Endless Complaining and Monkey Spanking.

[momopi]

I agree that the USA is culturally f***ed, but it's not necessarily easier or less stressful to live in most foreign cultures - especially when you are used to the convenience of the USA. If you haven't lived abroad before, be ready to be shocked at how homesick you might get after a few months. Strange food, abusive people, and lack of real conversational partners can do that to you.

You speak the truth. This is all true 100%.

Yes true, but it also depends on the person.
There are people who just don't adapt well and don't have a sense of adventure, these people should not move abroad!!! All they do is complain, "ohh this horrible healthy Korean food we hate it" LOL. Some idiot over here said the other day "a big mac is healthier than bibimbop" (korean vegis and rice). So go back home dude, nobody wants to listen to a complainer!
For people who can adapt well and make both local and expat friends, life will be whatever you make it. But there will still be moments when you encounter homesickness, lack of conversation partners, etc. It's true.
That's life, it can't be all one side and not the other.

The issue is not with which dish is healthier. If the person simply dislike the taste, he's not going to eat it.

Ideally, if the person simply goes for what he likes to eat, then he's happy. But self-conflicted people might prefer the look of a bibimbap, but dislike the taste and would rather eat mac and cheese. So the person whines about not being able to get a bibimbap that tastes like mac and cheese. Goes on the internet to complain bitterly that bibimbap doesn't taste like mac and cheese, and ask why there isn't a happy medium (mac and cheese bibimbap) in easy reach.

[leavingusa]

In regards to this entire thread, the endless lamenting about Western women does detract from the purpose of this site. Western women are infected by feminism and will likely never recover. Even my three year old cousin can see that.

However, most men, and this is an unfortunate truth, aren't ready, and never will be ready to live abroad. They've got too much Eurocentrism in them and have inherited it from the worst wing of it, the United Snakes of America. America breeds and awards sociopaths, both through relationships and entertainment(i.e., bread and circuses model).

I believe Maker 55 hit it on the head. White men are reactionary nationalists, especially white men not "privileged" enough to be a member of the elite white families that created this Diaspora we call America. They aren't so much protesting feminism, they are protesting the fact that Black men have access to "their women", and can now succeed, outperform and outrank them in career fields.

Wrong.

The median wealth of white households is 20 times that of black households and 18 times that of Hispanic households

http://www.pewsocialtrends.org/2011/07/ ... hispanics/

What little success is through affirmative action. That's what we resent. Take away your government jobs and quotas and your family will be eating shit out of a brown paper bag. Of course faced with the truth, you will say you are "oppressed" and need more.

Then to read white men instructing black Americans to criticize the actions of other black Americans is even more laughable. White men, who as a group have committed the most murder, incest, pedophilia and are a shame to the world over have no place to advise Black people on anything.

Typical, you cry out in pain as you strike us.
http://bjs.ojp.usdoj.gov/content/homicide/race.cfm



Interracial Crime

Of the nearly 770,000 violent interracial crimes committed every year involving blacks and whites, blacks commit 85 percent and whites commit 15 percent.
Blacks commit more violent crime against whites than against blacks. Forty-five percent of their victims are white, 43 percent are black, and 10 percent are Hispanic. When whites commit violent crime, only three percent of their victims are black.
Blacks are an estimated 39 times more likely to commit a violent crime against a white than vice versa, and 136 times more likely to commit robbery.
Blacks are 2.25 times more likely to commit officially-designated hate crimes against whites than vice versa.

http://www.colorofcrime.com/colorofcrime2005.html

[Teal Lantern]

After endless thousands of posts establishing that "American women bad" and that American and many Western Societies are often social wastelands, how many of you will make a plan to actually live somewhere else and build a different perhaps more satisfying life elsewhere?

<snip>

Find your new world and live in it....

Outwest
Misamis Oriental, Mindanao

Yes. Collecting info about various places and plans being made.
If the 'I Hate Whitey/Blackie' dynamic this thread demonstrates is any indication of what's going on across the country, things are going to get a lot worse. Not a battle I care to be a part of -- especially if eating poo out of a brown paper bag is the end prize.

[ChosenTraveler]

In regards to this entire thread, the endless lamenting about Western women does detract from the purpose of this site. Western women are infected by feminism and will likely never recover. Even my three year old cousin can see that.

However, most men, and this is an unfortunate truth, aren't ready, and never will be ready to live abroad. They've got too much Eurocentrism in them and have inherited it from the worst wing of it, the United Snakes of America. America breeds and awards sociopaths, both through relationships and entertainment(i.e., bread and circuses model).

I believe Maker 55 hit it on the head. White men are reactionary nationalists, especially white men not "privileged" enough to be a member of the elite white families that created this Diaspora we call America. They aren't so much protesting feminism, they are protesting the fact that Black men have access to "their women", and can now succeed, outperform and outrank them in career fields.

Wrong.

The median wealth of white households is 20 times that of black households and 18 times that of Hispanic households

http://www.pewsocialtrends.org/2011/07/ ... hispanics/

What little success is through affirmative action. That's what we resent. Take away your government jobs and quotas and your family will be eating shit out of a brown paper bag. Of course faced with the truth, you will say you are "oppressed" and need more.

Then to read white men instructing black Americans to criticize the actions of other black Americans is even more laughable. White men, who as a group have committed the most murder, incest, pedophilia and are a shame to the world over have no place to advise Black people on anything.

Typical, you cry out in pain as you strike us.
http://bjs.ojp.usdoj.gov/content/homicide/race.cfm



Interracial Crime

Of the nearly 770,000 violent interracial crimes committed every year involving blacks and whites, blacks commit 85 percent and whites commit 15 percent.
Blacks commit more violent crime against whites than against blacks. Forty-five percent of their victims are white, 43 percent are black, and 10 percent are Hispanic. When whites commit violent crime, only three percent of their victims are black.
Blacks are an estimated 39 times more likely to commit a violent crime against a white than vice versa, and 136 times more likely to commit robbery.
Blacks are 2.25 times more likely to commit officially-designated hate crimes against whites than vice versa.

http://www.colorofcrime.com/colorofcrime2005.html

What's interesting is that the statistic you've flaunted bears no relevance to what I've said. Because you and many white men still benefit from the deceptive system that your forefathers set up, you are by birth a colonizer. Again, the challenges that confront white men in society are of no concern to me, for it's their karma.

I'm not excusing the actions of some blacks, and by far, my greatest disappointment has been with American blacks for many of them are too Eurocentric on the inside. You've diverted to the typical white man confusion strategy where you've attempted to play emotionalism into this conversation.

As I told your colonizer friend Lavezzi, your comments would work on "C-Roc" or "ShaQuaQua" but don't work well on a black man versed in his culture. Your posts are that of anger that your perceived status on the food chain is threatened. Perhaps it was never your people's position to begin with?

[lavezzi]

As I told your colonizer friend Lavezzi, your comments would work on "C-Roc" or "ShaQuaQua" but don't work well on a black man versed in his culture. Your posts are that of anger that your perceived status on the food chain is threatened. Perhaps it was never your people's position to begin with?

my ancestors were colonized and brutalized just like yours were by those you conviniently label "the white man" who were really just a bunch of humans who have been dead for a very long time. they happened to possess a lot of power and poor ethics due to the time period they lived in.

in this day and age, the white people you meet on the street in europe and north america are the most ethical humans on the planet bar none, and very few if any worry about their race's "perceived status", that is for insecure black people to do.

[skateboardstephen]

As I told your colonizer friend Lavezzi, your comments would work on "C-Roc" or "ShaQuaQua" but don't work well on a black man versed in his culture. Your posts are that of anger that your perceived status on the food chain is threatened. Perhaps it was never your people's position to begin with?

my ancestors were colonized and brutalized just like yours were by those you conviniently label "the white man" who were really just a bunch of humans who have been dead for a very long time. they happened to possess a lot of power and poor ethics due to the time period they lived in.

in this day and age, the white people you meet on the street in europe and north america are the most ethical humans on the planet bar none, and very few if any worry about their race's "perceived status", that is for insecure black people to do.

Where whites at one time discriminated against? yeah sure especially the Italians and the Irish but the difference is that they were eventually assimilated into society where as blacks never were that that is the difference so you can`t really play that card because it is comparing apples to oranges.If black people don`t question their position in society(like most blacks in Brazil) then they won`t see any progress. Like where i am for example you hardly see any blacks in positions of power and whites in Brazil seem to like it that way.Salvador is full of blacks but the city never had a black mayor even though they have ran. The favela i live in (an amazing experience) basically runs on it`s own.Besides me waking up and seeing a guy with a machine gun standing around every now and then the place is pretty much ignored the people here (mostly black) do shit themselves and don`t complain ever.
People like my fiance who is Afro-brazilian tries to get an education but every time we turn around the professors go on strike or decide not to come into work while others of higher classes (normally white)can get educations undisturbed and private universities.
In other cities where whites mostly live like curitiba or in porto alegre they have better public transportation and operating metro systems.The metro in salvador has already been built with brand new trans just sitting there and has not moved for 13 years now.

[Maker55]

Even the Greeks learned everything they knew from the BLACK EGYPTIANS.

The Egyptians were white, sorry.[/img]

Sorry, but NO.

Evidence strongly suggests that ancient Egyptians were neither white nor negroid.

It is the southern NUBIANS who in ancient Egyptian art are depicted with jet black skin, afro hair, and negroid features such as big lips and wide nose:







Here is some art depicting Egyptians vanquishing Nubians. Note the different skin tones:



Here is another picture. At the top middle are the Nubians. Next to them on the right are Caucasians. At the bottom middle are the EGYPTIANS:



The Egyptians clearly depicted themselves as a distinct group from the negroid Nubians. To say the Egyptians were "black" is misleading. To say they are "white" is also untrue.

National Geographic did a study in which Tutankhamens face was reconstructed. The Scientist who reconstructed the face were NOT AWARE that it was Tutankhamen they were reconstructing. This eliminates any Afrocentric/Eurocentric bias:



It is possible that Tutankhamen had negroid blood in him from interbreeding between the Egyptians and the Negroid Nubians. But on the whole his face has BRONZE colored skin and ALMOND shaped eyes. This strongly suggests that Tutankhamen was neither Negroid nor Caucasian.

Here is a picture of a mummy from Nubia:



Compare this to mummies from Egypt:

Hatshepshut



Unknown







These Egyptian mummies all had STRAIGHT hair (or wavy). This is NOT a negroid feature. Some hair was even colored RED and AUBURN.

The mummy from Nubia represents a negroid.

It is clear that Egyptians and Nubians were two SEPARATE GROUPS, as were the Egyptians and the whites.

And it is clear that the Egyptians were NOT Negroid.

Prior to 1830 it was accepted that the ancient Egyptians were black africans and called Nubia their homeland.

You guys are still spreading the lies about african civilization told by the racist europeans.

I even have a book with quotes from the greek philosphers who described the appearance of the black egyptians.

That's not true.

The wigs of ancient Egypt resembled negro hair.

The indo-eurpeans and muslims erased a lot of the african heritage of egypt as much as they could.

Do yourself a favor and read "The Destruction Of Black Civilization" and watch the DVDs "Hidden Colors" and "Hidden Colors 2". It's a documentary being showed around the world about the truth about african civilization.

Here's the trailer for it: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m3lABiHlOqw

You guys don't stop, do you?

[zboy1]

Maker, you ever thought about leaving the United States? As an Asian American, I can understand your angry and bitter feelings regarding race-relations in the country. Maybe you would do better to get away from this poisonous atmosphere and think about how you're going to move to another country?

[Voice of Reason]

Prior to 1830 it was accepted that the ancient Egyptians were black africans and called Nubia their homeland.

You guys are still spreading the lies about african civilization told by the racist europeans.

I even have a book with quotes from the greek philosphers who described the appearance of the black egyptians.

That's not true.

The wigs of ancient Egypt resembled negro hair.

The indo-eurpeans and muslims erased a lot of the african heritage of egypt as much as they could.

Do yourself a favor and read "The Destruction Of Black Civilization" and watch the DVDs "Hidden Colors" and "Hidden Colors 2". It's a documentary being showed around the world about the truth about african civilization.

Here's the trailer for it: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m3lABiHlOqw

You guys don't stop, do you?

Can you recommend sources that are NOT produced by biased Afrocentracists? Come on! That's just as unreliable as a source produced by Stormfront. Did it not occur to you that almost EVERY SINGLE "researcher" in that trailer was black? Have you not got any sources with a more BALANCED view?

Since when has negro hair been straight, wavy, blonde, or red? You are clearly delusional. Do you want more evidence? Here, have a look at this mummy. Nice afro!

http://africanhistory.about.com/od/egyp ... s-Yuya.htm

The Egyptians were most probably a DIVERSE mixtures of races. To portray them as "black" is NOT factual.

I notice you didn't comment on the Egyptian depictions. Yes…just IGNORE any conflicting evidence to your Afrocentric views.

Your problem is that you have been made to feel inferior and you think of yourself as a victim. So you counter-act this with flawed Afrocentric views. You hold onto this phantasmal view that you are noble and flawless, and that you come from greatness.

You don't view history with a level head.

What you don't realize is that you perpetuate the very racial BS that you yourself condemn.

You are blissfully unaware of the IRONY of your ways.

You want to put "whitey" down, like "whitey" has done to you in the past, even though "whitey" wasn't even ALIVE back then. You want to make "whitey" feel ashamed. You seek REVENGE, so you twist the facts. In the process you undermine the achievements of great civilizations such an Ancient Greece, and portray these achievements as your own.

You are MORE racist than the very whites you condemn.

[Voice of Reason]

Maker, you ever thought about leaving the United States? As an Asian American, I can understand your angry and bitter feelings regarding race-relations in the country. Maybe you would do better to get away from this poisonous atmosphere and think about how you're going to move to another country?

He needs to do something more constructive with his life, as opposed to subverting history.

[terminator]

I am with Jackal. A case in point- the main looooong bitching and complaining with even there being bitching boards and all about, say, Russian women online is mainly about them not acting like Americans when we bring them home. Well, they look like us, they should act like us. Then they don't and they get homesick, etc. Because well, they, too, expect Americans to act like Russians. Such naivite and unpreparedness!

In the Philippines the language is English in school and even in other countries you can send your kids to international schools. So, there you go. And being dual national and mixed blood they will be higher class there, while they will be lower class here.

I believe in one thing- if you want something real bad, you can sit down, make a plan and make it work.

Russia sucks with visas and they are getting worse but still when I was there I saw Africans and they have wives there and one even got citizenship and ran for mayor. Russia is a federation and they have quotas for immigrants per oblast
or republic. The farther from the center, the easier to get into the quota. Most Americans do not even know what an oblast is, cannot read Russian or speak it and cannot function in that society. For them, some English speaking country should be better. The Philippines is again the only one left. Maybe Jamaica, Guayana, etc.

Ukraine is easier and so is Lithuania. And also, why would you need citizenship there? You can just have permanent residency and/or long- term renewable visas.

I like this Tagalog proverb

Kung gusto mo, ibat iba ang paraan.
Kung ayaw mo, ibat iba ang dahilan

If you ( really) want something, there are many ways ( to get it)
If you don't ( really) want it, there are many ( ways to make) excuses.

Actually, you can't make it happen because the new country can make it too expensive to stay and talking of ex-communist countries' bureaucracies - you have no hope to get any permits/permissions as the staff will take out their shitty lives on you - but don't believe me - just go and marry a poor Ukranian girl and see how quickly they break up your family - definitely within one year unless you have thousands of pounds to pay bribes (which no local job will pay that much).

[terminator]

But the irony is that a thread complaining about the previous type of complaining is really just another type of complaining here! I suppose that the type of complaining which is considered fashionable here changes over time. lol
But I agree that endless complaining in any form is unproductive.

What you gain in p***y you will lose in lifestyle, if I could make the same living and live in similar conditions I'd say sure. Like someone else said you are dooming your children to grow up in a third world country and sacrificing your future in most cases. Some of you may regret these decisions when your sex drive starts to wane.

It's true that tradeoffs often have be made, but be sure that you're not making decisions just based on stereotypes which are just fantasies created by the American media. You seem to have the perspective of a typical American: "Only money matters!" And which countries are you rushing to label as "third-world"?? Anywhere which isn't the US, UK, France, Germany, or Canada? lol

Sometimes poor countries present some advantages for children, especially if they have a good education system (which might very well be superior to the American one), but *gasp* your child may have to study in *gasp* the foreign language which is spoken in that country (most Americans are extremely uncomfortable at the idea of their children speaking a foreign language like a native because this would threaten their holy "all-American" identity. lol )

A lot of guys on this forum really just want someplace which is identical to America, but where the women are easier. Those guys should stay in America, in my opinion. Typical Americans who have absolutely no desire to adapt to a foreign culture and absolutely no desire to learn a foreign language will probably not be happy in a foreign country over the long term.

I've come to agree with you! The time to go abroad - especially to Eastern Europe was the early 1990s as girls were very interested in foreign men then and the visa laws were easy - e.g. just try to get a visa to Russia for a solid year now - its impossible. You could live there illegally, but when you do go home (e.g. mom's funeral) they won't let you back in to Russia. I've decided it really is impossible to move to the country of your choice now because you will have NO HOPE of making a living, getting citizenship or making it financially (maybe you will do one, but not all). We might have to settle to live by ourselves all our lives somewhere inour home country, as that's what will happen to most guys now anyway.

Such an extremely negative view of living in foreign countries is typically American. Most Americans will want to give such a speech so that they can justify staying in the US.
You are declaring that every country besides the US is hopeless to live in?? Based on what info? The countries of the world are each very different with different cultures and different laws. Using Russia as an example and then assuming that the situation in every former Soviet bloc country is exactly the same is just stupid.
You can usually get citizenship in European countries if you live there for about 6 to 9 years (the length of time differs by country) and can pass a history/government test in that country's language. But most Americans would rather die than learn a foreign language well. lol

xxxx

You are very niave to think you can pick a country and go live there and get citizenship! What if you have an illness or convictions?? Here is my evidence for Russia: http://www.sydneyrussianconsulate.com/visa.html Can you go through this red-tape and at the end get a 3 month visa and then have to leave for 3 months? What job would let you do this?? The fact is the world has moved on and most guys cannot live in the country of their choice, so they will take 2nd best and might as well stay at home and jerk-off to the internet.

[NorthAmericanguy]

my ancestors were colonized and brutalized just like yours were by those you conviniently label "the white man" who were really just a bunch of humans who have been dead for a very long time. they happened to possess a lot of power and poor ethics due to the time period they lived in.

in this day and age, the white people you meet on the street in europe and north america are the most ethical humans on the planet bar none, and very few if any worry about their race's "perceived status", that is for insecure black people to do.

Where whites at one time discriminated against? yeah sure especially the Italians and the Irish but the difference is that they were eventually assimilated into society where as blacks never were that that is the difference so you can`t really play that card because it is comparing apples to oranges.If black people don`t question their position in society(like most blacks in Brazil) then they won`t see any progress. Like where i am for example you hardly see any blacks in positions of power and whites in Brazil seem to like it that way.Salvador is full of blacks but the city never had a black mayor even though they have ran. The favela i live in (an amazing experience) basically runs on it`s own.Besides me waking up and seeing a guy with a machine gun standing around every now and then the place is pretty much ignored the people here (mostly black) do shit themselves and don`t complain ever.
People like my fiance who is Afro-brazilian tries to get an education but every time we turn around the professors go on strike or decide not to come into work while others of higher classes (normally white)can get educations undisturbed and private universities.
In other cities where whites mostly live like curitiba or in porto alegre they have better public transportation and operating metro systems.The metro in salvador has already been built with brand new trans just sitting there and has not moved for 13 years now.

Both above quotes sum up things pretty good. As far as Africans, like skateboardstephen said, Africans were never fully permitted to assimilate into European society (for example, just as how Whites are not permitted to fully assimilate into Thai society) but the problem with Afro American is that they refuse to leave America and all the other places that they were brought to and go back to Africa and take care of their own.

Africans outside of Africa just have no concept of looking out and taking care of their own. Every race looks after its own interest except for Africans and this how the Africans get the short end of the stick every time.

[NorthAmericanguy]

In regards to this entire thread, the endless lamenting about Western women does detract from the purpose of this site. Western women are infected by feminism and will likely never recover. Even my three year old cousin can see that.

However, most men, and this is an unfortunate truth, aren't ready, and never will be ready to live abroad. They've got too much Eurocentrism in them and have inherited it from the worst wing of it, the United Snakes of America. America breeds and awards sociopaths, both through relationships and entertainment(i.e., bread and circuses model).

I believe Maker 55 hit it on the head. White men are reactionary nationalists, especially white men not "privileged" enough to be a member of the elite white families that created this Diaspora we call America. They aren't so much protesting feminism, they are protesting the fact that Black men have access to "their women", and can now succeed, outperform and outrank them in career fields.

Then to read white men instructing black Americans to criticize the actions of other black Americans is even more laughable. White men, who as a group have committed the most murder, incest, pedophilia and are a shame to the world over have no place to advise Black people on anything.

Black men were the founders of civilization, when white men were sleeping in their own feces and no white civilization has ever been founded without the assistance or subjugation of another group to perform the heavy lifting. The homosexual ancient Greeks plagiarized their entire manuscripts from Kemet(Egypt) and even the American constitution was stolen from the Moorish Constitution.

Again, men with a proud history don't need to lie about their people's accomplishments.

I hear you CT.... But from my point of view, as a black man, it's hard for me to cosign the hate you have towards whites because all my life the only people who treated me horribly were American black men including the men in my family such as my father (who was never in my life) and uncle.

Apparently, I was not "hood" enough, not sexually rapacious enough, and I was too intellectual for American blacks so I was often the butt of jokes/abuse because I was not as "cool" and "down" like everybody else. And even up to this day, any problems that I have it is always with a black man, such as recently, I took my car into a black neighborhood to get my tire patched and the black guy (obviously on some kind of drugs) working at the shop tried to rip me off. And that's just the minor stuff because if we move to the major issues such as murder, the black males that I know that were murdered either personally or through friends were murdered at the hands of another black man.

My mother has had the same experiences because she was a pretty light skinned woman in her day, and so, all the darker black women would gang up on her and try to beat her up. This was back in the 1960's. So my mother has had white friends (for the past 30 years) because they treat her humanly and it's the same with me though my best friend who was white is now gone due to a motorcycle crash.

I kid you not, I have had ZERO problems with white American males and I was popular with them in high school as they would invite me to keg parties in the woods and such things. In fact, whites have improved my quality of life because as I got older, older white men showed me how to start/run a business to feed myself where all the elder black men in my family did not give a shit about me and left me to starve. How F*** up is that? I get more help from a non black, who is a stranger, but my own kind throws stones in front of my feet and finds humor and amusement in my downfall. This is just crazy! I can't trust American black men or American black women.



Anyhow, this is not a personal attract on you, and I do know some of the things you do such as Ancient Egypt, or how whites had gangs and were using organized crime in early America to feed themselves, but in 2012, blacks are f*** up because blacks refuse to look after and take care of their own.

[NorthAmericanguy]

Wrong.

The median wealth of white households is 20 times that of black households and 18 times that of Hispanic households

http://www.pewsocialtrends.org/2011/07/ ... hispanics/

What little success is through affirmative action. That's what we resent. Take away your government jobs and quotas and your family will be eating shit out of a brown paper bag. Of course faced with the truth, you will say you are "oppressed" and need more.


Typical, you cry out in pain as you strike us.
http://bjs.ojp.usdoj.gov/content/homicide/race.cfm



Interracial Crime

Of the nearly 770,000 violent interracial crimes committed every year involving blacks and whites, blacks commit 85 percent and whites commit 15 percent.
Blacks commit more violent crime against whites than against blacks. Forty-five percent of their victims are white, 43 percent are black, and 10 percent are Hispanic. When whites commit violent crime, only three percent of their victims are black.
Blacks are an estimated 39 times more likely to commit a violent crime against a white than vice versa, and 136 times more likely to commit robbery.
Blacks are 2.25 times more likely to commit officially-designated hate crimes against whites than vice versa.

http://www.colorofcrime.com/colorofcrime2005.html

At the end of the day, the crime that goes on with blacks is primarily directed towards other blacks such as my cousin who was killed a few months ago by another black man over a 4 wheeler.

Blacks commit crime, there is no denying this, but the average white person does not have to worry about it because they live far away from blacks. I mean, it's like looking at the alligators in a lake and getting upset that they're killers and they have big teeth.. What's the point in worrying about such things when you don't need to live in or even close to the lake with the alligators?

One other thing, whites commit crime too, but since at least the 1960's, whites have moved into white collar crime where the criminal activity is ambiguous, professionalized, and far less personal so while you're harping on blacks who you don't even live around doing this and that, in the meantime, you're getting shafted by your own in some way via high taxes, high gas prices, money lending scams, or fraudulent investments. Does Enron ring a bell? Bernie Madoff?