There's only one thing a person must do to be saved...

[Winston]

I dont understand the debate between MrMan and Adama. Dont they believe the same thing? Whats this thing about the KJV? Isnt the basic message the same in all Bible translations? This sounds like a trivial issue. MrMan tends to debate little things instead of seeing the big picture.

[Adama]

I dont understand the debate between MrMan and Adama. Dont they believe the same thing? Whats this thing about the KJV? Isnt the basic message the same in all Bible translations? This sounds like a trivial issue. MrMan tends to debate little things instead of seeing the big picture.

I don't care how much someone claims they love the Bible, if a person starts contending with me because I put "KJV" in place of Word of God, then they have a problem, and that problem is not with me, and they need to take it to God or the translators.

Ironically, a person claims the other Bibles are valid, when he also says that they have to make sure not to come close to copying each other, due to copyright. Okay well if they can't translate it the way it's supposed to read because of a silly thing like a copyright, then how can we trust it? These are things that just elude people for some reason.


Yet here I am talking about something which I do not want to talk about, because someone questions my integrity because of their lack of knowledge and their preferences.

[Adama]

I don't know how much of the KJV is lifted word for word from the Geneva Bible translation, but I did get a chance to spend a bit of time with the Geneva Bible in a college library once, and I remember that at least the first part of Matthew 10 is taken word for word from the Geneva Bible. Since it wasn't a legal copyright issue, that is nothing wrong with that. One of the problems we have nowadays with Bible translation is copyright, where new translators may stay away from the best translation of a verse because the best translations have been used. So they use bad grammar or less-than-ideal translation to make their translation copyrightable and non-actionable in court.

This is why he should not be bothering me with this issue, but he cannot see this in his wisdom.

He is bothering me because I put "KJV" instead of "Word of God." He is also saying the other Bible versions are valid.

However, what he also knows at the same time, yet for some reason it does not register to him?, is that those other Bible versions are not reliable.

And this also reveals that he knows nothing about the KJV if he has doubts at all about it. From where does a person take his doctrine then? From other Bibles which can't be relied upon?

And why bother me with this anyway? Because if you are saved then you know by reading what is consistent with the Word of God and what isn't. It is not a mystery reading. You can tell right away which Bible is the King James and which ones are others, because all the others are weak in the spirit, they are not sweet to the soul, and they do not make sense.

But this is not my issue. This is the issue of someone who has problems with his version of Christianity and it has become my problem. Such a person should go do his thing and leave me be.

[Adama]

That's silly. The KJV lifts portions right out of the Geneva Bible. Is the KJV an immitation, then? Open up to Genesis 1 and see how many verses they copied on the first page and what kind of changes they made.

This is a matter of knowledge, not a matter of copycat or plagiarism. Why does it matter if it is word for word? Are you kidding? Well of course it will come out nearly word for word if they are translating it the right away. That makes sense.

Yet for some people, what they see is that the KJV is a copy cat. It isn't a matter of being a copycat. That is a completely non-issue.

It is a matter of whether or not it is correct and true.

For some reason it must be a copy cat and not that, Hey, this is the best way to translate this sentence. And because the two sentences are the same, it must be that one copied from the other, and not that they came to the same conclusion as to the proper translation independently.

This stuff is just so obvious that it should not even need to be brought up. Just the fact that this is being disputed is a huge and major red flag.

See, this is just a distraction from someone who doesn't know what he is talking about and should just hold his peace.

The KJV-onlyism, for example, can detract from the Gospel. It's okay if some of these people get saved outside of a Independant Baptist church, too, and don't go the KJV-only route.

It's amazing that, knowing the other versions are basically unreliable because they must intentionally avoid translating according to the truth due to copyright, you go on to say that the book that is translated according to the truth, and not copyright, is not the best way.

This is the message?

Stop that! You're preaching nonsense!

Someone accuses me of speaking nonsense, but what he may consider is that the truth is just nonsense to him because he doesn't understand the truth. He is simply unable to perceive it. That's not my problem.

[Winston]

Notice that adamas Bible quotes say to BELIEVE. Theres a big difference between believing and knowing. Adama and Christian fundies do not know that their gospel is true. They BELIEVE it. If the bible were a book of facts then Christians would be knowers of its truth, not believers. So adama does not know. He just believes. Its on faith. This means the Christian gospel and Bible are not facts. They are beliefs. So adama is hence logically unjustified to be treating it as if it were facts. Thats one of the flaws in all this. But hes too brainwashed to see it of course.

[Adama]

Notice that adamas Bible quotes say to BELIEVE. Theres a big difference between believing and knowing. Adama and Christian fundies do not know that their gospel is true. They BELIEVE it. If the bible were a book of facts then Christians would be knowers of its truth, not believers. So adama does not know. He just believes. Its on faith. This means the Christian gospel and Bible are not facts. They are beliefs. So adama is hence logically unjustified to be treating it as if it were facts. Thats one of the flaws in all this. But hes too brainwashed to see it of course.

That's certainly interesting that you point this out, Winston.

All you have to do is believe. This is not to be contrasted with knowledge. In fact, believing is the way to receive knowledge, which I will explain.

Salvation is by faith alone, meaning all you have to do is believe, because Christ did all the work on both sides -- He kept the whole law and then He died for our sins. Therefore salvation is without works. All we must do is believe in Him: meaning all you must do is trust in Christ completely and He will exalt you to heaven.

As for knowledge, after the believer believes on Christ, the Lord gives the immediate gift of the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit is the one who interprets the Bible and reveals truths to the mind of the believer.

If you want enlightenment, do your best to memorize the proverbs. If you're saved, then that will bring you real knowledge. You won't be tossed up and down, confused or confounded, like the unbelievers.

And if you read the proverbs, you're going to need the Holy Ghost to interpret that. But once you know the proverbs, that is when you will have knowledge, because it gives you full knowledge of everything which you need to know. It basically tells you it gives you the discretion, wisdom, understanding and knowledge which you need to be successful (according to God) for this lifetime.

Because the commandment is a lamp and the law is light, and they illuminate the path of life. Without them the way is dark and people will not know what they're doing that's causing the problem. As Isaiah 59 says, they will stumble at noonday as in the night and grope like the blind. The other thing is, they will not even know they are in darkness.

[MrMan]

I dont understand the debate between MrMan and Adama. Dont they believe the same thing? Whats this thing about the KJV? Isnt the basic message the same in all Bible translations? This sounds like a trivial issue. MrMan tends to debate little things instead of seeing the big picture.

Okay, my bad. The KJV comment was just rather weird to me. I like the KJV and other translations, too. None of them are infallible. The translations aren't the canon.

Yet here I am talking about something which I do not want to talk about, because someone questions my integrity because of their lack of knowledge and their preferences.

Adama,

Stop making a mountain out of a molehill and accusing me of things I did not say (questioning your integrity). You derail your own threads sometimes. Let's get back on track.

[MrMan]

Notice that adamas Bible quotes say to BELIEVE. Theres a big difference between believing and knowing. Adama and Christian fundies do not know that their gospel is true. They BELIEVE it. If the bible were a book of facts then Christians would be knowers of its truth, not believers. So adama does not know. He just believes. Its on faith. This means the Christian gospel and Bible are not facts. They are beliefs. So adama is hence logically unjustified to be treating it as if it were facts. Thats one of the flaws in all this. But hes too brainwashed to see it of course.

In English you might say, "I believe that's right, but I'm not sure." But that is not Biblical faith/belief.

When Peter had faith that he could walk on water, he walked on water. Peter saw Jesus walking on water and asked to go out to Him. Jesus told him to come. So He went out there and walked on water. When Peter doubted, he sank.

If 'believe' or 'faith' in this story just meant Peter thought he might be able to walk on water, but he wasn't sure about it, he probably would have stayed in the boat. He could swim, but this was a pretty big storm and Peter was experienced with the waters and knew how dangerous they could be. They say that lake can get huge waves when those storms blow through. Peter believed Jesus, and stepped out of the boat and walked on water.

Being willing to die for your faith isn't just a matter of "I think this may be right." Many of the early Christians died rather than to deny their faith in Jesus Christ. The apostles who were witnesses of what He said and did and witnesses of His resurrection were willing to die for what they knew was right.

[Adama]

Adama,

Stop making a mountain out of a molehill and accusing me of things I did not say (questioning your integrity). You derail your own threads sometimes. Let's get back on track.

The problem is, you think your posts are relevant but they are not. They are a distraction at best.

[MrMan]

Winston, you often right about how things seem off in the US, like it's sucking the life out of you. But you'll write that about other places, too. Could it be that things have just been 'off' since you got away from Christ?

[Winston]

Winston, you often right about how things seem off in the US, like it's sucking the life out of you. But you'll write that about other places, too. Could it be that things have just been 'off' since you got away from Christ?

No i only write that about USA, canada and rich asian island nations like taiwan, hong kong and singapore. But the majority of countries in the world are not like that. They are more socially open and down to earth. So your assumption is off.

Evolving to higher spirituality is not a mistake. Transcending organized religion is ascension to higher consciousness, closer to God. You got things backward buddy.

[Misko_Varesanovic]

Winston, you often right about how things seem off in the US, like it's sucking the life out of you. But you'll write that about other places, too. Could it be that things have just been 'off' since you got away from Christ?

No i only write that about USA, canada and rich asian island nations like taiwan, hong kong and singapore. But the majority of countries in the world are not like that. They are more socially open and down to earth. So your assumption is off.

Evolving to higher spirituality is not a mistake. Transcending organized religion is ascension to higher consciousness, closer to God. You got things backward buddy.

Hi there Winston,
I hope that this post finds you in excellent spirits, and that you are having a great day.

I read some of your writing on the subject of religion and I found it very insightful.

I would be genuinely interested to know your thoughts on the Christian fundamentalist/evangelical movement in the US, specifically:

1. Why is there such a disconnect between the teachings of Jesus and so much of what evangelicals preach? For example, Jesus threw the money lenders out of the temple and warned us against judging others too harshly lest we be judged ourselves, while evangelical churches seem to be obsessed with material worldly gain and looking down fiercely on out-groups of almost any kind. I don't know if you have heard the song 'Jesus He Knows Me' by Genesis, but as a parody it seems to be pretty accurate.



2. Why is Christian fundamentalism so anti-spiritual? At the end of the day, rules and regulations are necessary, but alone these cannot sustain humans, and they must know this. It is almost as if some of these churches actively discourage any deeper metaphysical thought. I understand that this may be a successful short-term control mechanism, but especially in the age of the Internet I would have thought this approach was unsustainable. Won't most people just tune out after a while?

[Adama]

This Christianity you see on TV is not true Christianity. Real Christianity cannot usually be found on TV. Unfortunately, the mega millionaires you see on TV are not Christians either. They may think they are Christians, but most if not all of them are false prophets.

Now how do we know the difference? It is clear, just that some people refuse to make the distinction. In true Christianity, salvation is through Christ alone. That is, salvation is without works, and the only repentance necessary, is the change of mind from unbelief to belief in Christ, because Christ kept all the commandments and overcame the law for righteousness; meaning salvation is without works of any kind. There are no works to be saved: not through the front door and certainly not through the side door.

False Christianity comes in many forms: Repent to be saved; Salvation is by faith but also one must repent of sins; faith in Christ + sacraments.

Basically any salvation doctrine that is works based or faith plus works based (including repentance from sins) is false Christianity. Because Christ did all the work for salvation.

Every false religion teaches works or faith plus works for salvation. Christianity is the only one that is BY FAITH ALONE (or through believing alone, same thing).

So when people come out of the wood work with, "Why are these Christians doing X, Y and Z?" What they fail to realize is that those are not Christians. They just think they are. They are sidetracked and lost, and many of them are completely confounded and have no clue even after it's been shown to them.

The way to Christ is truly narrow, but many people somehow think they can get to God through any path they choose. Not so. The way to Christ is narrow. It is precise and accurate. And most people have both poor precision and poor accuracy.

[MrMan]

There are preachers of the gospel on TV, and there are those who promote false doctrine as well.

Adama,

Repentance faith are not diametrically opposed to one another. Preaching repentance does not mean one is not preaching salvation by faith. Repentance is not 'the works of the law' that Paul wrote about.

Jesus wanted repentance preached:

Luke 24
45 Then opened he their understanding, that they might understand the scriptures,
46 And said unto them, Thus it is written, and thus it behooved Christ to suffer, and to rise from the dead the third day:
47 And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.

Peter did this. He preached repentance:
Acts 2
37 Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do?
38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
39 For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.
40 And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation.
41 Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls.

Those people were baptized because they had faith in our Lord Jesus.

Peter also preached repentance here.
Acts 3:19
14 But ye denied the Holy One and the Just, and desired a murderer to be granted unto you;
15 And killed the Prince of life, whom God hath raised from the dead; whereof we are witnesses.
16 And his name through faith in his name hath made this man strong, whom ye see and know: yea, the faith which is by him hath given him this perfect soundness in the presence of you all.
17 And now, brethren, I wot that through ignorance ye did it, as did also your rulers.
18 But those things, which God before had shewed by the mouth of all his prophets, that Christ should suffer, he hath so fulfilled.
19 Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord.

Peter urged Simon to repent of his wicked thought he expressed to buy a gift of God.
Acts 8:22
Repent therefore of this thy wickedness, and pray God, if perhaps the thought of thine heart may be forgiven thee.

This expresses the understanding of the word 'repentance' early Christians in the Jerusalem church had:
Acts 11:18
When they heard these things, they held their peace, and glorified God, saying, Then hath God also to the Gentiles granted repentance unto life.

Paul pointed out Gentile idolatry and told them to repent, before telling his audience about Jesus.
Acts 17:30
And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:

Here Paul describes his preaching:
Acts 26:20-21
20 But shewed first unto them of Damascus, and at Jerusalem, and throughout all the coasts of Judaea, and then to the Gentiles, that they should repent and turn to God, and do works meet for repentance.
21 For these causes the Jews caught me in the temple, and went about to kill me.

Paul apparently believed that believing in Jesus had some implications for the individual's behavior. Jesus said we would know a tree by its fruit.

Notice the contrast between perishing and coming to repentance.
2 Peter 3:9
The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

[Adama]

There are preachers of the gospel on TV, and there are those who promote false doctrine as well.

Adama,

Repentance faith are not diametrically opposed to one another. Preaching repentance does not mean one is not preaching salvation by faith. Repentance is not 'the works of the law' that Paul wrote about.

Jesus wanted repentance preached:

Luke 24
45 Then opened he their understanding, that they might understand the scriptures,
46 And said unto them, Thus it is written, and thus it behooved Christ to suffer, and to rise from the dead the third day:
47 And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.

Peter did this. He preached repentance:
Acts 2
37 Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do?
38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
39 For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.
40 And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation.
41 Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls.

Those people were baptized because they had faith in our Lord Jesus.

Peter also preached repentance here.
Acts 3:19
14 But ye denied the Holy One and the Just, and desired a murderer to be granted unto you;
15 And killed the Prince of life, whom God hath raised from the dead; whereof we are witnesses.
16 And his name through faith in his name hath made this man strong, whom ye see and know: yea, the faith which is by him hath given him this perfect soundness in the presence of you all.
17 And now, brethren, I wot that through ignorance ye did it, as did also your rulers.
18 But those things, which God before had shewed by the mouth of all his prophets, that Christ should suffer, he hath so fulfilled.
19 Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord.

Peter urged Simon to repent of his wicked thought he expressed to buy a gift of God.
Acts 8:22
Repent therefore of this thy wickedness, and pray God, if perhaps the thought of thine heart may be forgiven thee.

This expresses the understanding of the word 'repentance' early Christians in the Jerusalem church had:
Acts 11:18
When they heard these things, they held their peace, and glorified God, saying, Then hath God also to the Gentiles granted repentance unto life.

Paul pointed out Gentile idolatry and told them to repent, before telling his audience about Jesus.
Acts 17:30
And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:

Here Paul describes his preaching:
Acts 26:20-21
20 But shewed first unto them of Damascus, and at Jerusalem, and throughout all the coasts of Judaea, and then to the Gentiles, that they should repent and turn to God, and do works meet for repentance.
21 For these causes the Jews caught me in the temple, and went about to kill me.

Paul apparently believed that believing in Jesus had some implications for the individual's behavior. Jesus said we would know a tree by its fruit.

Notice the contrast between perishing and coming to repentance.
2 Peter 3:9
The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

I won't even bother with that. It's a waste of time really, but it does explain why you don't understand anything. Even attempting to explain what the truth is would be a waste of time.

Not one of those verses anywhere has anything to do with salvation, eternal life or everlasting life or the Kingdom of heaven. Yet they are inserted onto this topic. This is a stumbling block, similar to James 2. All those who believe will not be confounded.

For all those who actually see clearly, there are two definitions of repentance. Repentance of the mind means to change your mind from unbelief (or whatever you were believing) to believe the gospel. This kind of repentance is not work. It is of the heart. God repented a few times in the Old Testament, and we know that He is without sin and the source of righteousness itself. But also there is repentance from sins, which is works. No flesh shall be justified by keeping the law. Why? Because only the Son of God could keep the whole law. Therefore the only one ever able to enter into heaven by the law is Him. All others must enter through Him by faith alone. His work is complete. He has overcome the law.

As for not getting your life cut off early, that means you have to keep the commandments to preserve the length and health of your life.

Salvation is outside the commandments. It has nothing to do with it. Commandments preserve the length and health of your life on earth, and by keeping them your children also shouldn't have their parents' sins upon them.