Here are several paragraphs I added to the conclusion section about my conclusions on Christianity.
"What I've concluded is that Christianity is right for some but not for others. It can bring happiness and fulfillment (which it did for me), as well as a sense of purpose. Many people need this. But it also narrows and closes the mind as well. You feel impaired from learning new things that don't fit with Christian teaching.
As a devout Christian, you are restricted from intellectual freedom and exploration. For example, Christians are forbidden to study Astrology. So when I was a Christian, I could not pick up an Astrology book without feeling guilty, since I was told that such subjects were Satanic. Christianity's moral laws are also very restrictive if taken literally, especially the "no sex outside of marriage" law. Sometimes, such laws and restrictions make sin more tempting than it otherwise would be.
What's more, trying to live the Christian life seriously is not easy, but often confusing. There are so many interpretations of the Bible, and so many variations of Christian denominations and doctrines, that you are left confused and don't know what to believe. So no matter how serious and sincere you are in your faith, there are no clear definitive answers that all your Christian peers and teachers will agree on.
Also, since God and Jesus can't talk to you directly, you have to always keep guessing what his will is, or look for signs. So often you are left shrugging and wondering, "How do I know what God wants me to do about this or that?" You also can't help but wonder if following God's plan will make you happy or not. I mean, what if his plan is not what you want? What about your freedom of choice? These are difficult and paradoxical issues. There are no easy answers."
Four Extraordinary Aspects of Christianity That Atheists Can't Explain
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To be honest, I was happier as a Christian. But I also got confused the more I thought about it. The Christian life became confusing as well. See the paragraphs I just added in the previous post.zboy1 wrote: Yes, I know what you mean, Winston: The "glow" that you mentioned, does seem to exist in some people. And, for some reason, those same people also seem to have a really blessed-life as well... compared to the average non-believer. I've also heard and seen stories of miracles as well, so that's why I believe the Christian faith is real and not fake.
I think you should consider rejoining the Christian faith, Winston; it would do a world-of-good for you--BUT...I would caution you not to join some Evangelical Christian church group or following freaks like Pat Robertson and John Hagee as pastors...
I would also stay clear of Zionist Christians and Israel-First types; I don't trust the State of Israel or their government, or the Jewish 'elites' for that matter...
To take Christian teachings seriously is a big burden on oneself.
How did you become a Christian?
Which variation or denomination do you recommend? There are so many of them. It's very confusing. How do you know which doctrines to believe in? You can find Bible verses that support a salvation by works and others that support a salvation by faith. It's all confusing and there are no clear answers.
Plus I'm not sure if my lifestyle would fit into it. You aren't allowed sex outside of marriage. Being a womanizer is not compatible with it either. You can't even pick up an Astrology book without feeling guilty. There are so many restrictions.
Check out my FUN video clips in Russia and SE Asia and Female Encounters of the Foreign Kind video series and Full Russia Trip Videos!
Join my Dating Site to meet thousands of legit foreign girls at low cost!
"It takes far less effort to find and move to the society that has what you want than it does to try to reconstruct an existing society to match your standards." - Harry Browne
Join my Dating Site to meet thousands of legit foreign girls at low cost!
"It takes far less effort to find and move to the society that has what you want than it does to try to reconstruct an existing society to match your standards." - Harry Browne
I'm currently reading the book "A History of Christianity" written by the scholar Paul Johnson. I highly recommend reading it to get a better understanding of Christianity.
His discussion of the heresies that were ultimately suppressed by the Empire are particularly interesting. The Gnostics believed that the God of the Old Testament was actually the devil. There was another popular group that had female priests and they believed that a person could receive knowledge directly from God that superseded the Bible. The scholar Origen believed that eventually everyone would be reconciled with God.
Johnson also says that Emperor Constantine was most likely never a Christian and worshiped the Sun God his whole life. Constantine didn't understand the Christian theologies and thought that their differences were really trivial and stupid. However, he intentionally backed one side as the Orthodoxy because he wanted a uniform faith to bring stability to the Empire. It was also common back then for priests to permanently kick people out of their churches for all kinds of reasons. Constantine demanded that they stop doing that because he wanted it to be a faith everyone in the Empire could join. So Constantine was the man who made Christianity into a religion that gives a second chance.
The book gives a good perspective of the development of Christianity and also gives a flavor of the many beliefs that were suppressed by the Orthodox faith.
His discussion of the heresies that were ultimately suppressed by the Empire are particularly interesting. The Gnostics believed that the God of the Old Testament was actually the devil. There was another popular group that had female priests and they believed that a person could receive knowledge directly from God that superseded the Bible. The scholar Origen believed that eventually everyone would be reconciled with God.
Johnson also says that Emperor Constantine was most likely never a Christian and worshiped the Sun God his whole life. Constantine didn't understand the Christian theologies and thought that their differences were really trivial and stupid. However, he intentionally backed one side as the Orthodoxy because he wanted a uniform faith to bring stability to the Empire. It was also common back then for priests to permanently kick people out of their churches for all kinds of reasons. Constantine demanded that they stop doing that because he wanted it to be a faith everyone in the Empire could join. So Constantine was the man who made Christianity into a religion that gives a second chance.
The book gives a good perspective of the development of Christianity and also gives a flavor of the many beliefs that were suppressed by the Orthodox faith.
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Moretorque
- Elite Upper Class Poster
- Posts: 6275
- Joined: April 28th, 2013, 7:00 am
Christians breed like Cock Roaches, the Bible says " be fruitful and multiply " which means take the time to bare good fruit. The idiot Christians have interpreted it to mean" just multiply ".
The aura you claim the Christers resonate and radiate to me is just plain vacant contentment Winston, they should be sterilized.
The aura you claim the Christers resonate and radiate to me is just plain vacant contentment Winston, they should be sterilized.
Time to Hide!
I didn't know they banned Astrology, what about the 3 wise men using astrology to locate Jesus? Isn't the universe god's creation they contradict themselves so much wow, and sex we call come from sex that's how we all started. Maybe they're just all out to confuse us lolWinston wrote:To be honest, I was happier as a Christian. But I also got confused the more I thought about it. The Christian life became confusing as well. See the paragraphs I just added in the previous post.zboy1 wrote: Yes, I know what you mean, Winston: The "glow" that you mentioned, does seem to exist in some people. And, for some reason, those same people also seem to have a really blessed-life as well... compared to the average non-believer. I've also heard and seen stories of miracles as well, so that's why I believe the Christian faith is real and not fake.
I think you should consider rejoining the Christian faith, Winston; it would do a world-of-good for you--BUT...I would caution you not to join some Evangelical Christian church group or following freaks like Pat Robertson and John Hagee as pastors...
I would also stay clear of Zionist Christians and Israel-First types; I don't trust the State of Israel or their government, or the Jewish 'elites' for that matter...
To take Christian teachings seriously is a big burden on oneself.
How did you become a Christian?
Which variation or denomination do you recommend? There are so many of them. It's very confusing. How do you know which doctrines to believe in? You can find Bible verses that support a salvation by works and others that support a salvation by faith. It's all confusing and there are no clear answers.
Plus I'm not sure if my lifestyle would fit into it. You aren't allowed sex outside of marriage. Being a womanizer is not compatible with it either. You can't even pick up an Astrology book without feeling guilty. There are so many restrictions.
- It's easy to give, when you know what it's like to have nothing. -
- Develop a backbone, not a wishbone. -
- Develop a backbone, not a wishbone. -
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Moretorque
- Elite Upper Class Poster
- Posts: 6275
- Joined: April 28th, 2013, 7:00 am
They are out to confuse you, one of the main objectives of the 2nd testament is to keep the males sustaining from having sex until they grow up. They had no real forms of contraceptives and the young males were going around knocking all the women up and the immature males did not want the children from the encounter.
Older males can appreciate the true beauty of a women better which is the survival of their bloodlines.
Older males can appreciate the true beauty of a women better which is the survival of their bloodlines.
Time to Hide!
I want to address two more points on this subject, so I added these two sections to the conclusion:
Did Jesus Christ Exist?
In modern times, there are those who claim that a historical Jesus never existed. They call themselves "mythicists" and claim that he was made up, by either Roman Emperors or the evangelist Paul. One of their main champions is Archarya S who wrote "The Christ Conspiracy: The Greatest Story Ever Sold". Another is Joseph Atwill who wrote a book and produced a documentary called "Caesar's Messiah: The Roman Conspiracy to Invent Jesus".
These mythicists do have some valid points to support their theory. However, it is way too implausible that someone who never existed and was simply "made up" could spawn a religion that endured three centuries of Roman persecution, became the official mandated religion in all of Europe during the Middle Ages, and is now the world's most popular religion. Something made up, fabricated or hoaxed, could not have accomplished all that. Deep down, people can feel the difference between truth and falsehoods. This is why hoaxes don't tend to go very far. So I think this theory is far too much of a stretch and highly implausible.
Plus, claiming that someone never existed is an extreme claim, and unprovable as well. One cannot prove a negative. It is more probable that a historical Jesus existed, but that his message was subverted down the line by those wishing to use it for political control, such as Emperor Constantine, who most likely created the orthodox version of Christianity by combining Jesus' teachings with pagan rituals and Roman hierarchical structures into what became the Roman Catholic Church. Thus, the version of Jesus given by the church today is likely not the same as the historical Jesus. Most neutral objective historians hold this view as well.
Gnostic Origins of Christianity?
Moreover, additional Gospels found during archaeological excavations, known as the "Lost Gospels" which contain Gnostic teachings of early Christian sects, also shed light on this issue. Banned from the Bible by the Council of Nicea - established by Constantine in the 4th Century - these books contain titles such as "The Gospel of Thomas", "The Gospel of Peter", "The Gospel of Mary Magdalene" and even "The Gospel of Judas". They also contain alternate accounts of the life of Jesus.
These Gnostic Gospels contain ideas that resemble Eastern religions (lending credence to the theory that Jesus may have gone to India during the missing period when he was between 12 and 30). They teach reincarnation, individual spirituality, direct connection to God, and allow the possibility of us all becoming "Sons of God" without the need of an institution or priesthood to intercede for us. They also refer to God as both a mother and father, containing masculine and feminine qualities. And they tell of Jesus having a relationship with Mary Magdalene.
These teachings differ from that of orthodox Christianity, which suggests that early Christians sects may have held different esoteric beliefs and a wider theology than that of the mainstream Christian establishment today. What this means is that Christianity may have been far more esoteric, mystical and open-minded before it became institutionalized and canonized by the state for political control by Romans rulers, church papacy, and monarchs. Hence, these texts were not included into the Bible because their ideas did not fit into the agenda of the powers that be. Instead, these texts were suppressed and buried, and the Gnostics were persecuted as heretics until their existence was virtually wiped out.
For orthodox Christians to reject the Gnostic teachings, they would have to take on faith that Emperor Constantine and his council were more interested in truth than in politics and control, which would be illogical, baseless and contrary to common sense regarding the nature of power. History has always shown that rulers are far more interested in control than truth. Their position mandates it, for their job is that of control, not in the spreading of truth to enlighten the masses. Thus to assume that Constantine's decisions regarding the formation of Christian canon and inclusion of the books of the Bible, were infallible and motivated purely by truth, would require too great of a leap of faith beyond reason.
To learn more about Gnostic teachings and the Lost Gospels, look up books by Professor Elaine Pagels, who has written many books on the subject, available on Amazon.com. There are also many documentaries about this subject that you can watch for free on YouTube too.
Did Jesus Christ Exist?
In modern times, there are those who claim that a historical Jesus never existed. They call themselves "mythicists" and claim that he was made up, by either Roman Emperors or the evangelist Paul. One of their main champions is Archarya S who wrote "The Christ Conspiracy: The Greatest Story Ever Sold". Another is Joseph Atwill who wrote a book and produced a documentary called "Caesar's Messiah: The Roman Conspiracy to Invent Jesus".
These mythicists do have some valid points to support their theory. However, it is way too implausible that someone who never existed and was simply "made up" could spawn a religion that endured three centuries of Roman persecution, became the official mandated religion in all of Europe during the Middle Ages, and is now the world's most popular religion. Something made up, fabricated or hoaxed, could not have accomplished all that. Deep down, people can feel the difference between truth and falsehoods. This is why hoaxes don't tend to go very far. So I think this theory is far too much of a stretch and highly implausible.
Plus, claiming that someone never existed is an extreme claim, and unprovable as well. One cannot prove a negative. It is more probable that a historical Jesus existed, but that his message was subverted down the line by those wishing to use it for political control, such as Emperor Constantine, who most likely created the orthodox version of Christianity by combining Jesus' teachings with pagan rituals and Roman hierarchical structures into what became the Roman Catholic Church. Thus, the version of Jesus given by the church today is likely not the same as the historical Jesus. Most neutral objective historians hold this view as well.
Gnostic Origins of Christianity?
Moreover, additional Gospels found during archaeological excavations, known as the "Lost Gospels" which contain Gnostic teachings of early Christian sects, also shed light on this issue. Banned from the Bible by the Council of Nicea - established by Constantine in the 4th Century - these books contain titles such as "The Gospel of Thomas", "The Gospel of Peter", "The Gospel of Mary Magdalene" and even "The Gospel of Judas". They also contain alternate accounts of the life of Jesus.
These Gnostic Gospels contain ideas that resemble Eastern religions (lending credence to the theory that Jesus may have gone to India during the missing period when he was between 12 and 30). They teach reincarnation, individual spirituality, direct connection to God, and allow the possibility of us all becoming "Sons of God" without the need of an institution or priesthood to intercede for us. They also refer to God as both a mother and father, containing masculine and feminine qualities. And they tell of Jesus having a relationship with Mary Magdalene.
These teachings differ from that of orthodox Christianity, which suggests that early Christians sects may have held different esoteric beliefs and a wider theology than that of the mainstream Christian establishment today. What this means is that Christianity may have been far more esoteric, mystical and open-minded before it became institutionalized and canonized by the state for political control by Romans rulers, church papacy, and monarchs. Hence, these texts were not included into the Bible because their ideas did not fit into the agenda of the powers that be. Instead, these texts were suppressed and buried, and the Gnostics were persecuted as heretics until their existence was virtually wiped out.
For orthodox Christians to reject the Gnostic teachings, they would have to take on faith that Emperor Constantine and his council were more interested in truth than in politics and control, which would be illogical, baseless and contrary to common sense regarding the nature of power. History has always shown that rulers are far more interested in control than truth. Their position mandates it, for their job is that of control, not in the spreading of truth to enlighten the masses. Thus to assume that Constantine's decisions regarding the formation of Christian canon and inclusion of the books of the Bible, were infallible and motivated purely by truth, would require too great of a leap of faith beyond reason.
To learn more about Gnostic teachings and the Lost Gospels, look up books by Professor Elaine Pagels, who has written many books on the subject, available on Amazon.com. There are also many documentaries about this subject that you can watch for free on YouTube too.
Check out my FUN video clips in Russia and SE Asia and Female Encounters of the Foreign Kind video series and Full Russia Trip Videos!
Join my Dating Site to meet thousands of legit foreign girls at low cost!
"It takes far less effort to find and move to the society that has what you want than it does to try to reconstruct an existing society to match your standards." - Harry Browne
Join my Dating Site to meet thousands of legit foreign girls at low cost!
"It takes far less effort to find and move to the society that has what you want than it does to try to reconstruct an existing society to match your standards." - Harry Browne
We will never know. I have always assumed that there must have been an historical figure that got the ball rolling but I could be wrong. I have been recently reading "A History of Christianity" by Paul Johnson. The Protestant Reformation was a rebellion against the control of Rome and succeeded because it was supported by German Princes sick of being dominated by the Holy Roman Empire. People were burned at the stake for putting the Bible in English, because people reading the Bible for themselves threatened the power of the Church to interpret and control the faith. There have been hundreds of Christian philosophies suppressed as heresy. For example, read about Montanism during the time of Constantine. They had female priests and a philosophy similar to present day Pentecostals. The more I study Christianity, the more I am coming to the conclusion that it is monstrously complex and an ascetically ugly system. It seems that what Christianity takes 10,000 books to say, Buddhism can say in one paragraph.
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starchild5
- Veteran Poster
- Posts: 2165
- Joined: December 20th, 2013, 2:32 am
How could they come to my country in India and that too in remotest part of South India and convert half of people living around my state 200 years ago when there was no electricity, no vehicle etc etc?
I'm a Christian from India. My great grandparents used to live in coconut huts and there were no modes for easier transportation. How could they convert semi-tribe people ...Language barrier would be an even bigger issue.
I had the biggest pain in my life not having a gf or getting laid but going to Church every sunday and joining sunday school. Me and My brother has the most fight in our home for not wanting to go to church....every sunday morning we will have argument with my dad for not going to church and my father threatening us to throw us out of homes if we don't go to church.
I have suffered a lot due to Christianity and mindless Church Mass....but what astonished me was the undying faith of my parents, grandparents, relatives, the entire village. They are extremely religious.
There is no sane explanation to this. They were practicing Hindu religion for over 5000 years and suddenly they convert to Christianity.
I believe now Before Christ. There were UFOs. They used some kind of Mind Washing Technology to change thoughts of people with an idea before coming in and people excepting it without any mind resistance aka asking questions etc
Even today while going to meet the parents in my hometown, the most fear, annoying thing i dread is going to church. It sucks.
I think based on our DNA patterns, they imposed religion on humanity. I sync very easily with Filipinos than Chinese, Thai's, even Indians, Middle eastern folks in Asia. I can somehow easily relate to a Christian guy even though he or me does not believe in any of this crap. They really used some high tech to bring this brainwashing tool on humanity
I'm a Christian from India. My great grandparents used to live in coconut huts and there were no modes for easier transportation. How could they convert semi-tribe people ...Language barrier would be an even bigger issue.
I had the biggest pain in my life not having a gf or getting laid but going to Church every sunday and joining sunday school. Me and My brother has the most fight in our home for not wanting to go to church....every sunday morning we will have argument with my dad for not going to church and my father threatening us to throw us out of homes if we don't go to church.
I have suffered a lot due to Christianity and mindless Church Mass....but what astonished me was the undying faith of my parents, grandparents, relatives, the entire village. They are extremely religious.
There is no sane explanation to this. They were practicing Hindu religion for over 5000 years and suddenly they convert to Christianity.
I believe now Before Christ. There were UFOs. They used some kind of Mind Washing Technology to change thoughts of people with an idea before coming in and people excepting it without any mind resistance aka asking questions etc
Even today while going to meet the parents in my hometown, the most fear, annoying thing i dread is going to church. It sucks.
I think based on our DNA patterns, they imposed religion on humanity. I sync very easily with Filipinos than Chinese, Thai's, even Indians, Middle eastern folks in Asia. I can somehow easily relate to a Christian guy even though he or me does not believe in any of this crap. They really used some high tech to bring this brainwashing tool on humanity
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ChampionKaji
- Freshman Poster
- Posts: 128
- Joined: March 10th, 2014, 8:26 pm
It wasn't UFO's but it was bribery plus brainwashing. When ever Christians try to colonialise a place they always look at the people's situation & try to improve it. In Africa it was by ways of medicine, in India it was infrastructure, in South America they gave the tribes mosquito nets & were able to convert some. Now most of the Indians that were sent to Africa, Europe & the West Indies we not bribed or given anything but hard work to do. So they had no sympathy for the Christians & didn't identify with them. That's why most of them today are still Hindus & not Christians.starchild5 wrote:How could they come to my country in India and that too in remotest part of South India and convert half of people living around my state 200 years ago when there was no electricity, no vehicle etc etc?
I'm a Christian from India. My great grandparents used to live in coconut huts and there were no modes for easier transportation. How could they convert semi-tribe people ...Language barrier would be an even bigger issue.
I had the biggest pain in my life not having a gf or getting laid but going to Church every sunday and joining sunday school. Me and My brother has the most fight in our home for not wanting to go to church....every sunday morning we will have argument with my dad for not going to church and my father threatening us to throw us out of homes if we don't go to church.
I have suffered a lot due to Christianity and mindless Church Mass....but what astonished me was the undying faith of my parents, grandparents, relatives, the entire village. They are extremely religious.
There is no sane explanation to this. They were practicing Hindu religion for over 5000 years and suddenly they convert to Christianity.
I believe now Before Christ. There were UFOs. They used some kind of Mind Washing Technology to change thoughts of people with an idea before coming in and people excepting it without any mind resistance aka asking questions etc
Even today while going to meet the parents in my hometown, the most fear, annoying thing i dread is going to church. It sucks.
I think based on our DNA patterns, they imposed religion on humanity. I sync very easily with Filipinos than Chinese, Thai's, even Indians, Middle eastern folks in Asia. I can somehow easily relate to a Christian guy even though he or me does not believe in any of this crap. They really used some high tech to bring this brainwashing tool on humanity
- It's easy to give, when you know what it's like to have nothing. -
- Develop a backbone, not a wishbone. -
- Develop a backbone, not a wishbone. -
Bart Ehrman, a distinguished Bible scholar, historian and former Christian, made a great point in his book "Did Jesus Exist?" about why a historical Jesus existed.
He said that no one at the time was expecting a messiah that would be crucified. A crucified messiah was never part of Jewish beliefs prior to Christianity. So if someone were to make up a messiah, he would make up a great warrior or king figure that won many battles and freed many slaves, like King David or Moses. They would not make up a messiah that was executed by the Romans in the most humiliating way. That would mean that the messiah was defeated and failed. It would be a downer and would not inspire people.
So most likely there was a historical Jesus who was crucified, which left his followers confused and disillusioned. So they began looking for a way to justify a crucified messiah. They reinvented the whole theology of the Old Testament, and claimed that it was God's plan all along to have the messiah crucified to wash away our sins. In doing so, they embellished stories about Jesus, including his alleged resurrection.
This is in fact, the view that most historians hold about the historical Jesus. You can listen to Bart Ehrman's interview about this here:
Furthermore, Dr. Ehrman says that the Romans did not commonly worship dying and rising pagan saviors. He says that is a myth that Atheists created that is not backed up by historical evidence. I don't know about this and have not looked into it. But if he's right, then I wonder where Archarya S got her sources.
I think that Dr. Ehrman is probably right. Plus, a hoax can only go so far. People can feel the difference between truth and falsehood at a deeper level. For example, women usually know when their partner is cheating on them, even when they have no evidence. They can sense it at an instinctual and intuitive level. Likewise, people can feel out a hoax eventually, even if they fall for it at first. It loses its power over them over time.
Also, a hoax does not result in millions of lives being transformed, and early Christians enduring three centuries of Roman persecution. Nor can a hoax become the world's biggest religion. A hoax does not have the power to transform lives, answer prayers (in ways that coincidences can't, which Atheists can't explain and can only dismiss) and perform real miracles (many of which are documented and attested to by multiple eyewitnesses). It just would not make sense.
Even if the Bible and Christian doctrine are not literally true, there does seem to be something very real behind the power of Christianity. Even as a non-Christian, I can see this. It's obvious. But we could say the same for Islam, Judaism, Hinduism, Buddhism, and even New Age beliefs too. There seems to be something very real and transformative behind those religions as well. Most likely, they all contain kernels of truth at some level in their teachings. After all, all beliefs have some degree of truth in them, and this includes religious beliefs as well.
The problem with Christianity is that it has gotten a bad rap from fanatical literalists, and people who have done great wrong in its name (e.g. Crusades, Inquisition, Witch Trials, punishment and executions of opposers to the Church, subjugation of native tribes, etc). It has also become too institutionalized and subjected to politics, power, control and money (especially with the Catholic Church). It also makes extreme claims, such as if you accept Jesus as your Savior you will go to Heaven, but if you don't, you will go to Hell.
All of this has contributed to its highly controversial reputation. But most likely, it has deviated greatly from the original teachings of its founder, Jesus, and his early disciples. So if you remove all that, it becomes not as bad, and perhaps you can then find some truth in it.
Perhaps if we learn to look at these religions more as symbolic metaphors of truth, rather than as literal truth, they would make a lot more sense to the reasoning mind. After all, taking religion too literally results in too many logical problems that cannot be resolved.
So I think that's the best way to approach this. We should see mankind's religions as ideas which point to a higher truth, and serve as archetypes of our collective consciousness. Even Buddhism and Zen teaches that their religion is like a finger pointing at the moon. The finger is not the moon itself of course, it merely points to it.
It would make a lot more sense to look at religion this way. If we did, it would end the perpetual squabbling and debate between different religious beliefs, religion and science, theism and atheism, etc. In doing so, such dualities and dichotomies would be transcended. I think this view would be far wiser and more reasonable than grappling with literal interpretations that cannot be proven or disproven one way or another.
He said that no one at the time was expecting a messiah that would be crucified. A crucified messiah was never part of Jewish beliefs prior to Christianity. So if someone were to make up a messiah, he would make up a great warrior or king figure that won many battles and freed many slaves, like King David or Moses. They would not make up a messiah that was executed by the Romans in the most humiliating way. That would mean that the messiah was defeated and failed. It would be a downer and would not inspire people.
So most likely there was a historical Jesus who was crucified, which left his followers confused and disillusioned. So they began looking for a way to justify a crucified messiah. They reinvented the whole theology of the Old Testament, and claimed that it was God's plan all along to have the messiah crucified to wash away our sins. In doing so, they embellished stories about Jesus, including his alleged resurrection.
This is in fact, the view that most historians hold about the historical Jesus. You can listen to Bart Ehrman's interview about this here:
Furthermore, Dr. Ehrman says that the Romans did not commonly worship dying and rising pagan saviors. He says that is a myth that Atheists created that is not backed up by historical evidence. I don't know about this and have not looked into it. But if he's right, then I wonder where Archarya S got her sources.
I think that Dr. Ehrman is probably right. Plus, a hoax can only go so far. People can feel the difference between truth and falsehood at a deeper level. For example, women usually know when their partner is cheating on them, even when they have no evidence. They can sense it at an instinctual and intuitive level. Likewise, people can feel out a hoax eventually, even if they fall for it at first. It loses its power over them over time.
Also, a hoax does not result in millions of lives being transformed, and early Christians enduring three centuries of Roman persecution. Nor can a hoax become the world's biggest religion. A hoax does not have the power to transform lives, answer prayers (in ways that coincidences can't, which Atheists can't explain and can only dismiss) and perform real miracles (many of which are documented and attested to by multiple eyewitnesses). It just would not make sense.
Even if the Bible and Christian doctrine are not literally true, there does seem to be something very real behind the power of Christianity. Even as a non-Christian, I can see this. It's obvious. But we could say the same for Islam, Judaism, Hinduism, Buddhism, and even New Age beliefs too. There seems to be something very real and transformative behind those religions as well. Most likely, they all contain kernels of truth at some level in their teachings. After all, all beliefs have some degree of truth in them, and this includes religious beliefs as well.
The problem with Christianity is that it has gotten a bad rap from fanatical literalists, and people who have done great wrong in its name (e.g. Crusades, Inquisition, Witch Trials, punishment and executions of opposers to the Church, subjugation of native tribes, etc). It has also become too institutionalized and subjected to politics, power, control and money (especially with the Catholic Church). It also makes extreme claims, such as if you accept Jesus as your Savior you will go to Heaven, but if you don't, you will go to Hell.
All of this has contributed to its highly controversial reputation. But most likely, it has deviated greatly from the original teachings of its founder, Jesus, and his early disciples. So if you remove all that, it becomes not as bad, and perhaps you can then find some truth in it.
Perhaps if we learn to look at these religions more as symbolic metaphors of truth, rather than as literal truth, they would make a lot more sense to the reasoning mind. After all, taking religion too literally results in too many logical problems that cannot be resolved.
So I think that's the best way to approach this. We should see mankind's religions as ideas which point to a higher truth, and serve as archetypes of our collective consciousness. Even Buddhism and Zen teaches that their religion is like a finger pointing at the moon. The finger is not the moon itself of course, it merely points to it.
It would make a lot more sense to look at religion this way. If we did, it would end the perpetual squabbling and debate between different religious beliefs, religion and science, theism and atheism, etc. In doing so, such dualities and dichotomies would be transcended. I think this view would be far wiser and more reasonable than grappling with literal interpretations that cannot be proven or disproven one way or another.
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celery2010
- Freshman Poster
- Posts: 328
- Joined: July 13th, 2012, 3:18 pm
Hi Winston,
I can help answer these questions for you.
I recommend you read the following, in this order.
The Normal Christian Life by Watchman Nee
available for free at http://www.ccel.org/ccel/nee/normal
Then read "The Power of Right Believing" by Joseph Prince.
Then read the bible, starting with the new testament.
Please note that Watchman Nee is from China and Joseph Prince is from Singapore.
Note: some teaching by both of these guys can be somewhat heretical, but these are very powerful books.
You can read the Amazon reviews for these books. Both have over one hundred uniformly 5 star reviews.
Let me start.
"For he who in started a good work, he will not let go". Not the exact words, but I forget where this is in the Bible. If you started out in Christianity, you will be lead back to it.
"For the things that are not of this world can not be seen or heard" "no one has seen God"
I heard from a Christian lecture that there was a sever Atheist from England in the 19th century and he tried to go about disproving the existence of the Bible and went to Turkey.
In the process, not only did he not find a single inconsistency, he himself was converted and became a Christian.
What someone has said above is true. You must believe. However it says in the Bible, "for ALL those who search, I will be found"
Your life can be made much better. A better career, more meaning, a great wife and family.
I recently saw a really depressing profile of a woman who was living in North Dakota and how miserable her life was. She couldn't even leave the house, because the ratio is so bad there that she would be in danger.
I'd challenge anyone here to simply try what I suggest. Try reading these 3 books. Try it out for 1 year. See how it works out.
As for trying to live a "restricted" life, and finding it difficult, you will find the answer to that in the first 2 books.
If you become a believer, your old self is "crucified" just like Christ. Signs of Christ become more and more apparent in you. Because of the things you experience and the assistance from the holy Spirit, your life will slowly start to change.
I can help answer these questions for you.
I recommend you read the following, in this order.
The Normal Christian Life by Watchman Nee
available for free at http://www.ccel.org/ccel/nee/normal
Then read "The Power of Right Believing" by Joseph Prince.
Then read the bible, starting with the new testament.
Please note that Watchman Nee is from China and Joseph Prince is from Singapore.
Note: some teaching by both of these guys can be somewhat heretical, but these are very powerful books.
You can read the Amazon reviews for these books. Both have over one hundred uniformly 5 star reviews.
Let me start.
"For he who in started a good work, he will not let go". Not the exact words, but I forget where this is in the Bible. If you started out in Christianity, you will be lead back to it.
"For the things that are not of this world can not be seen or heard" "no one has seen God"
I heard from a Christian lecture that there was a sever Atheist from England in the 19th century and he tried to go about disproving the existence of the Bible and went to Turkey.
In the process, not only did he not find a single inconsistency, he himself was converted and became a Christian.
What someone has said above is true. You must believe. However it says in the Bible, "for ALL those who search, I will be found"
Your life can be made much better. A better career, more meaning, a great wife and family.
I recently saw a really depressing profile of a woman who was living in North Dakota and how miserable her life was. She couldn't even leave the house, because the ratio is so bad there that she would be in danger.
I'd challenge anyone here to simply try what I suggest. Try reading these 3 books. Try it out for 1 year. See how it works out.
As for trying to live a "restricted" life, and finding it difficult, you will find the answer to that in the first 2 books.
If you become a believer, your old self is "crucified" just like Christ. Signs of Christ become more and more apparent in you. Because of the things you experience and the assistance from the holy Spirit, your life will slowly start to change.
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celery2010
- Freshman Poster
- Posts: 328
- Joined: July 13th, 2012, 3:18 pm
I would explain this in the following manner. In the bible, it says we are "his children".lavezzi wrote:When you are a young child, you experience a kind of blissful ignorance and have very few concerns. This is because you are yet to develop a mental-ego and henceforth experience all the problems and suffering it entails. You experience love and protection from your parents during this period. Whenever you feel fear, they are there to console you. There is an inevitable association between the sense of security this brings and the pre-personal mode of awareness possessed during this time which is preferable to the personal or egoic mode of awareness one possesses as an adult. The end result is that humans have a strong desire to regress to the lower or infantile forms of awareness they knew when they were children, and seek various outlets for this purpose. Christianity has developed into one of these outlets for people's attempt at regression to the slumber of childhood, through a projection of parental characteristics onto the deity with whom to seek a relationship with. Another crucial point is that Christianity offers a denial of death; the proposition of everlasting life as a form of protection from the fear of death, in exchange for obedience to it's rules, another parental projection. This is my explanation for the appeal and historical prevalence of Christianity on an individual or psychological level.
On a collective or sociological level, Christianity (and religion in general) is highly ritualistic. This offers mutual understanding amongst people, promoting social cohesion and moral values. Some form of ritual to provide an external constant which promotes common values is absolutely essential for human society. The lack thereof is responsible for much of the chaos in the modern world and the 'disconnectedness' easily discernible among people today.
So the important point is that exoteric religion offers the individual an attempt at regressing to lower levels of consciousness, while esoteric religion offers the individual an attempt at transforming to higher levels of consciousness. The two are polar opposites; to regress is to escape one's current limitations by decreasing awareness, while to transform is to transcend one's current limitations by increasing awareness. We are a spiritually evolving species, caught in a difficult period where we are half way between beasts and gods so to speak. A personal evolution towards higher levels of consciousness is very difficult to achieve because it is unprecedented, while a personal regression to lower levels is much easier and hence much more widespread because it is a state we each possessed in the past. Don't merely succumb to your fears and take this route Winston, stick to what's true and have faith in only that. That's called integrity, and is the only route to true salvation.
When we are children, we don't understand why our parents punish us or try to mold us into better humans. Or why we need to invest in certain things for a future benefit.
I would take this in a similar fashion. we don't exactly understand why certain things are good or bad for us. Similarly, childhood is relatively short compared to adulthood.
In contrast, i'd say try it out. What do you have to lose? A year of effort and time? If you see absolutely no evidence of anything-- then go back to your original way of life.
But remember this. Anything is possible. You life could completely change, and i'm not merely speaking from a religious point of view here. You've obviously been in the doldrums for years-- as was I.
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