Eating from the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil grants the knowledge of evil to the person, thereby the person knows how to sin, whereas before he had no knowledge of how to sin. It is not for human beings to do evil to one another. This is why it is better not to know evil. It wasn't about hiding wisdom. It was about protecting them from sin. But after that knowledge entered into the world, sin then abounds. The punishment for sin is death, and eternal death is hellfire.
Aron wrote:
November 27th, 2018, 10:18 am
I should accompany this by some positive things that Christianity definitely doesn't teach, though, so you don't just think I have no constructive criticism here. Christianity doesn't teach people to take control of their lives and increase their wealth and the prosperity of their community. It doesn't teach people to be open minded and think critically so they can learn and develop more. It doesn't tell people to develop habits that will improve their lives, for example it does not teach people the scientifically validated practice of meditating even just a few minutes a day to focus their mind, clear it of distractions, and plan out what they will do. It mostly focuses on its idea of an afterlife and what people should not do instead of what they actually should to become better people, which is why i say it's anti-life.Hopefully some of this might convince you a bit that Christianity is just not good at all and that you really shouldn't believe in it either.
After the Fall of Man, this life became a test for every person born into it, to see if the soul is worthy of eternal life or eternal death, based upon whether the person loves good or loves evil. Those who love evil will not be granted salvation. God is watching to see who is irredeemably wicked and who is acceptable. He will not have eternal fellowship with the wicked.

The saved will live again and forever with Him in eternity where there will be no sin, in the New World (New Earth). The choice to be eternally righteous was chosen when the person believed in Christ in this present world, which grants a person eternal righteousness, making them worthy to live with God. The wicked and the reprobate will not get to live again on the New Earth but will suffer eternal death in the form of punishments and torture.

This world is a very, very small sample of His glory. Those who refuse to believe will not get to experience the fullness of his kindness for those who choose Him. There is a world to come, which will be filled with abundance, joy, peace, love, fulfillment of pleasures, without death, without sin, without temptation.

There is nothing good about meditation (specifically the eastern practices of emptying the mind). The purpose of it is to allow demonic takeover of the person.
Salvation is the free gift of God simply for believing that Jesus is the Son of God, and it can't be lost; the only repentance necessary is the change of mind from unbelief to belief, because salvation is not about turning from sin because it is without works. Jesus, the Savior kept all the commandments in absolute perfection for us, ∴ salvation is without works, and He died for our sins, taking the eternal penalty for us.

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Re: The Sinner's Prayer and Biblical Inerrancy are American Inventions, NOT from Traditional Christianity!

Post by MrMan » July 23rd, 2019, 12:12 am

If an evangelical thinks that one is saved by repeating a prayer, he has a very shallow understanding of the Bible. The 'Sinner's prayer' was supposed to be a means of getting people to confess their faith in Christ and the gospel, not a means of salvation. I'll admit many have fallen into the error of thinking going through the ritual of repeating a prayer saves whether or not the Gospel is preached, a form of 'evangelism' that is an empty shell that is vaguely shaped like the real thing.

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