What It Means To Be A Good Father

[Lucas88]

@Tsar has a much more realistic view of how two virgins meeting each other and getting married will value each other more. If we did a social experiment I reckon the virgins would stay together and the young lads who slept with prostitutes would end up sleeping around or continuing to see prostitutes.

@Outcast9428 argues that encounters with prostitutes can prepare a young man for a monogamous life later down the line, but I know that in some men it can have the opposite effect. I started seeing prostitutes in my mid 20s while I was living in Spain and it only made me more promiscuous. I learned that I could just pay as little as 60 euros for a sexual encounter for a smoking hot, modelesque Latina with a perfect hourglass figure and much more attractive than any girl I could get naturally and then dating aesthetically mediocre girls in the real world just lost its appeal. I even became addicted to certain types of beauty and perfected physical features and reasoned that encounters with prostitutes are a better deal than having a monogamous relationship with one aesthetically mediocre woman. Given that I really fixate on aesthetics, I'd say that porn and escorts have made me more promiscuous than I would normally be.

[Pixel--Dude]

How is a woman selling sex to make money to survive and her not wanting to really do it something which is moral, yet two adults who find each other attractive and have a genuine connection not moral?

For one thing, the same reason working to get resources is often moral whereas panhandling is often not. For another, with a prostitute you are availing yourself of the services of a female who has already chosen that profession. With seducing females you are turning them into sluts when they might otherwise have made good wives, so you are ruining a potential future family with all the devastating future consequences for society just to save a few bucks.

There's nothing moral about people being forced to sell themselves for sex just to make a living. The immorality does not lie with the prostitute, who has no choice, but with the society which forces her into that lifestyle.

How many marriages do you know of that were saved by the husband sleeping with prostitutes?

What makes you think they are being forced into it? Every girl I've met who had that as her profession was a huge sex addict. I've been long term friends with several girls who worked in these kind of fields so its not like I'm just believing what girls I paid tell me. Talk to these girls outside of the paid arrangement and they pretty much say the same thing. Selling sex gives them both sex and money, and for the latter, they feel like they're basically not even working for it.

I've never had that conversation with a prostitute. My wife and I had a conversation with someone who'd been in the Church of Satan, and she talked about all the sex there. That's the closest to it I've seen.

But what you are saying doesn't make sense to me unless sex addicts just don't care much who they have sex with. If a woman sleeps around with men at the bar, she can pick one she finds attractive. But I'd imagine prostitutes get more men who aren't good enough looking to get a man based on their looks. Of course, an unattractive woman might have difficulty finding a man she finds attractive man at a bar, too.

It doesn't make sense to me either. Plus, a couple of acquaintances tell @Outcast9428 they enjoy prostitution and suddenly this is applicable to all prostitutes. I sincerely doubt that the majority of prostitutes enjoy their work, but there are probably a percentage who do enjoy being able to make £130 an hour to sell sex to men instead of busting their asses for minimum wage in a factory somewhere.

It's still a society that forces this practice into existence in the first place. Through unreasonable costs of living and bullshit ideologies that turn men and women against each other. I would not want my daughter to be a prostitute even if she was on a thousand an hour. No parent in their right mind would.

@Outcast9428, @Cornfed and @fschmidt, if you guys had a daughter how would you feel about her becoming a prostitute? Would you be supportive or oppose it?

[Cornfed]

@Outcast9428, @Cornfed and @fschmidt, if you guys had a daughter how would you feel about her becoming a prostitute? Would you be supportive or oppose it?

If she was not marriage material that would be a good use for her. I would hope she would be a high class educated prostitute. Being a high class prostitute and entertaining smart men is really the only reason for females to be particularly educated or give their opinions on any erudite subject. Otherwise they should STFU.

[Pixel--Dude]

@Tsar has a much more realistic view of how two virgins meeting each other and getting married will value each other more. If we did a social experiment I reckon the virgins would stay together and the young lads who slept with prostitutes would end up sleeping around or continuing to see prostitutes.

@Outcast9428 argues that encounters with prostitutes can prepare a young man for a monogamous life later down the line, but I know that in some men it can have the opposite effect. I started seeing prostitutes in my mid 20s while I was living in Spain and it only made me more promiscuous. I learned that I could just pay as little as 60 euros for a sexual encounter for a smoking hot, modelesque Latina with a perfect hourglass figure and much more attractive than any girl I could get naturally and then dating aesthetically mediocre girls in the real world just lost its appeal. I even became addicted to certain types of beauty and perfected physical features and reasoned that encounters with prostitutes are a better deal than having a monogamous relationship with one aesthetically mediocre woman. Given that I really fixate on aesthetics, I'd say that porn and escorts have made me more promiscuous than I would normally be.

Exactly. And wouldn't having prostitutes so readily available only make it easier for men to cheat on their wives when they can have a discreet encounter for 60 euros? He'd already have experience with them in @Outcast9428's envisioned society, so it would be easy. And according to @Cornfed it wouldn't even be immoral either.

I'm not against prostitutes existing, but I don't agree they benefit relationships in any way at all. It's more of an easy way to make lots of money fast. The Hungarian prostitute I went to see was my only positive encounter with a prostitute and she told me over a cup of tea that she had a boyfriend and she was only doing what she was doing because it was the easiest way to make as much money as possible as quickly as possible. The reason she wanted to do this was so that she could fight her ex husband in court and get custody of her kids. Her ex husband was apparently some rich business man who hired top lawyers to win the custody battle, because like she said: "in this world if you have money you have a voice. If you don't have money you don't have a voice."

[Pixel--Dude]

@Outcast9428, @Cornfed and @fschmidt, if you guys had a daughter how would you feel about her becoming a prostitute? Would you be supportive or oppose it?

If she was not marriage material that would be a good use for her. I would hope she would be a high class educated prostitute. Being a high class prostitute and entertaining smart men is really the only reason for females to be particularly educated or give their opinions on any erudite subject. Otherwise they should STFU.

Hahaha!!!

Dude, that genuinely made me laugh.

[Outcast9428]

For one thing, the same reason working to get resources is often moral whereas panhandling is often not. For another, with a prostitute you are availing yourself of the services of a female who has already chosen that profession. With seducing females you are turning them into sluts when they might otherwise have made good wives, so you are ruining a potential future family with all the devastating future consequences for society just to save a few bucks.

There's nothing moral about people being forced to sell themselves for sex just to make a living. The immorality does not lie with the prostitute, who has no choice, but with the society which forces her into that lifestyle.

How many marriages do you know of that were saved by the husband sleeping with prostitutes?

What makes you think they are being forced into it? Every girl I've met who had that as her profession was a huge sex addict. I've been long term friends with several girls who worked in these kind of fields so its not like I'm just believing what girls I paid tell me. Talk to these girls outside of the paid arrangement and they pretty much say the same thing. Selling sex gives them both sex and money, and for the latter, they feel like they're basically not even working for it.

I've never had that conversation with a prostitute. My wife and I had a conversation with someone who'd been in the Church of Satan, and she talked about all the sex there. That's the closest to it I've seen.

But what you are saying doesn't make sense to me unless sex addicts just don't care much who they have sex with. If a woman sleeps around with men at the bar, she can pick one she finds attractive. But I'd imagine prostitutes get more men who aren't good enough looking to get a man based on their looks. Of course, an unattractive woman might have difficulty finding a man she finds attractive man at a bar, too.

It doesn't make sense to me either. Plus, a couple of acquaintances tell @Outcast9428 they enjoy prostitution and suddenly this is applicable to all prostitutes. I sincerely doubt that the majority of prostitutes enjoy their work, but there are probably a percentage who do enjoy being able to make £130 an hour to sell sex to men instead of busting their asses for minimum wage in a factory somewhere.

It's still a society that forces this practice into existence in the first place. Through unreasonable costs of living and bullshit ideologies that turn men and women against each other. I would not want my daughter to be a prostitute even if she was on a thousand an hour. No parent in their right mind would.

@Outcast9428, @Cornfed and @fschmidt, if you guys had a daughter how would you feel about her becoming a prostitute? Would you be supportive or oppose it?

They were more then just acquaintances. I had really close friendships with them for about a year. I've heard the exact same thing from several other "actual" acquaintances who were doing this. Basically, its sex and money for no work. I even met some girls back in high school who told me they wanted to be strippers when they grew up. Seeing them as victims is really silly and in my experience, there's a universal hatred among prostitutes for people who view them as victims.

I'd still prefer my daughter to get married, but I'd much rather her be a prostitute then a slutty sorority girl.

[Outcast9428]

@Lucas88 @Pixel--Dude

60 Euros an hour? I've probably only spent about $200 on my girlfriend for going on dates so far and have spent somewhere between 50-100 hours with her in only about a month. Even with those cheap ass Spanish prices, you'd still need $3,000-$6,000 to get that much time. Why would anyone go to a brothel for $60 when they can just go back to their wife at home?

I really don't understand why guys, all my life, have whined about the money they spend on dates so much. I mean, $200 in a month is practically pocket change. Guys in general need to stop whining so much about spending money on girls.

[Lucas88]

@Lucas88 @Pixel--Dude

60 Euros an hour? I've probably only spent about $200 on my girlfriend for going on dates so far and have spent somewhere between 50-100 hours with her in only about a month. Even with those cheap ass Spanish prices, you'd still need $3,000-$6,000 to get that much time. Why would anyone go to a brothel for $60 when they can just go back to their wife at home?

I really don't understand why guys, all my life, have whined about the money they spend on dates so much. I mean, $200 in a month is practically pocket change. Guys in general need to stop whining so much about spending money on girls.

Did you even read what I wrote? Lol.

My comment wasn't even about money. It was about how my habit of seeing prostitutes made me more promiscuous because it encouraged my addiction to the pursuit of certain kinds of female beauty that I probably couldn't get in real life.

I wrote it with just one paragraph and in plain English. How could you not understand what I wrote? Why did you changed the topic to one of money and men who supposedly whine about spending money on women? Lol.

Are you pulling a WilliamSmith and logging on drunk today, Outcast?

[CaptainSkelebob]

I wouldnt know what it means to be a good father
My own daddy left me and my ma when I was young
I had to become the man of the house at a young age and I had to be strong for my ma!!!
Its possible I could have kids out there somewhere
Im like a big bee buzzing around with my giant f***ing stinger fellas and pollinating all the little flowers out there!!!
If I do have kids out there then they have the same start I did!!! Luckily they will have my superior genes and most likely survive
I might even have a beer with em when theyre 18
I learned from young that in this world you have to be strong to survive
I saw this in docunentarys about animals and bature
We aint so different
We are just smart apes
Well.....
Some of us are smart abyway

[MrMan]

All the apostles, except James who was dead, wrote a letter to the Gentile believers to abstain from fornication.

That might have been good advice for them. Is it good advice for us? Obviously not. In Acts they formed a commune. Does that mean that all Christians must be communists? You are just taking things out of context to justify a branch of Protestant feminism.

There is no command, "Thou must live in a commune" in the Bible. People give and shared of their own free will. When Ananias lied about giving the whole price of he land he sold, Peter asked Ananias after the land was sold, wasn't the money at his disposal.

Why would it be wrong for first century Christian men to have sex with prostitutes but not for modern Christians. That doesn't make sense.

[MrMan]

@Tsar has a much more realistic view of how two virgins meeting each other and getting married will value each other more. If we did a social experiment I reckon the virgins would stay together and the young lads who slept with prostitutes would end up sleeping around or continuing to see prostitutes.

@Outcast9428 argues that encounters with prostitutes can prepare a young man for a monogamous life later down the line, but I know that in some men it can have the opposite effect. I started seeing prostitutes in my mid 20s while I was living in Spain and it only made me more promiscuous. I learned that I could just pay as little as 60 euros for a sexual encounter for a smoking hot, modelesque Latina with a perfect hourglass figure and much more attractive than any girl I could get naturally and then dating aesthetically mediocre girls in the real world just lost its appeal. I even became addicted to certain types of beauty and perfected physical features and reasoned that encounters with prostitutes are a better deal than having a monogamous relationship with one aesthetically mediocre woman. Given that I really fixate on aesthetics, I'd say that porn and escorts have made me more promiscuous than I would normally be.

Exactly. And wouldn't having prostitutes so readily available only make it easier for men to cheat on their wives when they can have a discreet encounter for 60 euros? He'd already have experience with them in @Outcast9428's envisioned society, so it would be easy. And according to @Cornfed it wouldn't even be immoral either.

I'm not against prostitutes existing, but I don't agree they benefit relationships in any way at all. It's more of an easy way to make lots of money fast. The Hungarian prostitute I went to see was my only positive encounter with a prostitute and she told me over a cup of tea that she had a boyfriend and she was only doing what she was doing because it was the easiest way to make as much money as possible as quickly as possible. The reason she wanted to do this was so that she could fight her ex husband in court and get custody of her kids. Her ex husband was apparently some rich business man who hired top lawyers to win the custody battle, because like she said: "in this world if you have money you have a voice. If you don't have money you don't have a voice."

I wonder if the rich ex-husband's lawyers hired PIs who found out the ex was a prostitute, let the info out in court, and she lost custody for being a whore.

[MrMan]

I learned that I could just pay as little as 60 euros for a sexual encounter for a smoking hot, modelesque Latina with a perfect hourglass figure and much more attractive than any girl I could get naturally and then dating aesthetically mediocre girls in the real world just lost its appeal. I even became addicted to certain types of beauty and perfected physical features and reasoned that encounters with prostitutes are a better deal than having a monogamous relationship with one aesthetically mediocre woman. Given that I really fixate on aesthetics, I'd say that porn and escorts have made me more promiscuous than I would normally be.

I never slept with a prostitute. I just married a really beautiful woman that fit the aesthetic needs along with the character and spiritual criteria I was looking for.

I took my wife out to a buffet, and a young woman I'd never met came up to me and said, "Is that your wife? She is beautiful." I said, "Thank you."

Back when I was younger, my wife probably heard stuff like that. Compliments toward me are a little rarer than they used to be. She's held up really, really well for her age.

[Cornfed]

Why would it be wrong for first century Christian men to have sex with prostitutes but not for modern Christians. That doesn't make sense.

You would want to think of Paul as a salesman. To the gentiles he emphasized faith over works, even though that is stupid, because talking about works would be taken as meaning people had to adopt all Jewish laws and that would have been unsalable. To people who were already Christian and largely his fellow salesmen he said to be keep their heads down in terms of sex, drinking etc. to not embarrass themselves in front of the pagans. Those were contradictory positions, but they make sense in terms of selling the religion at that time. Neither position should be seen as a recipe for a productive society moving forward and in fact neither was.

Keep in mind that Paul was a pharisee scumbag who was converted and used by God probably because of his slimy manipulative skills. He is like many other characters in the Bible - the right man for the job at the time.

[MrMan]

@MrMan and @Tsar

I don't know, I feel like y'all are somehow being more autistic about this issue then I am. I mean, I am already a very "black and white" thinker so to speak. But I still realize that you just can't be so extreme about this. Y'all don't accept any middle ground between virgin and slut and Tsar, I'm sorry, but that rule is really really holding you back when it comes to dating. I can understand saying "I won't date a girl with a double digit partner count." But the whole "she must be a virgin" thing. I mean, if you date a girl who's only slept with one guy or two guys, its basically the same as dating a virgin. She's still really inexperienced, hasn't been jaded by frequent heartbreak, and the chances that her boyfriend was bad or mediocre in bed are really high.

And MrMan, you're basically saying 97% of women are whores who have defiled themselves and only 3% of women out there are good. Even my mother has defiled herself by your standards even though my father is the only man she ever slept with. I mean, I respect you for having followed through on your beliefs, but not everybody can do that.

I don't know the stats on who has defiled themselves in this way. But it could be 97% per marriage in US culture nowadays. There were much better stats several generations back.

What do you call a woman who has sex with a man for $1000? A prostitute, right? Her price is $1000?

What do you call a woman who has sex with a man for $5? A prostitute, right? Some people may think she is lower class.

What do you call a woman who has sex with a man for $0? In the 1800's, 'prostitute' referred to someone who had sex outside of marriage whether money exchanged hands or not. Since then it took on a legal definition that involved paying money.

But it is all the same thing. A woman who sleeps around for $1000 should not look down on the one who does it for $5. But there are a lot of women who strangely look down on the woman who does it for $5, when she sleeps with a man who is not her husband for free. It is fornication.

Many men and women in our culture have prostituted themselves. Btw, the stats are likely better in some other countries.

I believe God can forgive sin. Personally, I did not want to marry a non-virgin. Theoretically, I would have considered a widow who had only been with her late husband, but practically, as a young man, widows weren't really in my consideration set. If I were widowed (widowered?) I might consider that as an alternative. That would be the only situation in which I would consider a single mother, also. But I expect to grow old with my lovely wife, if God grants us the years of this life and the Lord Jesus doesn't come back and we put on immortality first.

If another Christian wants to marry a girl who slept around but repented, I do not oppose that. Personally, that was not what I wanted. I waited also.

It is also very normal for sincere Christians not to sleep around before marriage.

And I do consider it worse for a woman to sleep with lots of men than to sleep with only one man and marry him. Also, research showed that women who had had multiple sex partners prior to marriage had higher rates of 'marital disruption.' It's kind of old research (Teachman, 1990, Journal of Marriage and Family). Women who had slept with their husbands prior to marriage did not show the same tendency toward divorce and marriage problems as those with multiple partners.

What I don't get with you is if you want to be a Christian, why not go all the way in. If you read the words of Jesus, don't you get the idea that He wants you to take an 'extreme stance' in actually loving Him and obeying Him? Do you think He likes luke warmness? Have you actually read the Bible?

[Outcast9428]

What I don't get with you is if you want to be a Christian, why not go all the way in. If you read the words of Jesus, don't you get the idea that He wants you to take an 'extreme stance' in actually loving Him and obeying Him? Do you think He likes luke warmness? Have you actually read the Bible?

I have read some of the Bible, but I do not know it as well as you do. Its a long book, it will take some time to read through.

I see the basis behind all of the rules... Including the rules against fornication... I understand the intent behind them, and agree with them. However, I also think that those rules were created in a time period where the circumstances and social norms were extremely different from our own. If arranged marriages were normal, and socially acceptable in our society again, then I would agree with you that people should not have sex before marriage. But the fact of the matter is, we do not live in a culture where it is acceptable to have an arranged marriage where you may marry somebody you may have met a week ago, or a month ago or whatever. At the time that these rules were written, it was acceptable and nobody would've imagined life looking any differently. Back then, it really was a cut and dry case. If you were truly serious about the girl, then you would marry her before having sex with her. Fornication back then wasn't that different from having a one night stand today because people did not wait around for years and years before getting married like people today do. So insisting on fornicating when you could just ask her to marry you right there didn't make much sense for a serious, long term minded person.

But doing that today simply isn't practical. I really do believe my girlfriend is the one for me. If I was alive centuries ago, I would undoubtedly have asked her to marry me at this point. And I have no doubts that she would say yes. Even in our modern day in age, I still believe she would say yes, even as early in the relationship as this is. But our parents, our families, and even my friends would be like "wtf?" Everyone would tell us it was a bad idea, and doing something like that might cause her parents to view me with suspicion. I don't need that kind of drama going into our marriage.

Don't worry, I don't plan to wait around for years to marry her. But I certainly cannot ask her to marry me after one month of dating. She wanted to have sex though, she wanted it really really badly. And I already made her wait until we had been dating for a month. If I had told her "no we must wait until marriage." That would have hurt our relationship... A lot. This does not mean that she is a slut looking for a short term fling, she is absolutely, head over heels in love with me. She loves me more then I ever thought a girl would love me. Her intense love for me, and her trust in me, is exactly why it was so hard for her to wait any longer. And at some point, you just feel like "why am I doing this to us? Is there even any point to this? We are in love after-all."

The truth is, expecting people to wait 6-12 months even before having sex... Even that isn't realistic. When the floodgates of love open up, it doesn't trickle in, it rages through like a stampeding bull. Trying to obey any kind of timeline is virtually impossible, even for an autist like me.

Jesus wanted people to be in love before having sex, he wanted people to choose a partner for life and not to dump people they had sex with. His reasons for wanting this make perfect sense and I agree with them. At the time he was preaching to people, the way such behaviors would manifest itself would be by waiting until you were married before having sex. But that isn't really the case anymore because the culture has changed so much. People who wait until they are in committed relationships are waiting about as long as people in Jesus's time period waited to be married. So the mentality is pretty much the same, but people have to adjust, to some extent, to the culture around them or else functioning in life becomes really difficult.