Being a "Nice Guy" Actually Does Work...

[Outcast9428]

Reading that article, the statistics they are citing are simply too extreme to be accurate. It’s possible that large numbers of people were accused of sodomy but 2 thirds of the men engaging in it? No way. Even modern day Tel Aviv doesn’t have anywhere near that much faggotry. Something like 33% of men in Tel Aviv have done gay things and that’s in a city where there is a kind of pressure to be gay. Why would twice as many men be gay in a society that strongly discourages it and gives people no reason to be gay?

I suspect a lot of men got falsely accused. If that many people were getting accused of sodomy then clearly the society wasn’t as accepting as the article is making it out to be. They may have believed that sodomy was an increasing issue in the city and thus launched a kind of witch hunt. Perhaps it was increasing in prevalence… Hard to say. But to act like most of the guys were faggots doesn’t line up with the biological reality that most men are completely heterosexual and would find acts like that to be disgusting.

The percentage is certainly trumped up by false accusations but that doesn't necessarily mean that faggotry wasn't rife since Fiorenza (and it's Fiorenza, by the way, not that butchered Anglo "Florence" pronunciation) did have a reputation for it. The fact that faggotry was being investigated so much by the church authorities may suggest that it was somewhat prevalent at that time.

About 7% of men are either gay or bisexual to some degree in modern Western culture. But the rate of bisexuality is known to vary by culture and epoch. It may have been higher in Renaissance Italy, especially in the wealthy and prosperous cosmopolitan cities such as Fiorenza. The Mediterranean soul is less moralistic than the Anglo or Germanic soul, even with Catholicism. It is also more rebellious and less concerned with rules. This is why I think that bisexuality could indeed have been more prevalent than usual in Renaissance Fiorenza.

Moreover, homosexual acts were more or less tolerated as long as they followed a culturally acceptable pattern with the social superior assuming the active role and the social inferior the passive role. This was common in Latin cultures. As per the article, it was usually only when this culturally accepted pattern was violated that punitive action was taken, as was the case of the "prolific sodomite" Salvi Panuzzi. This semi-acceptable status of certain homosexual acts might have served to take away much of the stigma, especially among those who weren't devout Catholics.

Finally, as the article explains, the faggotry in Fiorenza was being encouraged and justified to some degree in Neo-Platonist circles with the belief that "heavenly love was more properly directed towards men". Maybe that kind of thought accounted for an increase in prevalence.

I could believe that. It’s certainly possible that men with homosexual inclinations may have left the rural villages that they were born in and were drawn towards the cities where they had a chance of finding somebody who was like them.

[WilliamSmith]

@WilliamSmith

Yeah, it could have just been communication problems. Maybe the way you were wording it made me think you were saying something else. I think using the term “tradcuck” a lot wasn’t really helping. But if it was all communication errors then I do apologize if I took your words the wrong way.

@Outcast9428
Ahhh, I'm finally catching up on this thread, this was one I sort of regretted missing out on when I had to leave, LOL. But don't worry about it, no apology necessary.

I did not have you in mind when I mentioned "tradcuck squealers" (as I think I put it), but surely you must have seen from the things a lot of those whining misogynistic guys say that they're total degenerates and their claims of moral superiority and rubber-stamping themselves "traditionalists" is BS?
For example, a lot of them whine constantly in self-pity about their manginosphere "men's rights" pathologies while saying they should be able to buy and sell women to be their "tradwives" like women were livestock (since these males have it in their warped minds that they can't breed by actually becoming appealing to any kind of woman at all), but they're not even remotely nice either even if they were given a "tradwife," and on top of that they start talking about how they want subsidies and UBI and shit so they can "f**k whores" (as they put it, I'd never say something mean like that about "pro" women even though I'm not one of their clients, LOL).
So those assholes think they somehow have a rubber stamp to go around branding themselves "traditionalists," but obviously it's all talk and they've just got themselves into a big nasty circle-jerk of feeling sorry for themselves while spewing hatred at women, all while refusing to do anything that'd actually help them succeed with any women (unlike you, who actually can get nice girls while still being a nice man, right? ).
So my point about them (not you) is: They're OBVIOUSLY even worse moral degenerates than comparatively harmless womanizers like me and @Lucas88, even if you somehow think it's horrible that we like going around and getting it on with easy going women.

[WilliamSmith]

If a woman kills you then she's shit to begin with, you have bad taste in females
my man if you're dating girls that will murder you. That means even if she suspects you to be up to something
she can get mad, lose her shit and murder you. f**k that.

@WanderingProtagonist
We'll duck the issue of whether I have "bad taste in females" (LOL), but I was partly guilty of hyperbole by saying some women I personally like might "kill" if a man tried to treat them like !@#$ (though it's not totally out of the question, because there's some women who learn through the school of hard knocks how men can be abusive, and absolutely won't take anymore !@#$ from men anymore after they've had enough, so they might get passionate enough to get violent if a man tried to treat them abusively, and you never know where that could lead ).
But my point wasn't that anyone should prefer violent women, LOL, I was just saying that being a man and yet also being "nice" or a gentleman as long as you're still the one wearing the pants in the relationship isn't bad at all, because women who won't take any shit from men anymore are pretty common and can be very good quality in my experience, (especially 30+ years old women where it's much more common for them to stop taking shit and drama from the kind of men they've dealt with in the past).

Most men that mistreat women usually have no nice or polite
traits what so ever about them but certain women are still drawn to them. Normally women that will out right murder a man that mistreated them know the man was shit to begin with but purposely date those type of men so they can have drama and shit in their lives. f**k those women. If a woman had to tell me "if you mistreat me I will kill you." I wouldn't even f**k with her ass, that's someone who is already unhinged.

Definitely true, as long as the emphasis is on "certain women."
The problem is some of those "blackpill" incels (not you) are trying to make it sound like ALL women want to get treated like garbage and will only go with either thugs and goons or obnoxious rich dweebs like the Tate brothers, which is all BS.
But yeah, you're right some women deliberately do seek out damaged men and seek out drama, and so a man needs some vetting skills to avoid getting into a mess with those kinds of women.

Actually vetting out women to avoid sociopaths or high-drama trainwrecks is an interesting topic maybe we should return to sometime @Lucas88. I have my instincts and opinions but never really thought about it systematically...
(And I'd love to know that even more from women's POV so I could teach daughters and possibly female friends how to vet out quality men, possibly with@ Pixel--dude's agreement since he has a nice daughter that he loves and none of us want daughters dragging back some POS or getting pimped, etc)..... but I'll stay on topic for now.

[WilliamSmith]

Yes, it's important to be nice to women. I know this from personal experience. My Peruvian ex-girlfriend told me that she enjoyed being with me and always felt safe because I always showed her respect and made her feel appreciated. However, as you rightfully allude in your post above, being nice comes with a condition.

That condition is sufficient masculinity, dominance and sexual attraction.

If all a guy has is his "niceness" but not enough masculinity or dominance to be perceived as attractive or to command respect and not enough sexual attraction to excite a romantic prospect, then he'll be nothing more than that boring "nice guy" talked about so often in the "Red Pill" literature and in most cases will be confined to the "friendzone". In my case, my Peruvian ex-girlfriend appreciated my gentlemanly demeanor and my effort to always treat her right, but at the same time she loved it when I took charge, acted like a leader, displayed masculine behavior, did masculine activities like martial arts, and aggressively dominated her in the bedroom. At first, I was too nice and not quite dominant enough due to the feminized education I got from my mother about "respecting women" and whatnot and my Peruvian ex-girlfriend didn't appreciate that, but I quickly learned the ropes and brought out my inner masculine instincts which had been suppressed by an overly emasculated society and then everything got much better. My Peruvian ex-girlfriend was much more satisfied than before.

@Lucas88
Great post, great personal example of your Peruvian girlfriend proving the point where you had the benefit of getting the full before/after results where you needed to turn up the dominant masculinity a little (but without ever being "not nice")!

Women like masculinity. They don't want some weakboy pansy who doesn't even act like a man. For most women, that's a major turnof...

Totally true, and a good # of women in days of yore have also told me this kind of thing outright too, so it's not just some of us men saying it to try to help. ("When it comes to relationships with girls, be as much of a big stud as you can" was one memorable slightly paraphrased quotation from blond chick from rural Washington with glasses and big knockers, but I also managed to gradually get the idea from reading romance novels and watching movies with leading men that I know the women viewers liked as much or even more than the men.)

At the same time, many young men today don't even know how to act like men. They've been biologically feminized by all of the harmful toxins that have massively flooded our everyday environment in recent decades and then psychologically feminized by a sick society which now views masculinity as a problem and encourages boys and young men to act like sissies. It's no wonder that a significant subset of young men are unable to attract a woman, no matter how "nice" they try to be. They simply lack most if not all of the masculine traits which most women find attractive.
So yes, the situation is nuanced, just as @MarcosZeitola alluded earlier in this discussion. It's best to combine a reasonable level of niceness with rugged masculinity and a natural air of dominance.

+1 for sure. But none of that is incompatible with being legitimately "nice" to women either, which should be good news if "incels" would listen to reason on this.

There's a reason why I advocate gym and combat sports training for men. Not only do such activities masculinize the body and raise testosterone levels but also allow one to cultivate masculine behavior, reconnect with one's masculine instincts and develop the combat skills necessary to protect a woman and one's loved ones (all in conjunction with the cultivation of discipline and the channeling of one's warlike instincts into something constructive). In order to be truly masculine, a man has to do masculine things. He has to be able to back it up with tangible actions. Otherwise he'll just remain a pathetic posturer LARPing as an "alpha".

Yeah I got more and more in the grip of feeling that way when I was in my early 20's and surrounded in hot girls when I'd moved to a larger town where I wanted to make sure if the shit started hitting the fan and other men got in my face I'd be able to defend the women and dispatch any potential antagonists, LOL.
I always liked masculine stuff long before then, but had no training or men teaching me anything, but I became totally dissatisfied with my lack of trained combat skills so started seeking out MMA. (The irony is once I started scoring with women, I ended up postponing my MMA training so I had enough time to chase tail, LOL. Part of the problem was I hadn't anticipated at the time how the 2nd Amendment would be in major danger to the degree it is now and thought I could probably rely on firearms for my lifetime, and I regret stopping MMA now, because hand-to-hand combat and machete fighting and grappling and so on are really practical now that I want to live on a boat fulltime in the tropics where it can be difficult (or impossible, depending on the place) to own guns. I'm getting off topic now though. Good post.

[My life is garbage]

Being a nice guy doesn't work in the west.