History Questions

[Wolfeye]

Hey, everyone. Got numerous questions on history, particularly on the stuff that modern bullshit is based on (ex: Puritanical beliefs turning into a workaholic society with an extreme issue with, from what it seems, things going well). As I understand, there's a lot of Hobbs-Darwin-Spencer influence to a universally corrosive attitude- all that "survival of the fittest" (which implies a kind of "floor is lava" dynamic to existance) is strongly related to that, and if someone sees someone or something else surviving that means that they themselves are not the "fittest" being referenced. This, of course, applies in business which applies to economics.

Anyway, that's the type of thing I'm looking for. Any book or article advice would be greatly appreciated.

[onethousandknives]

http://www.oodegr.co/english/koinwnia/p ... ismos1.htm

Think this is up your alley.

[cardinalattentive]

I am looking for only answer, The question is which one is the oldest Business.

[Adama]

Hey, everyone. Got numerous questions on history, particularly on the stuff that modern bullshit is based on (ex: Puritanical beliefs turning into a workaholic society with an extreme issue with, from what it seems, things going well). As I understand, there's a lot of Hobbs-Darwin-Spencer influence to a universally corrosive attitude- all that "survival of the fittest" (which implies a kind of "floor is lava" dynamic to existance) is strongly related to that, and if someone sees someone or something else surviving that means that they themselves are not the "fittest" being referenced. This, of course, applies in business which applies to economics.

Anyway, that's the type of thing I'm looking for. Any book or article advice would be greatly appreciated.

Keep looking. You'll stumble upon the answer eventually if you keep looking for it. I doubt anyone here knows the answer to your questions.

[gsjackson]

As 1000knives points out, Max Weber is still considered the authoritative text on the relationship of Puritanism to capitalism. They were Calvinists, believed in predestination (i.e., that you were either among the elect from birth, or you weren't). But instead of accepting the predestined fates, they were determined to demonstrate the "signs of election" -- big houses and other markers of affluence, in order to make it seem that God was smiling upon them and they were in fact likely to be among the elect. Toward the end of procuring these signs of election," the "Protestant work ethic" was born.

I don't know how relevant social Darwinism is to modern America, because it seems like only the very unfittest are reproducing. In the 19th and early 20th centuries, these views propped up racism and other elitist theories.

[Adama]

As 1000knives points out, Max Weber is still considered the authoritative text on the relationship of Puritanism to capitalism. They were Calvinists, believed in predestination (i.e., that you were either among the elect from birth, or you weren't). But instead of accepting the predestined fates, they were determined to demonstrate the "signs of election" -- big houses and other markers of affluence, in order to make it seem that God was smiling upon them and they were in fact likely to be among the elect. Toward the end of procuring these signs of election," the "Protestant work ethic" was born.

I don't know how relevant social Darwinism is to modern America, because it seems like only the very unfittest are reproducing. In the 19th and early 20th centuries, these views propped up racism and other elitist theories.

So the USA was always about out-doing your neighbor from the start? That explains much about this culture. It really does.

[gsjackson]

As 1000knives points out, Max Weber is still considered the authoritative text on the relationship of Puritanism to capitalism. They were Calvinists, believed in predestination (i.e., that you were either among the elect from birth, or you weren't). But instead of accepting the predestined fates, they were determined to demonstrate the "signs of election" -- big houses and other markers of affluence, in order to make it seem that God was smiling upon them and they were in fact likely to be among the elect. Toward the end of procuring these signs of election," the "Protestant work ethic" was born.

I don't know how relevant social Darwinism is to modern America, because it seems like only the very unfittest are reproducing. In the 19th and early 20th centuries, these views propped up racism and other elitist theories.

So the USA was always about out-doing your neighbor from the start? That explains much about this culture. It really does.

Yeah, I think that's a big part of what we've always been about. There's an interesting quote from Tocqueville in a letter he sent home to his father in France in 1830. He said the Americans, ostensibly dedicated to equality and theoretically opposed to rigid status hierarchies, were always looking for some way in which they could feel superior to their neighbors. Any little degree of status would be sufficient for them to puff themselves up.

[Jester]

But instead of accepting the predestined fates, they were determined to demonstrate the "signs of election" -- big houses and other markers of affluence, in order to make it seem that God was smiling upon them and they were in fact likely to be among the elect. Toward the end of procuring these signs of election," the "Protestant work ethic" was born.

I listened just yesterday to a sermon by "Chuck Smith", an Evangelical-Christian Mega-Pastor, that reluctantly made THIS SAME POINT. Calvinism tapped into the human desire to show one's self better. While preaching humility, it activated the desire to be seen as excelling. Calvinism is at its core a barely disguised false-modesty.

Perhaps we could call this a "magnificent myth", like Aryan Superiority as preached by the Nazis, or Korean superiority as believed by most Koreans today, or "The Jews Always Win" as taught to all young Jewish men (Passover, Purim, etc.) Some teachings that are screwy and way off base have nevertheless produced socially useful results.

Weird.

[Jester]

As 1000knives points out, Max Weber is still considered the authoritative text on the relationship of Puritanism to capitalism. They were Calvinists, believed in predestination (i.e., that you were either among the elect from birth, or you weren't). But instead of accepting the predestined fates, they were determined to demonstrate the "signs of election" -- big houses and other markers of affluence, in order to make it seem that God was smiling upon them and they were in fact likely to be among the elect. Toward the end of procuring these signs of election," the "Protestant work ethic" was born.

I don't know how relevant social Darwinism is to modern America, because it seems like only the very unfittest are reproducing. In the 19th and early 20th centuries, these views propped up racism and other elitist theories.

So the USA was always about out-doing your neighbor from the start? That explains much about this culture. It really does.

I still love America, so I really don't like hearing that.

But +10 for stating the truth.

[Cornfed]

Another theory on the Protestant Work Ethic is that it arose at a time in the early industrial age when the amount of stuff produced was directly proportionate to the amount of work done. Therefore societies with the greatest work ethic could outproduce and defeat other societies in battle, and so it spread.