How did the way things are in the US go from the 70s to now?

[Wolfeye]

I think that women DO owe men one thing: If he shows an interest & she's not interested, she DOES owe it to him to let him down gently. Assuming he wasn't being a serious asshole (ex: "Hey, bitch- want to f**k?"). I get the impression that women are taught not to be self-recriminating on that level.

[Wolfeye]

Also, I don't think growup is really doing anything feminazi-esque or harping on something of her own thinking- there WAS a post about one owing the other. I would also think if someone's playing the "you owe me game," they're maybe not quite a good catch. I DO think someone can owe someone else, like a husband shouldn't be cheating on a wife that's stuck by him & raised their kids, but it doesn't make sense that the whole "no one owes you" thing would socially spring up out of nowhere.

Socially, I think it's to erode reciprocity- which is serious. Pretty much the whole way relationships are maintained.

[Contrarian Expatriate]

Also, I don't think growup is really doing anything feminazi-esque or harping on something of her own thinking- there WAS a post about one owing the other.

I beg to differ. To be a Western female is to, per se, be a feminist whether acknowledged or not. Further, the fact that she seized upon the popular feminist mantra of not "owing" anything to men, harkens back to the common feminist complaint that "Men need to stop feeling that women owe them sex."

I have never heard of any male who feels he is owed sex (outside of marriage), but feminists use this tactic as a collective gaslighting campaign to:

1-Artificially raise the perception of their sexual value by insinuating scarcity.
2-Proactively shame men about wanting sex from women.
3-Increasing the likelihood of male compliance and or submission before sexual favors are granted.

In the case of @growup, any Western female reference to "I don't owe men anything," is therefore a play upon that common feminist theme, whether wittingly or not. It is akin to an obese woman's angry demand that men need to stop viewing women as sex objects. While almost no men would view her in such a way, her employment of that motif is a feeble attempt to raise her value in the eyes of others.

The converse would be the unemployed, poor man frustratingly demanding that women need to stop expecting men to be their personal ATM machines. This might tend to give one the impression that the man has some measure of economic means when he, in fact, does not.

[growup]

Also, I don't think growup is really doing anything feminazi-esque or harping on something of her own thinking- there WAS a post about one owing the other. I would also think if someone's playing the "you owe me game," they're maybe not quite a good catch. I DO think someone can owe someone else, like a husband shouldn't be cheating on a wife that's stuck by him & raised their kids, but it doesn't make sense that the whole "no one owes you" thing would socially spring up out of nowhere.

Socially, I think it's to erode reciprocity- which is serious. Pretty much the whole way relationships are maintained.

I appreciate the kind words, but people are gonna think whatever they are gonna think.
Have a great day

[Wolfeye]

Contrarian Expatriate: I get the idea that you're talking about, but just because there's likely influences & parallel phrasing doesn't mean that she's "pulling that particular sled." There's any number of situations where I could come off like a greedy, paranoid American- it's really just that I don't have a lot of money to throw around & the nation's paranoia gives someone something to worry about.

I think areas with feminist influence ARE more likely to have more bullshit, don't get me wrong, but I think it's a false conclusion to think everything from feminist areas is feminist nonsense.

[Wolfeye]

growup: Thanks, you too.

[Wolfeye]

You know, it's odd: I grew up in a decidedly bullshitter country & I had an assortment of bad traits that I don't have anymore.

For instance: I used to think that when a chick did all kinds of direct stuff (ex: brushing up past you when there's plenty of room, backing into your hand, etc...) that that meant she wanted to go screw around in the bathroom, she'd let me know when, and she'd also let me know if she wanted to take it further & have a relationship- but if I made a move on any of that, I was being an asshole & it would drive her off!

It's pretty much the EXACT opposite, isn't it?

None of that was ever taught to me directly, it was all subtext. But that's more or less how you learn, isn't it? You learn words from how they're used. You learn when they're not really being meant literally or as they're typically used from the subtleties of the situation. I would look at this general environment as a sabotaging one.

Interestingly enough, America used to be referred to as a SMELTING pot, not a MELTING pot. The latter sounds like mixed cheese or something & that's what they harped-on in school. The former is more like "whatever the metal, whatever the shape, whatever the condition, the effort is to melt it down & zero it out." Oddly enough, it would more or less only be good for that in that state.

This wasn't just a phrase that I interpreted to be this particular way, either. One picture I saw was of a poster that had a bunch of human shapes looking like they were being fed into a big cauldron. Looked like a poster for some whatever-era-that-was horror movie.

[fdiv]

"Stranger Danger" played a huge part in the disconnection of American culture. Adults began teaching children to flee from every stranger screaming for help. Children in the 80s and 90s were being taught that the entire outdoors, every single square foot of it, is the hood, like even the quietest streets in the world have upwards of 75 to 150 drive-by shootings a day. And today those same kids, as adults, not only are disconnected and hateful, but they have withdrawn almost permanently indoors; they don't leave their residence except for work, school, and shopping only. To them, even rural country towns are a nonstop drive-by shooting scene, loaded with gangs, serial killers, and terrorists. As in to them, you step outside and you'll get immediately blasted by AK-47 fire.

With all due respect, sir, you are the kind of person I warn my daughters about.
Would you want YOUR children to get into a car with someone you don't know?

Your daughters don't have a chance. They'll rebel against all YOU have taught them, too.

[growup]

"Stranger Danger" played a huge part in the disconnection of American culture. Adults began teaching children to flee from every stranger screaming for help. Children in the 80s and 90s were being taught that the entire outdoors, every single square foot of it, is the hood, like even the quietest streets in the world have upwards of 75 to 150 drive-by shootings a day. And today those same kids, as adults, not only are disconnected and hateful, but they have withdrawn almost permanently indoors; they don't leave their residence except for work, school, and shopping only. To them, even rural country towns are a nonstop drive-by shooting scene, loaded with gangs, serial killers, and terrorists. As in to them, you step outside and you'll get immediately blasted by AK-47 fire.

With all due respect, sir, you are the kind of person I warn my daughters about.
Would you want YOUR children to get into a car with someone you don't know?

Your daughters don't have a chance. They'll rebel against all YOU have taught them, too.

I love how you think you know my daughters.

[fdiv]

"Stranger Danger" played a huge part in the disconnection of American culture. Adults began teaching children to flee from every stranger screaming for help. Children in the 80s and 90s were being taught that the entire outdoors, every single square foot of it, is the hood, like even the quietest streets in the world have upwards of 75 to 150 drive-by shootings a day. And today those same kids, as adults, not only are disconnected and hateful, but they have withdrawn almost permanently indoors; they don't leave their residence except for work, school, and shopping only. To them, even rural country towns are a nonstop drive-by shooting scene, loaded with gangs, serial killers, and terrorists. As in to them, you step outside and you'll get immediately blasted by AK-47 fire.

With all due respect, sir, you are the kind of person I warn my daughters about.
Would you want YOUR children to get into a car with someone you don't know?

Your daughters don't have a chance. They'll rebel against all YOU have taught them, too.

I love how you think you know my daughters.

I love how you think you know them. That's why they'll rebel!