"Mental illness" = Demonic Possession?

[Shemp]

...It is more likely to be a rational desire not to be chimped out on and murdered for any or no reason, the schools not to be shit, the standards of public conduct not to be horrific etc.

Desires you listed are rational, based on material reality. Demonic possession enters when the lust for money no longer has any impact on biological standard of living: no better food or medical care, no less noise, no less violence, etc. Some rich people (like Buffett, supposedly) continue making more money because it's like a hobby that they enjoy. However, many rich people don't enjoy their work, but nevertheless keep working because of an irrational lust for more and more money. That is demon possession.

[Shemp]

If there are aspects of the material universe we don't understand, they are still aspects of the material universe. Everything is either material or spiritual, one or the other.

Whatever the actual nature of reality, there would seem to be some value in making a distinction between what we think we currently understand and the influences on us that are apparent that we don’t understand, though they might well turn out to be part of a cohesive greater whole.

True, but it's even more important to distinguish material and spiritual. Material is outside the mind. Spiritual is within, especially the subconscious mind.

[Cornfed]

Whatever the actual nature of reality, there would seem to be some value in making a distinction between what we think we currently understand and the influences on us that are apparent that we don’t understand, though they might well turn out to be part of a cohesive greater whole.

True, but it's even more important to distinguish material and spiritual. Material is outside the mind. Spiritual is within, especially the subconscious mind.

We're back to this. Maybe it has external existence we don't know about. Maybe there is no internal and external. Your conception of the "subconscious mind" seems somewhat spiritualist.

[Shemp]

Yes, we're back to this, because you, like @Winston, are an atheist materialist without even realizing it. The spirit world exists, and it is distinct from the material world. You and other materialists always try to make the spirit world a hidden piece of the material world. Hidden pieces of the material world, like subatomic particles or galaxies far away from us, are still material.

The spirit world is hidden in a different way. Most of the mind is subconscious, this hidden. Especially the demonic parts are subconscious, with only the consequences of demonic possession visible in the conscious mind.

[Cornfed]

The spirit world is hidden in a different way. Most of the mind is subconscious, this hidden. Especially the demonic parts are subconscious, with only the consequences of demonic possession visible in the conscious mind.

But might not demons exist as separate, conscious independent entities?

[Shemp]

The spirit world is hidden in a different way. Most of the mind is subconscious, this hidden. Especially the demonic parts are subconscious, with only the consequences of demonic possession visible in the conscious mind.

But might not demons exist as separate, conscious independent entities?

Demons are independent and separate from the conscious mind, which is why we can't easily control them and they can possess us.

As for whether denons are conscious, this is a misleading question. As babies, we learn to distinguish conscious from unconscious objects. Conscious objects can be trained, using smiles or threats or other means, to do what we want, whereas unconscious objects cannot be trained. Both can be unpredictable. The wind, for example, is unpredictable but also untrainable, hence unconscious. Humans and higher animals, like dogs and cows, can be trained, and so are conscious. Lower animals, like insects, cannot be trained, and so are effectively unconscious, though in practice we call them conscious but too stupid to train, since it's clear insects are closer to higher animals than to phenomena like the wind.

We do not use the terms conscious and unconscious for spiritual beings, including demons, gods, guardian angels, etc. None of these spiritual beings can be trained to behave according to our will. They are clearly more like the wind than like animals or other humans. That is, they are unpredictable but also uncontrollable and untrainable. We can resist demons, listen to guardian angels, obey the will of the gods, but we cannot ever control them. Similarly, we can harness the power of the wind when it favors us and take shelter from it when it opposes us, but we can never control the wind. So if forced to answer the question, are demons conscious?, the best answer would be no.

I will mention that grasshopper @Winston here, since he needs to read this and my preceding comments. He is still struggling with the darkness of his materialist beliefs, but evidently wants to be enlightened.

[Winston]

Mr S told me that he noticed that when someone is possessed, even in the movies, its usually a girl or woman. Why is that? Likewise in a seance the medium that does the channeling is always a woman too. Why?

If women are more spiritual or attuned to psychic and spiritual forces then why are they more materialistic too? Especially in Asia? Why do women use shopping to fill their void? Are women naturally into shopping or are they conditioned to be that way by a consumerist society?

Btw i just talked to my friend Mitchell. He noticed that when a woman u know is hurt and curses you, you tend to be jinxed and have bad luck. Does that mean women have some psychic power, even if they are atheists?

I also heard from the witch Evelyn Paglini on Art Bell that if someone about to be executed issues a last curse it will be very powerful and come true.

For example before Rasputin died he said that if he were assassinated then the Russian royal family would die in 3 years. It happened just as he warned. Rasputin had a ton of psychic power for sure. Why did they kill him if he was so powerful and charismatic?

[Winston]

No @Shemp i never said i was an atheist or materialist. What do u mean? I always said i believe in the spirit world.

You said the spirit world is different from the material world. I agree. Of course it is. Thats why seeking material evidence of the spirit world is nonsensical. But they aren't separate. Theres lots of paranormal phenomena like ESP and ghosts and supernatural forces that cannot be explained. So the spirit world and material world are intertwined obviously. Didn't you consider that?

Also some say consciousness creates the material world. Look up Biocentrism and Robert Lansa. It says the material world doesnt exist if not perceived. Look up the observer effect and double slit experiment in quantum physics. It indicates particles behave differently when observed vs not observed. Did u hear about that before? Its mentioned now in many books and documentaries about spirituality and new age and self help. Thats why the slogan "you create your reality" is now popular and common cliche.

I know new age teachings have a lot of BS but like the Bible it has to contain some truth to attract people and resonate with people. Even if the truth is perverted and twisted like it is in the Bible, it still has to be based on basic core truths.

[MrMan]

As for whether denons are conscious, this is a misleading question. As babies, we learn to distinguish conscious from unconscious objects. Conscious objects can be trained, using smiles or threats or other means, to do what we want, whereas unconscious objects cannot be trained. Both can be unpredictable. The wind, for example, is unpredictable but also untrainable, hence unconscious. Humans and higher animals, like dogs and cows, can be trained, and so are conscious. Lower animals, like insects, cannot be trained, and so are effectively unconscious, though in practice we call them conscious but too stupid to train, since it's clear insects are closer to higher animals than to phenomena like the wind.

If you cannot train a certain horse, a certain dog, or a certain woman, that does not mean they are not conscious. Trainable versus not conscious is a false dichotomy.

[Shemp]

As for whether denons are conscious, this is a misleading question. As babies, we learn to distinguish conscious from unconscious objects. Conscious objects can be trained, using smiles or threats or other means, to do what we want, whereas unconscious objects cannot be trained. Both can be unpredictable. The wind, for example, is unpredictable but also untrainable, hence unconscious. Humans and higher animals, like dogs and cows, can be trained, and so are conscious. Lower animals, like insects, cannot be trained, and so are effectively unconscious, though in practice we call them conscious but too stupid to train, since it's clear insects are closer to higher animals than to phenomena like the wind.

If you cannot train a certain horse, a certain dog, or a certain woman, that does not mean they are not conscious. Trainable versus not conscious is a false dichotomy.

Trainable might be the wrong word. "Responsive to our actions" might be better. That is, horses, dogs, women, etc are all responsive to our actions. If a baby makes a sudden move, all of these conscious creatures will at least blink or show other eye movement, at least some of the time. Whereas unconscious phenomena never, ever respond predictably to our actions. Babies learn to distinguish conscious from unconscious very early in life.

Many languages also distinguish conscious=animate from unconscious=inanimate nouns, because of the huge importance of this distinction.

Spiritual beings (gods, demons, etc) may respond to our actions with actions of their own, and are thus conscious=animate in that sense, but we can never have material world power over them, like we can over material beings, which is why I argue that conscious/unconscious does not apply to them and they should go in a third category. Spiritual beongs are not something babies can understand, or even most adults. Just look at poor @Winston, who continues to conflate material with spiritual.

[Winston]

Shemp, how do you explain this?

"A priest in the U.S. is one of the world's few Vatican-trained exorcists. Here he speaks about some of his most haunting experiences, and why he believes exorcisms are on the rise today."

[Shemp]

Shemp, how do you explain this?

"A priest in the U.S. is one of the world's few Vatican-trained exorcists. Here he speaks about some of his most haunting experiences, and why he believes exorcisms are on the rise today."

I haven't got patience for these videos. Exorcism is a form of ceremonial Magick, meaning intentional symbolic operations in the material world to bring about mental changes. For example, if someone is trying to give up smoking, they might make a big ceremony of destroying all lighters, ashtrays and remaining supplies of cigarettes, while walking in a circle and repeating 100 times "I will no longer smoke". Magick ceremonies like this sometimes work, in the sense of producing better results than simply making a decision one morning to stop smoking. Similarly with exorcisms.

Controlling the mind is very difficult. Just consider the difficulty of losing weight, which boils dowm to controlling the mind. So anything that can help is valuable, including Magick.

[Winston]

But Shemp, if you listen to the priest's testimony, he says that during the exorcism, the possessed would levitate and chairs would fly across the room. That's not something a materalistic conventional explanation can account for. I'm sure you know that. I'm sure you've seen that in the movies. But the thing is, people say it happens in real life too. So it can't just be psychological right? Shouldn't an objective honest truth seeker try to account for all the data rather than only focus on data that fits their beliefs?

[Shemp]

But Shemp, if you listen to the priest's testimony, he says that during the exorcism, the possessed would levitate and chairs would fly across the room. That's not something a materalistic conventional explanation can account for.

Levitating and flying chairs are material world phenomena. Nothing to do with spiritual world. Continue pondering and we'll discuss again in another few years.

[Winston]

You are strange Shemp. Are you saying that you believe in psychic phenomena but not the spirit world? How is that so? I never heard anyone take that position before. How do you know there's no spirit world? How do you explain ghosts and poltergeists and things we can't see? Don't you believe there is a hidden dimension or hidden layers of reality? People always have for thousands of years. How do you explain that? What's your explanation for all paranormal and unexplained phenomena, of which there are hundreds of types?