Question for MarcosZeitola and publicduende

[S_Parc]

Here's my question for the diehard love struck optimists, Marcos and Public ... as time goes by, it appears that both of you have become kinda evangelical and wrapped up in your beatitude of what constitutes a happy union and purpose in life. Why is that?

Because as I'm getting closer and closer to that date with destiny (yes, it's inevitable), I'm having the opposite reaction. Like Homer's Odysseus, it's more like I'm coming home, years after the Trojan War and being swept around at sea. And thus, I'm caring less and less about what other people think, what everyone's plan for their future is, and all that jazz related to convincing ppl of the Tao.

It's more that I've accepted the phases of life; so for some time, I was in Troy, then in the ocean, and now, in my respective place in life. And in a way, I don't discount any of those steps, except for perhaps my first 17 years in that Jerry Springer household. But even there, I still learned something, which helped me later on in life. So my growing domestic bliss is making me less excited about HA topics and less passionate about convincing others except for perhaps, relaying the difficult experiences of what it's like, growing in both, a dysfunctional household and in a society where men are actively discriminated against by a slew of women and their white knights.

[MarcosZeitola]

The last thing I want to do, is knock you down or talk negatively about the relationship between you and Mel. You make a very unusual couple, but you have found happiness together and a relationship that works. What works for one man, may not work for another. You found your own happiness, you found what works for you. You had a very bad childhood, and some bad luck in life. Things happen. What comes early for some, others have to wait a lifetime for and some never find it at all.

What you found was a closeness with another human being. It’s not a conventional relationship, as you said so a million time, but I never said you have to be conventional in order to achieve happiness. The very purpose of this site is that we break with conventions, go against the current and dare live life by our own rules. That’s an admirable quality to have, and I admire men like Winston for advocating such a step on a site like this.

You found a girl in the Western world, in America. You have an arrangement that fulfils you. As it is a one-in-a-million type of situation, other men cannot realistically expect to have what you have. Though we are unconventional in that we leave our respective countries, many of us are conventional in one way. In a very human way: we DO seek companionship. Why go abroad if you will just be miserable and lonely there? Why bang hoes in Asia when you can bang them in America? It seems vulgar and counterproductive to me to make Happier Abroad about nothing but sex. I know there’s no shortage of misfits here who simply cannot get sex without paying for it, let alone actual romance, but to me it SHOULD be the ideal.

Am I evangelical about this? Too passionate? I don’t know. You seem to think I am. I’m an optimistic man, I’m in love, and I am passionate about the way I see things. I know full well I am not some sort of sage, I am no prophet of love. I’m far too young, far too inexperienced for that. At the same time, I’ve always led a fairly busy existence and I dare say I had a fuller life than some other members of my age, some of whom are still virgins or would be if it weren’t for hookers, bargirls & girlfriend-experiences. To me that’s sad, because I have lived a different life, I have known a different love and I feel fulfilled by this like never before. I know what empty, meaningless sex feels like and how it doesn’t compare to being with someone who loves you truly, and who you truly love back.

I’ve been in the party scene, I’ve been the lustful teenager, the “bad boy”, the drunkard. I’ve heard loud music, I have done drugs, I have lived the hedonistic lifestyle of so many young Western people these days. To them it is fulfilling, apparently. They laugh, they drink, they f**k and they laugh about whoever doesn’t join them in their bacchanals. Some of my friends at home still live such a lifestyle, but to me it seems empty and meaningless. I have seen their obsession with drivers licenses, motor cycles, owning cars. Their obsession for gadgets, iPhones, game consoles, brand clothing… I see this whole generation of guys and girls who hop from meaningless relationship into meaningless relationship. Who wake up every morning with an aching head full of regret, frantically trying to recall the name of the person next to them before he or she wakes up.

This life, this modern, 21th century life, it has no appeal to me. I long for a simple life, I long to have a family. I am a man of simple tastes, I don’t need luxury and I don’t need fake friends who care only about money, material possessions, p***y count and status. What I want is true, warm friendship. A wife who loves me, children and animals to surround myself with, business and various activities to keep me occupied. Immersing myself into a culture so different from my own, where family ties are warmer and closer. Learning new languages, adapting to a new society that is more traditional and laid back then my own, and in which I have found that I fit much better. I was tired of the rat race, of keeping up appearances, of bullshitting to elevate myself and the overwhelming vibe of emptiness it all eluded. I was tired of it, so I opted out.

I knew what I wanted, back then, and all the things I have seen and experienced since I first went abroad, have strengthened me in my beliefs. I found my way, and my way has lead me to a life that is more traditional then yours, S_Parc. Your background and my own are very different… my family was warm, and I was and still am close to them. Some of my views will still change. Some of my opinions will be different in ten years to how they are now. Life for me has only just begun, and there’s a million more things for me to arrange and settle.

I don’t hold the gospel truth, I don’t preach and I don’t know all the answer. What I do know, is what worked for me. And talking to many other young men my age, abroad and at home, online and offline, I know I am not alone in wanting what I want. That some feelings, some desires, so needs, are practically universal. And that we should prioritize that which makes us the happiest, and eliminate that which gives us the most pain. And that it is for each of us to decide which is which, and how to go about doing that.

[S_Parc]

Marcos, you'd started a vehement anti-MGTOW thread and continually advocate for your vision of a relationship. You don't grow calmer over time, but instead, act like someone on that Road to Damascus, if you know what I mean. That's partly why you're getting into these tizzies with guys like newlifeinphilippines. That guy's taken on a negative attitude towards certain ppl but for the most part, he's isolated himself from harm's way. I say … good for him and let him move on.

BTW, in a few years, Mel and I will be celebrating our 20th anniversary of our friendship. At that time, we'll be married (it's inevitable) and perhaps, start our own family. And yes, I'm the only guy she was ever with but today, I don't ask for that anymore, because she's already given a lot to me and while she's mentally ready for having me, I'd rather just let her be in her most comfortable natural state. What's more important to me is that she's always by my side.

If some ppl find love abroad and can make it work, great. But at the same time, I realize that there are cultural differences and many ppl can't adapt. My Brazilian ex-GF had left me because of my dysfunctional family of birth. Was I hurt/insulted? Sure, but I also realize that in a lot of cultures, tight knit families are the way of the land and Jerry Springer sons are generally not considered good family men. In contrast, Mel has done everything to blockade members of her immediate family from my father and sister. She's watching my back at all times, while at the same time, taking care of her own immediate family.

So what’s the average guy suppose to do, if he's stuck in America? I think many will have to adapt some version of MGTOW but at the same time, be open for something else. Thus, when Mel and I re-discovered each other, she was impressed at how I organized my life. It resonated with her growing up in a Naval household and soon, she latched onto me. I'm sure that a female ex-pat, getting some educational or vocational training in America, would have also been impressed with me but Mel's timing had made that a moot point. Today, none of that stuff matters anymore and I'm simply living life, the way it's suppose to be lived. Now that I've found that, everything's calmed down and I don't get riled up over HA topics anymore.

[publicduende]

LOL do I really qualify as a "diehard optimist"? True, I am not as pessimist, jaded and cynical as most of you guys (especially the ones from the US), but that doesn't mean I am blind to the fact that finding a woman worth having a LTR with or marrying has always been hard and this climate of global(ised) decline isn't making it any easier.

I surely had my disappointments and frustrations in the past and, no matter what you people think, my wife didn't exactly fall on my lap like manna from the sky. I was aware of my past trials and errors and my then life situation and was open to something serious. I had already learned which girls can be good for a night or two, and which are worth a mutual investment in a relationship. My only stroke of luck was that I was in Cambridge, a city packed with foreign English students who mix and socialise in the same venues as the locals.

Whatever the high priests of the Manosphere, MGTOW and institutionalised misogyny might say, I still believe the vast majority of men and women are always better off seeking and engaging in a steady, long-term relationship. Once the magic and the excitement of a libertine lifestyle wanes and we discover ourselves far from our family, walking our forced path of personal growth (a job and professional ambitions, social responsibilities, financial commitments, etc.) virtually alone, we realise that there is value in having somebody who truly gives two shits about us, with whom we can share a few of the rare happy moments life throws at us, and whom we can entrust with anything from our most precious secrets to the menial sundries of a daily routine.

As your relationship with Mel proves, that bond can be strong and fulfilling even when one or more aspects - sexual attraction and sex in this case - are missing. You have been good friends for a tremendous amount of time, Mel knows your family situation and, from what you wrote here, has chosen to see you not as the man who lived in a dysfunctional household for 17 years, but the man who successfully grew out of its family problems and gained a great deal of wisdom and inner balance in the process.

And this inner balance, my friend, is what women really want to see in men. Sure, the stable job, the decent money, the good looks all play a role, but if a man doesn't love himself first, how can he expect a woman to love him? I am glad you possess this inner strength, and very glad that one woman, a modern American woman none the less, chose to look past all the bullshite and the drama and look at something that counts, and love you for that.

I am not sure what do you mean by being "evangelical", though. I can recall a few posts where I made no secret of the fact that I love and respect my wife to bits and, for all the inevitable ups and downs, we have been marching on for 8 years now, of which 5 as a married couple. I know marriage isn't for everyone and certainly I am not the one shoving it down anybody's throat. At the same time, I do believe no man should live his life without trying to look for love, at least a few times and settling for the best possible arrangement that fits both parties. If that arrangement is a loving marriage, so be it. If that arrangement is a life together as an unmarried couple, just as fine. That's what I have been saying in most of my posts on the topic.

There's only so much ill fortune to be had and, as most of us know full well, luck can be helped looking at societies and cultures where pockets of traditional femininity and solid moral values are still found.

You lived in South America and certainly found value in some of those people and relationships, yet could not stomach some of the aspects of Latino society, including being unnecessarily judgemental. And, ironically, after years of travelling and living abroad, you found what you were looking for right at your doorstep. Which makes perfect sense, and goes a long way to show what I have always believed: that the true endgame of the traveller is to know themselves. When this goal is disregarded, the risk is to roam the world like a lost soul, begging for transient pleasures and continuing to feel that existential emptiness in 25 different languages and shades of sun.

[S_Parc]

One of the aspects of MGTOW, albeit not really coached well by its current adherents, is that knowing of oneself.

Aside from my working with Mel, I'd also coached some of my other friends, one of whom is married, and that results are that they've found some modicum of inner harmony and either partake or not partake in dating. And yes, foreign women find them attractive because they don't come out as needy or insecure. The married guy is definitely respected by his kids, as he's much less reactive and more patient with them, as well as their mother's needs.

My big complaint, when Winston was gushing over that stripper in Carson City, was that he was auto-transforming, everyone around him into some soulmate vision. And unfortunately, a lot of ppl, always on the hunt for love, can develop that syndrome easily. This is partly why I'm not completely interested in setting a target (i.e. happy *long term union* with a woman) without the understanding of the road one's on. For some ppl, being alone will feel right but only when they've faced the fear of being alone. A lot of ppl have not faced those inner demons, like loneliness, not belonging, or in my case, being owned/controlled, and finally diminished, by my father for the rest of my natural life.

Now that the first couple of phases of life are over, I'm a lot less concerned about setting ppl's agenda aside from standing on one's two feet, proper health, etc ... the commonsense things. I can already see that a lot of marriages, including international ones, have a lot of misunderstandings and failed expectations. For a number of guys, they may not be ready or interested in the challenge. If so, then why paint a target and spend one's life taking archery lessons? With that in mind, I'm content on my road but I can't expect others to follow.