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DarkMinxMish wrote:I think God can be spiteful or wrathful I should say.
It seems in the bible he was suppose to exist in a void just himself and the "darkness" which I guess represents evil or the shadows.
Then eventually he got lonely and had a bright idea to create heaven, the earth, and everything else in between.
How can an omnipotent being who created the universe have a personality and human psyche?
lonely, spiteful, wrathful.
A God that loved you would not be spiteful, especially since he is omnipotent. To be both spiteful and omnipotent is irresponsible.
Spite is the behaviour of a spurned young female lover, not a God.
DarkMinxMish wrote:I think God can be spiteful or wrathful I should say.
It seems in the bible he was suppose to exist in a void just himself and the "darkness" which I guess represents evil or the shadows.
Then eventually he got lonely and had a bright idea to create heaven, the earth, and everything else in between.
How can an omnipotent being who created the universe have a personality and human psyche?
lonely, spiteful, wrathful.
A God that loved you would not be spiteful, especially since he is omnipotent. To be both spiteful and omnipotent is irresponsible.
Spite is the behaviour of a spurned young female lover, not a God.
Yeah, but doesn't the bible state that we were made in his/their "image"? Also I don't think our thoughts, personalities, and psyche just
came from nowhere. In order for someone far beyond our comprehension to understand us; he has to know how we are/operate and the bible most certainly proves this.
God just tries to teach us beyond that. I see us as a potent mixture of good and evil. That's what makes us so interesting and plus Satan was a ultimate creation who became evil by giving into his feelings and pride. God may not be spiteful (though you put anyone before him he comes close), but he can most certainly be wrathful when he chooses. To discuss his nature is difficult I think in our terms or way of seeing things.
But I do believe God, Jesus, or what ever you want to call him is a very complex being.
Pricking up her golden head:
We must not look at goblin men,
We must not buy their fruits:
Who knows upon what soil they fed
Their hungry thirsty roots?"
Okay your right it would be irresponsible for God to be spiteful or wrathful. Maybe it's just what we perceive as wrathful to us in his behavior. Like how we project our qualities onto him and he is just not like us at all. God has never been human and never will be, but he understands us...I think since each of us hold sparks of him, he lives through us...it's strange. lol
Anyway I was reading some parts of a book called 'Urantia'. It's is very resourceful and complex in it's discussion life, God, and the universe.
I'd recommend it most definitely. Urantia describes God as being neither wrathful nor vengeful he loves us entirely. It's just the sin he's absolutely hates and so our ways bring about what we think of a angry God.
Pricking up her golden head:
We must not look at goblin men,
We must not buy their fruits:
Who knows upon what soil they fed
Their hungry thirsty roots?"
DarkMinxMish wrote:I think God can be spiteful or wrathful I should say.
It seems in the bible he was suppose to exist in a void just himself and the "darkness" which I guess represents evil or the shadows.
Then eventually he got lonely and had a bright idea to create heaven, the earth, and everything else in between.
How can an omnipotent being who created the universe have a personality and human psyche?
lonely, spiteful, wrathful.
A God that loved you would not be spiteful, especially since he is omnipotent. To be both spiteful and omnipotent is irresponsible.
Spite is the behaviour of a spurned young female lover, not a God.
You are correct that a God that loved a person would not be spiteful. What does the state of being omnipotent have to do with whether this being is spiteful or not? How can a truly omnipotent God not spiteful? How is this possible? I do not understand? Am I misreading what you wrote? It is correct though that a spiteful and omnipotent God would be irresponsible.
Classical gnosticism as per Indian Vedas and mystic texts says that:
- the Creator is one, infinite, and made of pure light and love;
- the Creator, being one, cannot "see" himself and rejoice of his essence unless he divides into sub-unities and plays a unique "cosmic game": that of letting his sub-unities forget who they are and where they come from, and follow the path back to their Creator, through a potentially large number of experiences, including incarnation in a physical world.
This is my belief. That we are but small splinters of the mirror that reflects the One, tiny parts of the infinite Creator who have a long, long way to go before reuniting with Him. Under this idea, the distinction between good and evil stops making any sense. We as humankind were given the gift of free will, and we can use it to shape our physical experience and choose between love towards ourselves (which carries all the attributes that religions see as "negative": possession, selfishness, greed, perversion, etc.) and love towards the others, the pious kind of love. In fact, since we are all part of the One, loving oneself is just as "right" as loving somebody else. Loving oneself just makes our path back to the Creator, our process of spiritual refinement longer and more difficult. In the end, all souls will reunite with their Creator. Sitting in a realm beyond time and space and being infinite love and misericordy, as well as being the prime author of this game of choices, the Creator surely isn't running out of patience.
If we could convince ourselves about this simple principle, we would stop fearing death, fearing divine judgement after committing what we call evil acts, and therefore stop delegating our salvation to humna artifacts: dogmas, religious prescriptions and their agents (priests). We are incarnated here to experience and use our free will to try and catch a gimpse of the infinitive love and light of our Creator. After our physical death, we will return to a higher state of consciousness where we will better see our potential connection to the Creator and our strive towards this path. We, or perhaps someone above us, will then be giving us another mission, perhaps another physical incarnation on this planet or one of the million others in the universe, and the cycle will restart unabated.
To answer your question about our Christian God being sometime portrayed as spiteful, wrathful and vindicative, not unlike the description ancient Greeks and Romans give us about their gods and demi-gods, this can be explained by the fact that the entities (Annunaki?) that physically met our ancestors tens of thousands years ago may have well been higher beings than us, or even simple more evolved physical beings with better knowledge and technologies, yet relatively unevolved compared to the Creator, thus subject to the same free will, the same kind of "polarised" choices, an ego, perhaps even less than charitable agendas.
In short yes, I believe the being called Jahve in the Bible, the one who spoke to Moses, was a higher being, but perhaps just a couple of notches above our humanity, and surely very far detached from the infinite love and light that is the Creator. Our planet may have been visited by any kind of entity purporting to be God, or a God, with whatever attributes come from exercising free will. Still, I think the important thing is to remember that we are part of a cosmic act of love and light, to which we shall return after a number of journeys.
DarkMinxMish wrote:Yeah, but doesn't the bible state that we were made in his/their "image"? Also I don't think our thoughts, personalities, and psyche just came from nowhere. In order for someone far beyond our comprehension to understand us; he has to know how we are/operate and the bible most certainly proves this.
just my opinion but... i think, it's useless debating whether God exists or not or what his nature is or shit like that.
I like deep philosophical questions don' t get me wrong but, well it gets boring as shit talking and reading about it... sorry if i offended anyone but.. this thread topic sucks. I think God whoever he is... even if he exists... he/it is irrelevant in our daily practical lives... we are alone either way. I'm not against intellectual discussion but... sometimes i think... it's like jerking off too much or... arguing with a woman... unproductive and not even interesting
Presuambly your talking about the version of God that people choose to believe in; which can be quickly disproven with What Victor Stenger calls the three Os.
The simple version of his argument is that if God is all powerful then he could prevent all the disasters that have happened.
If he is as benevelant as religious people choose to believe then he must not be very powerful otherwise he would prevent these disasters.
Therefore he can't be all powerful and benevelant.
Quick easy and simple until a religious person comes along and makes an argument none of which I have seen that make sense.
That doesn't mean that I think a hypothetical God could and would be evil for the sake of evil as evil is often portrayed. If this hypothetical God did exist and it influenced religion then it would esentually be a cult leader that has been indoctrinating people to believe what tehy've been told. this hypothetical God would have to have some motive but it wouldn't be the best interest of people; otherwise he would have comunicated in a more honest manner long ago and he wouldn't have remained silent while so many religions propped up so many dicators.
If this hypothetical God existed and this was the way he acomplished his goals what could those goals possibly be?
DarkMinxMish wrote:Yeah, but doesn't the bible state that we were made in his/their "image"? Also I don't think our thoughts, personalities, and psyche just came from nowhere. In order for someone far beyond our comprehension to understand us; he has to know how we are/operate and the bible most certainly proves this.
I am sorry. I thought you were intelligent.
My mistake.
Whatever ph. lol
What was wrong with my statement? I just expressed my point of view? Do you not think the bible pretty much explains a majority of man's behavior whether good or bad. I think it makes some impressive points. Even if it seems nonsensical some of the time.
Plus don't you believe we were made in God's image...even though it says "our" in the bible.
I always found that point particularly interesting.
Also Boner I don't think God is irrelevant in our lives, in fact he's always there with us. I mean our minds and thoughts are backwards as we concern ourself with surviving in a world that is insane. To God it seems we're not suppose to let this stuff get us down and see beyond all of this.
If you believe Jesus really existed than he lived a life that is still marvelous to many of us today.
He was against everything man stood for in his daily life. If he existed today he would be against corporations, our treatment of the poor, children, greed, and etc...We don't stop to just have peace and just look at our lives and existence.
Jesus was never worried about the daily things in life, because he understood the fact that God was always with him.
I think Jesus was a transcendant who was trying to show people what life was suppose to be and not how it was.
Though I do understand your perspective. God seems highly illogical in a very logical world.
Pricking up her golden head:
We must not look at goblin men,
We must not buy their fruits:
Who knows upon what soil they fed
Their hungry thirsty roots?"
In a nutshell, my point is that just because the Bible or Christianity say God is perfect and blameless doesn't make it true. Especially since the Bible was written by dubious anonymous men and hence has no credibility or authority.
Also its a fallacy to assume that a Creator must be perfect. Thats like saying that your parents created u therefore they must be perfect. It doesn't follow. Or that the designers of a video game simulation must be perfect because they are the designers. The logic does not follow.
It's just brainwashing to make u feel like a guilty sinner compared to a perfect God. Because if God is not perfect then u will not feel like a guilty sinner that needs a savior. So it's just mind control propaganda with no basis.
See what i mean? None of the ancient natural cultures ever taught that the gods were perfect. Only a control system like the Abrahamic religions teach that.
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"It takes far less effort to find and move to the society that has what you want than it does to try to reconstruct an existing society to match your standards." - Harry Browne
I don't get why you are not allowed to blame God for anything as though he was above blame and blameless. What's wrong with blaming God for all your problems? If God is in control, as Christians claim, then he's responsible for everything right?
Isnt it a double standard to praise or thank God for good things, but not blame him for the bad things in life? Thats not logical and is a clear double standard. Plus there's no logical reason to believe God is perfect. Basic logic says God must be both good and bad since he created good and bad things and Creation is a reflection of the Creator, as our founding father Thomas Paine said. Even the Bible says God creates both good and evil. So does Hinduism and Gnosticism and advanced occultism and mysticism.
Furthermore not one single verses in the Bible says we have free will. That is a man made concept. So u can't blame everything on free will. Especially since we cannot control most things in life.
If u dont like a company policy u have the right to blame the CEO. If u dont like a book u have the right to blame the author. So if u dont like this world u have the right to blame the Creator. Right? I know it won't accomplish anything. But u have the right. Because the Creator is responsible for his Creation. Its logical.
Consider this: if a CEO decided to do nothing to fix the problems of his company and blamed everyone else for their bad decisions or their free will, and never took responsibility for anything, that CEO would be seen as a bum and fired by the board of directors. Right? Of course.
So why then is it ok for the God of the Bible or Christian God to do nothing to fix the problems and injustices of this world and blame everyone else but himself? No one accepts a king or leader who does that in the real world.
Imagine a CEO saying:
"I am perfect. I dont need to do anything. Every problem is other people's fault. They made bad choices with their free will. I'm perfect and blameless. I dont need to do anything."
Everyone would call for that CEO to be fired. No one would accept that. So why is God allowed to get away with that kind of attitude? It makes no sense if u think about it.
Im no longer under Christian brainwashing. So i dont assume that God must be perfect just because Christian tradition says so. Theres no evidence or logic to support that a Creator has to be perfect. The ancient cultures never believed their gods were perfect. Only Christianity has that unreasonable belief without basis.
Once i broke free of Christian mind control in 1992 i could think for myself and follow the evidence and data wherever it may lead. A Christian would not dare think these things of course. Because they live in fear.
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"It takes far less effort to find and move to the society that has what you want than it does to try to reconstruct an existing society to match your standards." - Harry Browne
The standard Christian explanation is that God is perfect and blameless and all the bad things in this world is mankind's fault due to the Fall in the Garden of Eden. However that doesn't hold water and is just a cheap excuse and cop out. It never made any sense. One little mistake doesn't warrant 6000 years of pain and suffering. Especially since the mistake was trivial and done by a naive dumb couple who knew nothing, like Adam and Eve. Would u punish a kid for life just for a trivial infraction? Of course not. No one would. So why would a just God do that?
The Genesis story is metaphorical to me. i don't take it literally. It makes no sense if taken literally. No one would cause pain and suffering and injustice in a whole world for 6000 years just because two naive dumb people ate a dumb apple off the wrong tree. Even when i was a Christian i had trouble accepting that. Who would take that seriously?
It's 100 percent unjust and 100 percent nonsense. Why would a just God do something 100 percent unjust? I could never reconcile that even when i was a Christian. Many Christians lose their faith after a while because its impossible to reconcile stuff like that. Dont u think about it too?
Are any of you former Christians here? If so, didn't you wonder about these things too?
All my research tells me the Bible is metaphorical. Not literal. There are flat earth verses in the Bible too. And Jesus says to cut off your body parts if u sin. And he says to give away all your money and become a homeless bum. Etc. No one would do that. No Christian does that either. So its impossible to follow everything literally in the Bible.
Even if God is real it doesnt mean the Bible is authoritative or literally true. Einstein said there was a divine intelligence that organized the universe for sure. But he didn't believe in a personal God or organized religion. Every genius in history believed the same thing. They said that both religion and atheism were wrong and that truth lay beyond both extremes.
The Bible was written by men and is not infallible or authoritative. If God wrote it and handed it to me personally I'd consider it of course. But the Bible was written by anonymous dubious men. So it has no credibility to me. Sure it contains some truth but its mixed with agendas too. Nothing written by men is perfect. No book is totally false or totally true.
Plus the Bible itself doesn't claim to be perfect or God written. Only 2 verses mention inspiration. Not dictation. Inspiration is not dictation. Also Paul said in 3 verses that his books are his opinion only and not God's opinion. That debunks the bible being God's word right there. If 3 verses say the Bible is not God's word then it cannot all be God's word. So the doctrine of biblical inerrancy is rendered impossible and self-contradictory.
Furthermore, 2 verses about inspiration does not make the entire Bible into God's literal word. That's ridiculous and unwarranted. Moreover, the Bible was not even formed at the time those two verses were written. The modern Bible we have wasn't formulated until the 1600s by King James and his scholars. Also it's been changed and revised many times, even by King James.
Btw even if the Bible was literal and not metaphorical, that doesn't mean the modern American made evangelical Christian interpretation is the only correct one. There are many many different interpretations of the Bible. Even a group of totally logical and rational people could read the Bible and come up with different interpretations. The Bible does not say one thing and is not even consistent in every book and every verse. Anyone who thinks it is is deluded. So even if the Bible is meant to be literal, there are still countless different interpretations. So Christians still lose either way.
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"It takes far less effort to find and move to the society that has what you want than it does to try to reconstruct an existing society to match your standards." - Harry Browne
As a flawed human being with a flawed sense of justice, you do not always recognized God's justice or understand His wrath. Adam had one command to follow, and he violated it. (Btw, there is no reference to an apple in the story.)
I was raised to be a free thinker who came to my own conclusions about the world. My parents are Christian but did not insist on teaching religion to me beyond normal, basic information. We didn’t go to church and I did have a agnostic phase back in high school.
As I’ve gotten older though, I’ve started seeing more and more of what I consider to be proof that Christianity is fundamentally a good religion with a lot of wisdom behind its teachings. I don’t necessarily agree with everything that is taught by “the church” you might say but I am seeing that it’s worth putting faith in the Christian lifestyle and set of beliefs. Ultimately Christian values are what kept this nation together since it’s founding and Christian values are what made Europe one of the greatest civilizations on Earth. It is secular values that have slowly eroded and destroyed the quality of life in the Western countries.
And the reason I came to this conclusion is because ultimately Christian people do seem to have much better moral values and they behave with more kindness then secular people do. If I meet a girl and she tells me that she was raised by a religious family and went to church. Usually she turns out to be a much nicer person and a better girlfriend/wife then a secular girl without religion is.
And I will say I judge the moral fiber of a culture and set of beliefs based on what kind of women their culture/beliefs create and I can say that Christian beliefs have proven themselves to be good to me because almost every Christian girl I’ve met has been a much better person in every way then secular girls are.
I was raised to be a free thinker who came to my own conclusions about the world. My parents are Christian but did not insist on teaching religion to me beyond normal, basic information. We didn’t go to church and I did have a agnostic phase back in high school.
As I’ve gotten older though, I’ve started seeing more and more of what I consider to be proof that Christianity is fundamentally a good religion with a lot of wisdom behind its teachings. I don’t necessarily agree with everything that is taught by “the church” you might say but I am seeing that it’s worth putting faith in the Christian lifestyle and set of beliefs. Ultimately Christian values are what kept this nation together since it’s founding and Christian values are what made Europe one of the greatest civilizations on Earth. It is secular values that have slowly eroded and destroyed the quality of life in the Western countries.
And the reason I came to this conclusion is because ultimately Christian people do seem to have much better moral values and they behave with more kindness then secular people do. If I meet a girl and she tells me that she was raised by a religious family and went to church. Usually she turns out to be a much nicer person and a better girlfriend/wife then a secular girl without religion is.
And I will say I judge the moral fiber of a culture and set of beliefs based on what kind of women their culture/beliefs create and I can say that Christian beliefs have proven themselves to be good to me because almost every Christian girl I’ve met has been a much better person in every way then secular girls are.
My biggest problem with Christianity is that Christians are using the Be Fruitful and Multiply clause to keep breeding alot during a mass extinction cutting the throats of us all right noW AND ALSO THEY ARE SOO STUPID THEY CANNOT SEE WHAT THEY ARE DOING WHEN THEY DO THIS.
