Did Jesus Christ Exist as a historical person? If so, who was he?
Re: Did Jesus Christ Exist? Questioning his historicity.
Jesus is God in the flesh. He is Our God. He is our Creator. Without Him there is no life, because He is the source of life itself. That is one reason why He insists that we give Him the glory. The other reason is, because sin is in the world, He was loving enough to manifest in the flesh to pay the penalty for sin for us, and the penalty for sin is death. So God came in the flesh to die for our sins, to save us from the penalty of death.
All we must do is realize we can't save ourselves through our own works, because we are not perfectly sinless because we are not Christ. There is only one person who can redeem us: that is Christ. All we must do is believe in Him, and then He considers us worthy of eternal life, because when we believe in Him, He imputes His righteousness onto us, making us worthy.
All we must do is realize we can't save ourselves through our own works, because we are not perfectly sinless because we are not Christ. There is only one person who can redeem us: that is Christ. All we must do is believe in Him, and then He considers us worthy of eternal life, because when we believe in Him, He imputes His righteousness onto us, making us worthy.
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Re: Did Jesus Christ Exist? Questioning his historicity.
Either a person can believe or they can't believe. If you can believe, then you will go to heaven. If a person can't believe, they're doomed. It's easy to believe, but many people are incapable of coming to any kind of true faith in Jesus WITHOUT ANY WORKS. That's to their shame.
The Bible describes hell as fire and brimstone. Brimstone is sulfur. Lava and magma are liquid fire, and it contains sulfur, which is brimstone. Where does lava come from? From beneath the foundations of the mountains, just like God tells us in Deuteronomy. Hell is right beneath our feet. Lava is proof of it. This is undeniable proof that hell is real, yet people can't even believe this much when it is literally right there to be observed and shown to everyone. That's how rejected their minds are from the truth. And how willingly blind they are to the truth, not wanting to believe what is clearly seen.
And when you look at Sodom and Gomorrah, which are entombed in actual BRIMSTONE (sulfur), you really don't need any more proof than this.
The Bible describes hell as fire and brimstone. Brimstone is sulfur. Lava and magma are liquid fire, and it contains sulfur, which is brimstone. Where does lava come from? From beneath the foundations of the mountains, just like God tells us in Deuteronomy. Hell is right beneath our feet. Lava is proof of it. This is undeniable proof that hell is real, yet people can't even believe this much when it is literally right there to be observed and shown to everyone. That's how rejected their minds are from the truth. And how willingly blind they are to the truth, not wanting to believe what is clearly seen.
And when you look at Sodom and Gomorrah, which are entombed in actual BRIMSTONE (sulfur), you really don't need any more proof than this.
Re: Did Jesus Christ Exist? Questioning his historicity.
Another interesting argument that Jesus never existed is that Nazareth never existed during the time of Jesus.
"The evidence that disproves the authenticity of the gospels is the fact that the town of Nazareth where Jesus supposedly spent his childhood did not even exist in any form until at least 100 years after his supposed death and resurrection. Moreover, a town called Nazareth is nowhere to be found in the Hebrew Old Testament nor in any other historical document until long after Jesus’ supposed death. The city of Nazareth was a real city, but not during the supposed life of Jesus."
Denney, Michael. Odin Says, "Jesus Was A Coward!": The Monotheist Subversion of Traditional Religious Thought"
Here is a website that goes into the details.
http://www.nazarethmyth.info/naz1article.html
"The evidence that disproves the authenticity of the gospels is the fact that the town of Nazareth where Jesus supposedly spent his childhood did not even exist in any form until at least 100 years after his supposed death and resurrection. Moreover, a town called Nazareth is nowhere to be found in the Hebrew Old Testament nor in any other historical document until long after Jesus’ supposed death. The city of Nazareth was a real city, but not during the supposed life of Jesus."
Denney, Michael. Odin Says, "Jesus Was A Coward!": The Monotheist Subversion of Traditional Religious Thought"
Here is a website that goes into the details.
http://www.nazarethmyth.info/naz1article.html
Re: Did Jesus Christ Exist? Questioning his historicity.
MrPeabody,
Is it possible that nazareth did exist 2000 years ago but that it was too small to be recorded in roman documents? Or perhaps the records of it were lost? The romans were not perfect record keepers right?
My italian friend told me that if someone wanted to make up jesus they wouldnt put him in a fictitious town right? They would put him in a real town to make the story more credible right? Why make up a town that doesnt exist and damage your credibility?
Also sometimes lost cities are discovered, like Troy right? So sometimes mythical cities are found by archaeologists and proven to have existed after all?
Is it possible that nazareth did exist 2000 years ago but that it was too small to be recorded in roman documents? Or perhaps the records of it were lost? The romans were not perfect record keepers right?
My italian friend told me that if someone wanted to make up jesus they wouldnt put him in a fictitious town right? They would put him in a real town to make the story more credible right? Why make up a town that doesnt exist and damage your credibility?
Also sometimes lost cities are discovered, like Troy right? So sometimes mythical cities are found by archaeologists and proven to have existed after all?
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Re: Did Jesus Christ Exist? Questioning his historicity.
From my italian friend regarding the existence of Nazareth:
[9/15, 12:32 AM] Alex From Italy: I think that the claim of the inexistence of Nazareth at the time of Jesus its irrelevant
[9/15, 12:35 AM] Alex From Italy: historians are known to have been proven wrong many times when they were "sure" that a story was just a myth and therefore what's told isn't real but imagination
[9/15, 12:36 AM] Alex From Italy: like the town of Troy that had been believed to never existed til it has been found
[9/15, 12:37 AM] Alex From Italy: historians are alarm sure that Atlantis never existed
[9/15, 12:40 AM] Alex From Italy: that the Egyptian Sphinx has been build the Egyptians while it's been proven that it's been corroded by centuries of rain which never happened at the time of the Egyptians
[9/15, 12:41 AM] Alex From Italy: maybe the Gospels are right and the historians are, once again, wrong
[9/15, 12:44 AM] Alex From Italy: but even if the Gospel are wrong on that particular detail, that doesn't mean that everything it's wrong and fake
[9/15, 12:48 AM] Alex From Italy: moreover there are inexplicable phenomenas like healing from unrecoverable disease, the stigmata, the exorcisms, that are undoubtedly linked to the Christian religion and therefore the faith in Jesus
[9/15, 12:49 AM] Alex From Italy: what matter of the Gospels it's the message, the teachings, not the accuracy of the topography and chronology
[9/15, 1:20 AM] Alex From Italy: it's what says to your soul not to your ears
[9/15, 12:32 AM] Alex From Italy: I think that the claim of the inexistence of Nazareth at the time of Jesus its irrelevant
[9/15, 12:35 AM] Alex From Italy: historians are known to have been proven wrong many times when they were "sure" that a story was just a myth and therefore what's told isn't real but imagination
[9/15, 12:36 AM] Alex From Italy: like the town of Troy that had been believed to never existed til it has been found
[9/15, 12:37 AM] Alex From Italy: historians are alarm sure that Atlantis never existed
[9/15, 12:40 AM] Alex From Italy: that the Egyptian Sphinx has been build the Egyptians while it's been proven that it's been corroded by centuries of rain which never happened at the time of the Egyptians
[9/15, 12:41 AM] Alex From Italy: maybe the Gospels are right and the historians are, once again, wrong
[9/15, 12:44 AM] Alex From Italy: but even if the Gospel are wrong on that particular detail, that doesn't mean that everything it's wrong and fake
[9/15, 12:48 AM] Alex From Italy: moreover there are inexplicable phenomenas like healing from unrecoverable disease, the stigmata, the exorcisms, that are undoubtedly linked to the Christian religion and therefore the faith in Jesus
[9/15, 12:49 AM] Alex From Italy: what matter of the Gospels it's the message, the teachings, not the accuracy of the topography and chronology
[9/15, 1:20 AM] Alex From Italy: it's what says to your soul not to your ears
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Re: Did Jesus Christ Exist? Questioning his historicity.
My friend from venice explained to me below why Christianity was not a set up or hoax. What do you all think? Does he make sense?
[9/15, 7:18 AM] Alex From Venice: Christian religion isn't a set up... if it is the authors would be totally insane because they didn't get anything in terms of power and wealth
[9/15, 7:18 AM] Alex From Venice: The Muslim religion it's a perfect set up instead
[9/15, 7:19 AM] Alex From Venice: and it's author has done exactly what someone who wants to build up a new religion for own good would do
[9/15, 7:20 AM] Alex From Venice: he claimed to be the one with a almost direct connection to God and that what he says it's from God
[9/15, 7:21 AM] Alex From Venice: he didn't made someone else protagonist of the religion
[9/15, 7:21 AM] Alex From Venice: he made himself
[9/15, 7:22 AM] Alex From Venice: in the Muslim religion there's God, then Mohammad, then all others
[9/15, 7:23 AM] Alex From Venice: if Paul was the author of a fake religion why he didn't put himself right after God as Mohammed did?
[9/15, 7:25 AM] Alex From Venice: Mohammed also was a warrior leader, he had no problem at all to make up a religion that supports war and enslaving
[9/15, 7:25 AM] Alex From Venice: that indeed was very "reasonable"
[9/15, 7:26 AM] Alex From Venice: Why then Paul would have made a religion promoting peace and forgiveness at all costs and "love the enemy"
[9/15, 7:27 AM] Alex From Venice: which is a nonsense for any human being
[9/15, 7:28 AM] Alex From Venice: Christian religion can't be out of a fiction because no reasonable man would have come out with such unreasonable and useless (in terms of self wealth and power) story
[9/15, 7:18 AM] Alex From Venice: Christian religion isn't a set up... if it is the authors would be totally insane because they didn't get anything in terms of power and wealth
[9/15, 7:18 AM] Alex From Venice: The Muslim religion it's a perfect set up instead
[9/15, 7:19 AM] Alex From Venice: and it's author has done exactly what someone who wants to build up a new religion for own good would do
[9/15, 7:20 AM] Alex From Venice: he claimed to be the one with a almost direct connection to God and that what he says it's from God
[9/15, 7:21 AM] Alex From Venice: he didn't made someone else protagonist of the religion
[9/15, 7:21 AM] Alex From Venice: he made himself
[9/15, 7:22 AM] Alex From Venice: in the Muslim religion there's God, then Mohammad, then all others
[9/15, 7:23 AM] Alex From Venice: if Paul was the author of a fake religion why he didn't put himself right after God as Mohammed did?
[9/15, 7:25 AM] Alex From Venice: Mohammed also was a warrior leader, he had no problem at all to make up a religion that supports war and enslaving
[9/15, 7:25 AM] Alex From Venice: that indeed was very "reasonable"
[9/15, 7:26 AM] Alex From Venice: Why then Paul would have made a religion promoting peace and forgiveness at all costs and "love the enemy"
[9/15, 7:27 AM] Alex From Venice: which is a nonsense for any human being
[9/15, 7:28 AM] Alex From Venice: Christian religion can't be out of a fiction because no reasonable man would have come out with such unreasonable and useless (in terms of self wealth and power) story
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Re: Did Jesus Christ Exist? Questioning his historicity.
Why would the jewish talmud and muslim koran, which are opposed to Christianity, admit that jesus existed if he didnt?
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Re: Did Jesus Christ Exist? Questioning his historicity.
MrPeabody,
Anyone can put up a website and claim that no historical evidence for something exists. All they have to do is not research or just ignore the existence of that thing and post a blog claiming there is no evidence.
There are several videos of archaeologists digging up first century Nazareth on YouTube.
I haven't watched the whole thing, but here is one of them.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pHst1FAC4bk
Someone put together a little video mentioning some of the other types of evidence:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QzpPOXnA5SE
The Gospels are also evidence that Nazareth existed. Even if you don't believe the Gospel, it doesn't make sense that these authors would make up towns that don't exist if they wanted to convince people of Jesus' existence. We don't have a complete set of first century Roman records. First century fragments have been found that are believed to be part of the book of Mark.
John McDowell wrote a what some have called a high-school-level apologetics book that answers some of these types of objections. He says there is more evidence that Jesus Christ existed than Julius Caesar. It's strange how people will accept the accepted version of history for other historical figures, but insist on having exact original copies of the New Testament.
Anyone can put up a website and claim that no historical evidence for something exists. All they have to do is not research or just ignore the existence of that thing and post a blog claiming there is no evidence.
There are several videos of archaeologists digging up first century Nazareth on YouTube.
I haven't watched the whole thing, but here is one of them.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pHst1FAC4bk
Someone put together a little video mentioning some of the other types of evidence:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QzpPOXnA5SE
The Gospels are also evidence that Nazareth existed. Even if you don't believe the Gospel, it doesn't make sense that these authors would make up towns that don't exist if they wanted to convince people of Jesus' existence. We don't have a complete set of first century Roman records. First century fragments have been found that are believed to be part of the book of Mark.
John McDowell wrote a what some have called a high-school-level apologetics book that answers some of these types of objections. He says there is more evidence that Jesus Christ existed than Julius Caesar. It's strange how people will accept the accepted version of history for other historical figures, but insist on having exact original copies of the New Testament.
Re: Did Jesus Christ Exist? Questioning his historicity.
MrMan,
Don't you mean Josh Mcdowell, not John?
How can you compare Jesus to Julius Caesar? Theres no comparison. Julius Caesar is mentioned in Roman history books at the time he lived. Many famous historical figures knew him too, such as his friend Marc Anthony, his lover Cleopatra, his successor Caesar Augustus, etc. Even the whole Roman army knew him since he was their general and led them into many campaigns up north. Julius Caesar even wrote his own memoirs, which you can read online or buy a copy of.
In contrast, Jesus wrote down nothing and no famous historical figure ever claimed to have met Jesus firsthand in person. Even Pontius Pilate never mentioned Jesus in any Roman documents.
So on what basis does Josh McDowell claim that theres more evidence for Jesus than Julius Caesar?
Don't you mean Josh Mcdowell, not John?
How can you compare Jesus to Julius Caesar? Theres no comparison. Julius Caesar is mentioned in Roman history books at the time he lived. Many famous historical figures knew him too, such as his friend Marc Anthony, his lover Cleopatra, his successor Caesar Augustus, etc. Even the whole Roman army knew him since he was their general and led them into many campaigns up north. Julius Caesar even wrote his own memoirs, which you can read online or buy a copy of.
In contrast, Jesus wrote down nothing and no famous historical figure ever claimed to have met Jesus firsthand in person. Even Pontius Pilate never mentioned Jesus in any Roman documents.
So on what basis does Josh McDowell claim that theres more evidence for Jesus than Julius Caesar?
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Re: Did Jesus Christ Exist? Questioning his historicity.
The website I referenced goes over all the scams.
The one video seemed to be referencing the "Narareth Village Farm" scam.
http://www.nazarethmyth.info/scandalfive.html
The bottom line is there is no evidence Jesus existed and Nazareth didn't even exist until long after Jesus died. Christianity is a multi billion dollar industry so they will still try to deceive people.
The one video seemed to be referencing the "Narareth Village Farm" scam.
http://www.nazarethmyth.info/scandalfive.html
The bottom line is there is no evidence Jesus existed and Nazareth didn't even exist until long after Jesus died. Christianity is a multi billion dollar industry so they will still try to deceive people.
Re: Did Jesus Christ Exist? Questioning his historicity.
Have you seen that blog that Mr Peabody posted? Lol.MrMan wrote:MrPeabody,
Anyone can put up a website and claim that no historical evidence for something exists. All they have to do is not research or just ignore the existence of that thing and post a blog claiming there is no evidence.
http://www.nazarethmyth.info/naz1article.html
What an insane rant. The author actually claims that he proved that God doesnt exist simply because he challenged God to strike him down with lightning, and when God didnt comply then that is proof that he doesn't exist. LolRecently, when I argued that Jesus didn’t want me to be like the hypocrites and pray in public [Matthew 6:5–6], no one took my ‘proof’ seriously. Speaking to the ceiling, I had ‘tested’ my own claim by exclaiming “Jesus! If you agree that we should not be hypocrites and should not pray in public, give us absolutely no sign in the next ten seconds!”
Similarly, millions of people in TV audiences have been unimpressed by my ‘demonstration’ of the nonexistence of the Christian god when I have exclaimed “Jehovah! If you exist, strike me dead in the next ten minutes!” Even the fact that I am always still alive ten minutes later seems not to move the world one bit.
Man that is the lamest atheist argument i ever heard. It sounds like he has an axe to grind. Such an argument is so juvenile and petty. Not the kind that a mature adult uses. Lol
How can MrPeabody take such a nut seriously? Lol. The dude has no credibility when he makes such insane arguments and pretends they mean anything. Lol. If he was a comedian it would be one thing.
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Re: Did Jesus Christ Exist? Questioning his historicity.
When such a person finally dies, and then falls into the blackness of absolutely darkness, with blistering heat, and after the tormentor beasts have torn such a person in pieces several times, then they'll wish they could go back and try again. But their destruction will continue forever. And there will be no rescue or escape. Such a person will not be boasting then.Winston wrote:Have you seen that blog that Mr Peabody posted? Lol.MrMan wrote:MrPeabody,
Anyone can put up a website and claim that no historical evidence for something exists. All they have to do is not research or just ignore the existence of that thing and post a blog claiming there is no evidence.
http://www.nazarethmyth.info/naz1article.html
What an insane rant. The author actually claims that he proved that God doesnt exist simply because he challenged God to strike him down with lightning, and when God didnt comply then that is proof that he doesn't exist. LolRecently, when I argued that Jesus didn’t want me to be like the hypocrites and pray in public [Matthew 6:5–6], no one took my ‘proof’ seriously. Speaking to the ceiling, I had ‘tested’ my own claim by exclaiming “Jesus! If you agree that we should not be hypocrites and should not pray in public, give us absolutely no sign in the next ten seconds!”
Similarly, millions of people in TV audiences have been unimpressed by my ‘demonstration’ of the nonexistence of the Christian god when I have exclaimed “Jehovah! If you exist, strike me dead in the next ten minutes!” Even the fact that I am always still alive ten minutes later seems not to move the world one bit.
Man that is the lamest atheist argument i ever heard. It sounds like he has an axe to grind. Such an argument is so juvenile and petty. Not the kind that a mature adult uses. Lol
How can MrPeabody take such a nut seriously? Lol. The dude has no credibility when he makes such insane arguments and pretends they mean anything. Lol. If he was a comedian it would be one thing.
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Re: Did Jesus Christ Exist? Questioning his historicity.
Adama, you should know that such talk does not affect anyone not brainwashed by Christian orthodoxy. I would go much further to say that when Christians spew this nonsense at CHILDREN, it is confirmation that it is an evil and manipulative force to control people.Adama wrote: When such a person finally dies, and then falls into the blackness of absolutely darkness, with blistering heat, and after the tormentor beasts have torn such a person in pieces several times, then they'll wish they could go back and try again. But their destruction will continue forever. And there will be no rescue or escape. Such a person will not be boasting then.
I would encourage you to examine why you, as a grown man, still believe this filth? Did your parents indoctrinate you with this, or did Sunday School teachers do it?
Whatever the case, it fails the test of reason. Most people, living and dead, are not Christians. So I guess the "fiery pitchforks of hell" have pricked 99% of people who have ever lived.
You are being superstitious and creepy even. Keep your religious fairy tales to yourself if you have nothing but juvenile scare tactics to make your case.
Re: Did Jesus Christ Exist? Questioning his historicity.
This section is entitled Religion and Spirituality. So my Christianity posts are allowed. And specifically this thread is about Christianity.
I would wonder why you need to come in here to flame me with your sassiness, but I already know the answer: you hate God, Christianity, Christians, and probably many other things. That's your problem, not mine. Personally I don't care whether you hate my posts or not. I post regardless. Now if you hassle me, I will just ignore you. You're acting like an unreasonable person.
As for the 99%, if they were meek people who were willing to believe in the Lord, then God will show them His salvation to get them into eternal life. God is capable of getting anyone saved, as long as they are humble. It doesn't matter where or when they lived. God is all powerful and He foreknew who could believe in His Son and who wouldn't.
And as for the unfortunate people who refused to believe because they loved the pleasure of unrighteousness for a season over the prospect of love, peace, glory, joy, rest, light, air, fellowship, water and food for eternity, God obviously doesn't want them in His Kingdom. If God had wanted unrighteous people in His Kingdom, then He would not demand what He does. So if they want to live unrestricted, then God will not invite them to live forever in His Household.
Like I said, the choice belongs to the person. Eternal life, which entails love, glory, joy, peace, food, air, water, and rest forever with the Lord and God Himself in His fullness; or eternal blistering heat, maggots, black darkness, starvation, thirst, soot and sulfur for air, and repeatedly torn to pieces by tormentor beasts forever. The choice is quite simple.
You can choose to believe it is fiction if you want though. No skin off my back.
I would wonder why you need to come in here to flame me with your sassiness, but I already know the answer: you hate God, Christianity, Christians, and probably many other things. That's your problem, not mine. Personally I don't care whether you hate my posts or not. I post regardless. Now if you hassle me, I will just ignore you. You're acting like an unreasonable person.
As for the 99%, if they were meek people who were willing to believe in the Lord, then God will show them His salvation to get them into eternal life. God is capable of getting anyone saved, as long as they are humble. It doesn't matter where or when they lived. God is all powerful and He foreknew who could believe in His Son and who wouldn't.
And as for the unfortunate people who refused to believe because they loved the pleasure of unrighteousness for a season over the prospect of love, peace, glory, joy, rest, light, air, fellowship, water and food for eternity, God obviously doesn't want them in His Kingdom. If God had wanted unrighteous people in His Kingdom, then He would not demand what He does. So if they want to live unrestricted, then God will not invite them to live forever in His Household.
Like I said, the choice belongs to the person. Eternal life, which entails love, glory, joy, peace, food, air, water, and rest forever with the Lord and God Himself in His fullness; or eternal blistering heat, maggots, black darkness, starvation, thirst, soot and sulfur for air, and repeatedly torn to pieces by tormentor beasts forever. The choice is quite simple.
You can choose to believe it is fiction if you want though. No skin off my back.
Re: Did Jesus Christ Exist? Questioning his historicity.
Winston wrote:Why would the jewish talmud and muslim koran, which are opposed to Christianity, admit that jesus existed if he didnt?
Does the Talmud really say Jesus exists? His existence wasn't their primary concern. And they deny the claims that "Jesus" was the Messiah, whether he existed or not. Islam accepts that Jesus existed as a prophet, but say the crucifixion was a hoax. So both sources say, at minimum, that the New Testament contains serious errors. So once you establish there are errors, it kind of makes the whole thing unreliable. What is more strange is that the Muslims believe in the virgin birth, even though this is obviously imported from Egyptian religion.
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